Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

I know. But i was against the crafting strech goal from the get go. Terrible feature, and item durability adds insult to injury. The comlains during the kickstarter were silenced with the promish to be able to ignore it if you don't like it. Now with the proposed mechanic you can't.

which is exactly why i think most people are upset. i agree with you, hence the argument about combat and non-combat skills. crafting has now become something that you cannot ignore (if you don't like it, just don't play with it!).

 

[Infinitron]

I know. But i was against the crafting strech goal from the get go. Terrible feature, and item durability adds insult to injury. The comlains during the kickstarter were silenced with the promish to be able to ignore it if you don't like it. Now with the proposed mechanic you can't.

which is exactly why i think most people are upset. i agree with you, hence the argument about combat and non-combat skills. crafting has now become something that you cannot ignore (if you don't like it, just don't play with it!).

But you can ignore it. You can choose to completely ignore the Crafting skill on every single character in your party, and rely on NPC blacksmiths to repair your stuff.

 

[Rake]

To be fair, i don't know if i should be angry with Sawyer or Cain. It stinks too much of Arcanum.
And not the great parts of the game,no, they had to copy the most retarded.

 

[Roguey]

i think my point has been muddled up in all of this argument about what's a combat skill and what isn't. roguey, it seems you agree with me that crafting is both a combat skill and a non-combat skill.

Yes, just like every other "non-combat" skill in Eternity. Just like many D&D skills as well. Bluff can be used to feint in combat, concentration keeps spells from fizzling out when damaged, really high diplomacy can make your followers into fanatics, intimidate can demoralize, spellcraft lets you identify spells as they're being cast, tumble gives you dodge bonuses to AC when fighting defensively at certain ranks, use magic device allows you to use scrolls and wands.

 

[Rake]

I know. But i was against the crafting strech goal from the get go. Terrible feature, and item durability adds insult to injury. The comlains during the kickstarter were silenced with the promish to be able to ignore it if you don't like it. Now with the proposed mechanic you can't.

which is exactly why i think most people are upset. i agree with you, hence the argument about combat and non-combat skills. crafting has now become something that you cannot ignore (if you don't like it, just don't play with it!).

But you can ignore it. You can choose to completely ignore the Crafting skill on every single character in your party, and rely on NPC blacksmiths to repair your stuff.

How is that interesting and not just busywork? I can also ignore it by play the game with damaged weapons and be done with it. And i'm prety sure i'll do it. If anything it will improve the difficulty.
But still the point stands that they spent time designing this crap instead of better content.


Also, to clarify things, i'm not opposed to crafting as much as item durability. I don't like crafting but i think it has the potential to may be good.
And the reasons he puts it in the game are beyond retarded. You have invented a bunch of imaginary motivations when in truth it's just a moneysink.
My post from the Obsidian forum was:

Spoiler

My thoughts in this:
First issue:
When unique items were in stores: * I don't want to buy unique items in stores
I think the main problem with this is how much unique the item is and what kind of store. People like to think that unique items are rare,special things that can't be recreated and most people in the world haven't seen. When you can buy it from a store, it looses something af its allure. Possible solutions: Make a reason for the store to have them. Maybe a realy special store that it's difficult to gain entrance and deals only with special items? Bonus points if the seller is unique himself. (I don't think I ever heard anyone complain about the "Adventurer's Mart" or the Collector's Edition shop but I may be wrong).

Second issue:
When unique items were in dungeons: * I have nothing to spend my money on
Good moneysinks: player house,player stronghold. That way you have something to spent your money on.If you don't want it's not the game's problem.
Crafting consumables. Again if you don't want them, not the game's problem.
Cromwell/Cespenar blacksmith. Have parts of special artifacts through the game and have a special blacksmith/mage to remake them. I think it's the only type of crafting everyone likes. Have more items than BG2 did and make the reforging more excpencive. I remember replaying the game solely to find parts that i didn't find in my first playthroughs.
Have options in quest solutions that bribery/spending money in some way is an option.

My thoughts on crafting in general:
I think crafting has a place in the game as long as:
It's for consumeables/minor trinkets,basic loot. Better yet if it's existing in it's own space like in the Witcher games.
Have it only for cosmetic/color changes in existing items.
What it should never do is devalue items found or bought. You shouldn't be able to modify legentary items or even worse making them yourself. IE games were the only games i have played that items felt special, had a history and were memorable. hand written histories were a part of the kickstarter pitch as well. The whole notion that you could make you own loot that is equal to these items devalues them way more than having to buy them from stores.


Part of the reason for having a crafting system was to make consumables less common in the world. Only people who want to make/use them would see a relatively large quantity of them. Since crafting ingredients are stored and sorted separately from other items, their presence subtracts nothing from the carrying capabilities of players who ignore the system entirely

Actually i love that.


