Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Darth Roxor]

Huehuehue, guns dun kill people, people kill people so craftung gunz es not combat skill

Jesus Christ there should be an option to ignore threads so that I'm not tempted to view this one again

 

[Dreaad]

Sneak isn't a skill that you use outside of combat. It's a combat skill. It doesn't have many uses outside of combat.

Ah I see, so for you avoiding combat altogether is also a combat skill?

 

[trais]

So, D&D saving throws aren't combat related, because they don't prevent damage directly, instead they only work under specific circumstances (i.e. when enemy uses attack that can be mitigated with saving throw). So it's totally not combat, because that specific attack can be only one input in long chain of unpredictable events.

No, that analogy also doesn't work. When an enemy does use that attack, the saving throw definitely affects it directly.

Same with durability - if you make an attack that does damage your weapon, every subsequent attack will be done with To-Hit debuff which definitely affects combat directly.

You can argue that saving throws are used more often than you will break your weapons/armors in PE - and I will agree with you - but only because I bet 50 brofists that the durability implementation will be the shittiest one possible: you'll click on "fix all my stuff" button every once in a while to get rid of some of the players gold, Diablo/WoW style.

 

[Excidium]

I'm p. sure he'll just copy the ones from D&D.

Nope. (last question)

http://i.imgur.com/JGX038n.png

"A little unconventional". The butthurt will be massive.

I know, I was joking. Sawyerist system would be something like the attribute system in GW2.

 

[Hormalakh]

Sneak isn't a skill that you use outside of combat. It's a combat skill. It doesn't have many uses outside of combat.

Ah I see, so for you avoiding combat altogether is also a combat skill?

only the most skilled people with sneak will be able to avoid combat. Most others will only use sneak to properly position their characters before combat. Sawyer said as much. So, yes: sneak is a combat skill.

 

[Rake]

Is it a "combat skill or not" has become worse than "what is an RPG".
Drop it already. It's just a label.

 

[Hormalakh]

It was pretty obvious that the traditional implementation of non-combat skills in RPGs was completely unacceptable to the PE team's design philosophy.

Fun is the most importand thing in Sawyer's design philosophy. And for most people item durabillity isn't fun.
Who cares. If it manages to be in the final game, it will be the very first thing to be modded out

And if it's modded out: Sawyer has failed as a designer. Games that are homebrewed are not good games. Sawyer above everyone else should care if his game gets mod to take out a not-insignificant mechanic.

And players should care because instead of playing around with badly designed item durability and crafting (that players end up modding out), they could be working on other things and designing better quests. Time and money are limited resources.

 

[Dreaad]

Sneak isn't a skill that you use outside of combat. It's a combat skill. It doesn't have many uses outside of combat.

Ah I see, so for you avoiding combat altogether is also a combat skill?

only the most skilled people with sneak will be able to avoid combat. Most others will only use sneak to properly position their characters before combat. Sawyer said as much. So, yes: sneak is a combat skill.

Man... by that logic you are essentially saying that ALL skills in all RPG's ever made are combat skills... Because all skills even dialog based ones do one of 3 things A.) Make combat easier B.) Let you start combat on your terms or C.) Let you avoid combat

But yes I suppose Rake is right, it is just a label.

 

[Infinitron]

Like I said, they're probably going to remove or heavily modify this for the same reason they'd have removed the Spirit Eater mechanic. I'm deeply disappointed that some people on the Codex think that's a good thing, but eh, life goes on.

 

[Hormalakh]

I'm p. sure he'll just copy the ones from D&D.

Nope.

"A little unconventional". The butthurt will be massive.

I don't mind new attributes. In fact I expect them. I think those were poorly designed. But if his new design also sucks I'll let him know about it.

Don't get me wrong. I think previous crafting systems sucked major ass. Arcanum was p. good but it was just the technologists spell book. This new design is not a better mousetrap. They've got it wrong and should fix it. That's my point.

 

[Excidium]

Is it a "combat skill or not" has become worse than "what is an RPG".
Drop it already. It's just a label.

It's not just a label, "non-combat" skills have a separated advancement system from other character traits.

 

[Hormalakh]

Not all skills are cOBMAT based. Many of them are game content based. Many of them open up different ways of solving problems. Not all problems in cRPGs are combat.... a hundred times over. NOT ALL SKILLS ARE COMBAT BASED BECAUSE NOT ALL PROBLEMS in CRPGS ARE COMBAT.

Content delivery is also motivating factor to pick a skill. Arcanum's crafting skill allowed you to see new items that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. Its dialogue skill allowed you to pick up NPCs that you otherwise couldn't (the Dwarf King). Its gambling skill allowed you to get a ship. But these are all scripted events. And most non-combat skill checks in games are scripted events.

 

[Roguey]

All noncombat skills indirectly influence your performance in combat.

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.

Potion recipe, gathering materials, possibly the name of a demon - helps you out in combat.

Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.

Combat stealth and outright avoidance of combat. Locked chests contain things that help you in combat. Traps reduce health, which make you worse at combat, and sometimes they're present in combat situations.

Getting new items. If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.

Items in RPGs are primarily used in combat.

Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Companion-related skills help their performance in combat.

 

[Hormalakh]

infinitron when you brofist roguey's posts, you gotta realize then that something you believe in is probably wrong...

 

[Infinitron]

infinitron when you brofist roguey's posts, you gotta realize then that somethign is wrong...

I take it you haven't been following the Codex's front page lately.

 

[Hormalakh]

i'm just trying to get us to 800 pages before the weekend.

 

[Infinitron]

I still support megathreads, but I now think we should have opened a separate Project Eternity discussion forum on the Codex. There's clearly a demand for it, to a much greater degree than for the other Kickstarter games.