Item durability:
That is the only thing in the update that i'm defenently against 100%. I have yet to see a game that item durability were anything else than mindless busywork. It's not strategic or anything. Unlike spirit eater mechanic in MotB or time limit in Fallout that were extra level of worry( and still people in general disliked them), item durability in Arcanum(the closer excample this update reminded me of) was an extra bother.
In formspring you said that a good question for game mechanics is how fun something is. Answer me that. Where is the fun in returning to town to push the repair all button in a blacksmith every couple of days. For me is more of an irritation.

 

[Infinitron]

But still the point stands that they spent time designing this crap instead of better content.

Yes well, the whole issue of "Why are you guys only talking about systems and not the awesome content and lore you're going to create?" is a whole other topic for discussion...

 

[Hormalakh]

sawyer says you can't ignore it. do i have to bring up all the quotes about degenerate gameplay from sawyer to explain this to you? if designers put it in the game or unthinkingly allow players to play in that way, players cannot ignore it.

 

[Infinitron]

sawyer says you can't ignore it. do i have to bring up all the quotes about degenerate gameplay from sawyer to explain this to you? if designers put it in the game or unthinkingly allow players to play in that way, players cannot ignore it.

Ignore what?

You can't ignore Durability, certainly, but you can ignore the Crafting skill, since there are other ways to repair a weapon.

I don't believe you can produce a quote where Sawyer says that any one skill is mandatory. That's completely against his design philosophy.

 

[Hormalakh]

i think my point has been muddled up in all of this argument about what's a combat skill and what isn't. roguey, it seems you agree with me that crafting is both a combat skill and a non-combat skill.

Yes, just like every other "non-combat" skill in Eternity. Just like many D&D skills as well. Bluff can be used to feint in combat, concentration keeps spells from fizzling out when damaged, really high diplomacy can make your followers into fanatics, intimidate can demoralize, spellcraft lets you identify spells as they're being cast, tumble gives you dodge bonuses to AC when fighting defensively at certain ranks, use magic device allows you to use scrolls and wands.

are u talking about PnP D&D or the IE implementation of it? I've already discussed how systemic benefits given in combat are different than scripted benefits given in combat. the examples you give aren't in IE games and the examples others have given aren't systemic.

at the end of the day, i don't have an issue with all skills having combat aspects. they should just make damn sure they do it right or should split out the combat aspects into COMBAT-SPECIFIC SKILLS.

 

[Rake]

But still the point stands that they spent time designing this crap instead of better content.

Yes well, the whole issue of "Why are you guys only talking about systems and not the awesome content and lore you're going to create?" is a whole other topic for discussion...

You misanderstood me. I don't want them to talk about the lore and i'm fine with Sawyer explaining his systems. What i meant was that he could be designing better systems instead of item durablility

 

[Hormalakh]

sawyer says you can't ignore it. do i have to bring up all the quotes about degenerate gameplay from sawyer to explain this to you? if designers put it in the game or unthinkingly allow players to play in that way, players cannot ignore it.

Ignore what?

You can't ignore Durability, certainly, but you can ignore the Crafting skill, since there are other ways to repair a weapon.

I don't believe you can produce a quote where Sawyer says that any one skill is mandatory. That's completely against his design philosophy.

durability is affected by crafting. it directly affects how many times i have to keep going back and forth to a forge instead of continuing along the dungeon.

 

[Infinitron]

durability is affected by crafting. it directly affects how many times i have to keep going back and forth to a forge instead of continuing along the dungeon.

The point is, it will be completely possible to finish the game with six characters with zero Crafting skill.

Find me a quote by Sawyer that says otherwise.

 

[Hormalakh]

durability is affected by crafting. it directly affects how many times i have to keep going back and forth to a forge instead of continuing along the dungeon.

The point is, it will be completely possible to finish the game with six characters with zero Crafting skill.

Find me a quote by Sawyer that says otherwise.

it was also completely possible to finish BG/BG2 without resting once. but most players didn't play that way. they rest-spammed.

or a more apt example: it was completely possible to finish BG/BG2 without massive buffs. But most players didn't play that way.

And as for Saawyer, he's stated several times that higher difficulties will have smaller margins of error and higher expectations of efficiency. Crafting as a combat skill plays into that efficiency.

 

[Infinitron]

durability is affected by crafting. it directly affects how many times i have to keep going back and forth to a forge instead of continuing along the dungeon.

The point is, it will be completely possible to finish the game with six characters with zero Crafting skill.

Find me a quote by Sawyer that says otherwise.

it was also completely possible to finish BG/BG2 without resting once. but most players didn't play that way. they rest-spammed.

or a more apt example: it was completely possible to finish BG/BG2 without massive buffs. But most players didn't play that way.

And as for Saawyer, he's stated several times that higher difficulties will have smaller margins of error and higher expectations of efficiency. Crafting as a combat skill plays into that efficiency.

Until next week when Tim Cain introduces the game's next "MUST HAVE" skill and then a bunch of people ITT will feel like idiots.

It's amazing how the thought of a counter ticking down ruins peoples' sense of proportionality.

 

[trais]

It was totally possible to avoid combat in Fallout 1, but most players didn't play that way.

 

[Hormalakh]

like i said, i don't have an issue with these concepts per se (regardless of what Infinitron thinks), i just don't think they're being true to their stated goals. OR they should be careful that future "non-combat skills" are as directly influential in combat as crafting is. they should also rework item durability to have mitigating factors outside of a single combat skill (crafting).

 

[Starym]

Would "There are no Combat and Non-combat skills, only Combat and Mostly Non-Combat skills" be a fair summary of the last few pages?

Also I really think everyone is over-thinking the durability thing, the most probable effect of having a the Craft skill is that you'll save some (perhaps a lot ) of gold unless you forget to repair several times or are REALLY good and can push through dungeons without resting a long time. I know Cain mentioned a Forge specifically when talking about repairing items with the Craft skill, but I get the feeling you'll be able to repair them in rest zones as well.

 

[Hormalakh]

Would "There are no Combat and Non-combat skills, only Combat and Mostly Non-Combat skills" be a fair summary of the last few pages?

yes.

J.E. Sawyer, on 03 Jul 2013 - 2:34 PM, said:

I'd like a sincere answer to this question, though I know not all of you are of the same mind: what do you want to spend (in-game) money on?​

I've already mentioned gold being a way to unlock quests/content (a la stronghold), but here are a few others:

• Gold as a character advancement mechanic a la Might and Magic's training costs. Each level costs more money to train.
• Gold as a party advancement mechanic. e.g. purchase bigger backpacks or mules to follow you so you have more of a "top of stash" or faster travel time.
• Gold for hiring adventurers
• Gold to sleep in inns and use forges, alchemy tables (perhaps certain "better" forges and labs give more per item, but cost money to "rent".)
• Gold for certain (not all, some can be found in dungeons) epic items.

And then finally this one which comes with a disclaimer. For all of the above-mentioned items, these are mostly one-time costs with permanence in what they offer. You rarely lose the value of the item purchased. However, ...

• Gold as consumables for potions, arrows, item repairs (yes even this)

... is different. These items are items that do not have permanence and thus are riskier investments. You purchase them because you believe that you might need them, but there are occasions where you can opt out by playing more tactically, etc. The main reason I think most people don't like the item durability as a consummable money sink is because there is no mitigation when it comes to it being a gold sink. You'll always lose the same amount of durability (outside of the craft skill) regardless of how you play your melee characters.

I believe that if item degradation was proposed to us as a combat mechanic with several inputs (certain spells, talents, and even skills - like crafting) that can mitigate the degradation, less people would be opposed to it. Many people see it more as a time/money sink than a tactical challenge. And as it is proposed now, this is exactly true. Why make a constant money sink, when you can just "turn down the faucet" as someone aptly put it?

 

[Carrion]

First, crafting should take time. If you need significant amount of time to repair weapon, shield and suit of armour, then if multiple party members often have them damaged you might need more than one person to keep up with the repairs when camping. There, solved without shitty meta elements.

Yes. JA2 did this and it was good. You'd need to add some upkeep costs and/or a time limit to make it work, though, because otherwise you could just spend a month in a dungeon fixing your gear. I wonder if adding a Fallout-style time limit would cause more outrage than some of the latest updates... Making time a limited resource would go a long way in fixing the problems that Sawyer is facing in his quest to eradicate degenerate gameplay. But no, you just have to make things the hard way and come up with one ridiculous system after another..

Agreed on the other point as well.

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder if adding a Fallout-style time limit would cause more outrage than some of the latest updates

YES.

 

[hiver]

What they should do is make it better.

First thing i would like to see is removing that "oh the item is always fine and just gives warnings waaaay before it finally reaches "damaged" status" - crap feature.

like this:
DURABILITY - a feature.

- First tier durability status effects -
you get that first, lasts the longest of the whole durability "time" an item has (whatever that is), -
Range: maybe first 40% of overall durability of a specific weapon.

These represent/simulate different notches and cuts a weapon may suffer in battle.