 

[Excidium]

All noncombat skills indirectly influence your performance in combat.

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.

Potion recipe, gathering materials, possibly the name of a demon - helps you out in combat.

Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.

Combat stealth and outright avoidance of combat. Locked chests contain things that help you in combat. Traps reduce health, which make you worse at combat, and sometimes they're present in combat situations.

Getting new items. If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.

Items in RPGs are primarily used in combat.

Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Companion-related skills help their performance in combat.

Goddamn are you DUMB

Of course non-combat skills can have an (usually indirect) impact in combat much like combat skills can have an impact in non-combat interactions (AoD is full of examples), I don't think anyone is arguing that.

But the justification for the retarded skill advancement system they have on is that "non-combat" skills DONT HAVE A DIRECT COMBAT APPLICATION therefore it would be wrong to force people to spread their advancement between their combat and non-combat abilities to fully experience content in a combat-focused game. I don't know guise but your craft skill being used to affect the loss of durability that happens with every swing you do or blow you take seems like a p. direct application.

 

[Dreaad]

All noncombat skills indirectly influence your performance in combat.

Learning new things. This includes finding out previously unknown information, like the location of town or a hidden door, or uncovering secret knowledge, like a potion recipe or the true name of a demon. Or maybe you just want to know a good place to gather materials like ore or herbs. We will make abilities that let you find things out.

Potion recipe, gathering materials, possibly the name of a demon - helps you out in combat.

Traveling around the world. You will want to improve your movement capabilities (such as sneaking around some ruins), or traveling across the world map faster or more safely, or even teleporting directly to your destination. And sometimes movement requires removing barriers like locks or traps, so you will need some way to unlock and disarm. We'll add abilities for these actions.

Combat stealth and outright avoidance of combat. Locked chests contain things that help you in combat. Traps reduce health, which make you worse at combat, and sometimes they're present in combat situations.

Getting new items. If you are not going to kill a creature to take its things, then we will give you the means to make new items, buy them, or steal them. Or maybe you will choose to support NPC's by bringing them the materials or the recipes needed to make new items for you. We congratulate you on your non-violent and cooperative plans of wealth acquisition, and we'll give you the means to do it.

Items in RPGs are primarily used in combat.

Interacting with companions. Once we have added many interesting and useful NPC companions, we will have to give you ways to recruit them, improve their usefulness, and keep them from dying (or even worse, disliking you!). We will make non-combat abilities that interact with your companions, so you can keep them alive and filled with a grudging respect for you.

Companion-related skills help their performance in combat.

Hormalakh, by extension your arguments imply that everything is directly connected to combat. Picking up NPC's you can't normally pick up and getting ships with your gambling skill allows you to what? Increase/decrease effectiveness or avoid/start combat...

 

[Hormalakh]

picking up NPCs allow me to better understand the philosophy of stone and form.
picking up the ship allowed m easier movement between cities.

none of these had anythign to do with combat.

roguey sees everything in terms of combat because zhe only enjoys combat in games. i bet thats what sawyer also enjoys in games. he couldn't care less about locking game content and lore behind skill checks because a lot of the popamolers are usually single-run completionists. and we can't piss them off.

 

[Roguey]

But the justification for the retarded skill advancement system they have on is that non-combat skills DONT HAVE A DIRECT COMBAT APPLICATION. I don't know guise but your craft skill being used to affect the loss of durability that happens with every swing you do or blow you take seems like a p. direct application.

That isn't direct at all because it affects durability which affects damage/hit chance/etc. A effects B which effects C ergo, indirect.

 

[Roguey]

picking up NPCs allow me to better understand the philosophy of stone and form.
picking up the ship allowed m easier movement between cities.

none of these had anythign to do with combat.

roguey sees everything in terms of combat because zhe only enjoys combat in games. i bet thats what sawyer also enjoys in games. he couldn't care less about locking game content and lore behind skill checks because a lot of the popamolers are usually single-run completionists. and we can't piss them off.

There will very likely also be non-combat related things to use with your crafting skill.

Also your last sentence is odd considering Josh wants people to make a trade-off between crafting their items and upgrading their stronghold and was also the lead designer of New Vegas, a game that locked a bunch of stuff behind checks and would not allow you to do everything in a single playthrough (though you could do a lot with metagaming which he doesn't care about).

 

[Rake]

It was pretty obvious that the traditional implementation of non-combat skills in RPGs was completely unacceptable to the PE team's design philosophy.

Fun is the most importand thing in Sawyer's design philosophy. And for most people item durabillity isn't fun.
Who cares. If it manages to be in the final game, it will be the very first thing to be modded out

And if it's modded out: Sawyer has failed as a designer. Games that are homebrewed are not good games. Sawyer above everyone else should care if his game gets mod to take out a not-insignificant mechanic.

And players should care because instead of playing around with badly designed item durability and crafting (that players end up modding out), they could be working on other things and designing better quests. Time and money are limited resources.

I know. But i was against the crafting strech goal from the get go. Terrible feature, and item durability adds insult to injury. The comlains during the kickstarter were silenced with the promish to be able to ignore it if you don't like it. Now with the proposed mechanic you can't.

Like I said, they're probably going to remove or heavily modify this for the same reason they'd have removed the Spirit Eater mechanic. I'm deeply disappointed that some people on the Codex think that's a good thing, but eh, life goes on.

Why you insist to compair it to Spirit Eater mechanic? It's nothing similar. Makes more sense to compair it with item durability in Arcanum, and i would remove it from there as well if i could.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I just realized JE SAWYER is an anagram for JEW YEARS!

 

[Hormalakh]

i think my point has been muddled up in all of this argument about what's a combat skill and what isn't. roguey, it seems you agree with me that crafting is both a combat skill and a non-combat skill.