Notched blade.
2. Notched handle - for blunt weapons, slower attrition.
Blunt weapons also get "notches" or rather "chippings", only thats largely irrelevant for those types of weapons, (they can get notches over their shafts or other such grip extensions but, generally the attrition there should be slower ) - which would be first time ever that blunt weapons have some sort of advantage over swords of awesome - by the very nature instead of some arbitrary magic effect and/or shit.
3. - Something similar for ranged weapons - (google names of parts of bows and crossbows and others if you dont know already)


- Middle tier durability status effects -
These represent/simulate middle tier, more serious attrition effects like deeper cuts, slashes, gashes, splintered grips, loosening strings and fastenings and such.
Range: 40% to 70% of overall durability of a specific weapon.
Blunted blade, damaged grip, splintered... something, etc. *


- High tier status effects -
These represent/simulate greatest levels of durability damage attrition a weapon may have.
Range: 70% to 90% of overall durability of a specific weapon.
Broken grip, sheared off blade, cut strings, broken off head, - etc.*

*(any wandering weapon nut can feel free to fill the blanks and write all the proper terms for specific weapons he wants - knock yourself out)


- Completely damaged -



Additional measures:

- Critical hits or critical "misses" or defense critical failures should additionally create first tier durability status effects , or middle tier statuses, or high tier and completely damaged statuses.

- Durability loss of ordinary kind and critical hits durability status effects happen more regularly to noobs - players starting and low level players in general, regardless of any skill - which means payers at higher level will generally get less of it - which everyone would expect naturally of course - and which would enhance the gameplay itself since playing the game with different character builds on repeated playthroughs would always be indirectly more diverse in this sense - and players would get a natural reward for just going through the game - where the overall experience of their character would lessen the number of First tier durability status effects and critical failure effects. Even if that plays as an addition to other gameplay features or mechanics that deal with that.

- Then add fing CRAFTING into it in such a way that weapons that get damaged can be re-crafted and improved with different materials or alloys or skills of specific NPCs, or the skill of the player (should require relevant lore knowledge to work) - which ordinary pristine items cannot be used for. As in making that notched blade became a "saw sword" or improved Notched cutlass that gives better crits, or upgraded poisoned blade or a weapon that creates specific "wounds".
- depending on what for the player used it for, enemies it got completely damaged against, number of kills, most killed enemy by numbers - and such other player specific preferences metrics the game can easily follow internally.

So, these weapons become individualized, unique personal items reflecting gameplay specifics of that specific character and that player.



All this would actually improve and strengthen crafting itself as a desirable skills to have - in addition to everything else it should be used for.

 

[trais]

(...) they should also rework item durability to have mitigating factors outside of a single combat skill (crafting).

No. Fuck no. Item durability should not be tied to crafting skill at all. It makes no sense, it doesn't enhance gameplay and it only is, because Sawyer thinks that having 1-2 dedicated crafters to fulfill whole party needs is bad. And that all stems from his retarded axiom that all races, genders and classes have to be equal, no stat must be left behind and no build can be fucked up enough to be unviable. Which may arguably be good philosophy when designing competetive PvP or MMO games, but it sucks for singleplayer RPGs.

Looking at the bigger picture, I can see that Sawyer is trying to solve this dilema: "if you have a choice, where one answer is obviously good and other is obviously bad, then you don't really have a choice at all" - what you have is a problem with exactly one correct solution which you should pick every time. Instead, he's trying to present to players a set of choices in which every option is equally good. But what he misses in his reasoning is that when every option is equally valid, then you also don't have a meaningful choice - since everything leads to the same good outcome it doesn't matter what you pick. You're only picking a flavor of your success.
So, I can see why his designs might be cheered by idiots who only want to feel good about themselves and don't like to frustrated by any kind of failure, but for a person who likes challenge and overcoming obstacles it can only result boring and tedious gameplay.

 

[Infinitron]

And that all stems from his retarded axiom that all races, genders and classes have to be equal, no stat must be left behind and no build can be fucked up enough to be unviable.

False. It's about there being no dump stats or dump skills. It's about giving the player a reason to choose stuff. Equality has nothing to do with it.

You're only picking a flavor of your success.

What exactly is "flavor of success"? No matter what skill you pick, you still need to win at combat. Levelling up and choosing skills is not gameplay. It's not supposed to be a challenge. Combat is what's supposed to be a challenge.

 

[Infinitron]

You'll always lose the same amount of durability (outside of the craft skill) regardless of how you play your melee characters.

False.

Make fewer, more powerful strikes and your weapons will lose less durability.

Get hit less, and your armor will lose less durability.

There's your inputs.

 

[Hormalakh]

You'll always lose the same amount of durability (outside of the craft skill) regardless of how you play your melee characters.

False.

Make fewer, more powerful strikes and your weapons will lose less durability.

"Fast" weapons will have higher starting durability so they should wear at a similar rate of (real) time.