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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Zed

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Proof that Tim Cain forced this implementation of Crafting on poor Josh Sawyer. :whereisyourgodnow: :smug:
"Hey, Josh! We had this great system for Wildstar. I spent months on it! I think it would be perfect for Eternity. I have the documents right here."
 

Blaine

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  • Denial: "It doesn't mean anything that he's using Crafting with a capital C. Probably just a placeholder while they flesh the system out."
  • Anger: "That fucking skill better not be called 'Crafting'! I paid $250 for this!"
  • Bargaining: "Josh, please. Please, Tim. I'm sorry I called Josh a femanist. I take it back, just please don't call it Crafting."
  • Depression: "Over a decade of decline... what did I expect? You can't catch lighting in a bottle on demand. The Golden Age is over."
  • Acceptance: "I don't mind that it's called Crafting, haha! Such a small detail, and I'm sure he knows better than I do. We're fine, everything is fine."
 

Infinitron

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It seems that Josh Sawyer, Infinitron and Roguey are of one mind.

Maybe I'm Josh Sawyer too!

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506352&pagenumber=444#post417169453

rD3QKx3.png
 

Infinitron

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http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/page-18#entry1348405


Josh Sawyer said:
A few points of clarification:

* "Crafting" is one skill, but the crafting system uses multiple skills. I.e., the crafting system does not rely on the existence of the Crafting skill.
* Other than reaching the edge of a map to access the world map, there is no fast-travel in PE. That said, we will likely avoid the IWD-style 5-level dungeons without semi-regular shortcuts back to the surface (N.B.: this does not mean Skyrim-style loops).
* Most items do take up space in personal inventories! The party Stash is unlimited, but the Pack (made of personal inventories) is not. Crafting items (and quest items) always go into (and come out of) the Stash. We are doing this specifically to address common complaints about crafting items cluttering the inventory. Since crafting is typically done at camps or other non-combat locations, allowing the items to come out of the Stash doesn't seem to create any problems.

As I posted on SA, Crafting (the skill) and its associated subsystems (like durability) were the elements I felt least confident about in our skill system. I strongly believe that choices within an array should give the player reasonably balanced benefits. Because certain fundamental skills (like Stealth) can clearly benefit from multiple party members taking them and can contribute to party effectiveness in combat, I believe that other skills should do the same in their own way -- enough to make all of them appealing choices on multiple party members. This also has the benefit of making the uses of skills much higher-frequency than the individual uses that depend on designer content (e.g. unlocking doors or gaining a dialogue/quest option).

As an example, Medicine in its various Fallout forms contributes to the efficacy of stimpaks. There are many other places were Medicine can be used in quests and dialogue, but it has high-frequency use with stimpaks (in or between combats). It's a benefit that can apply to any character who has the skill, even if a character with a higher rating in a party may be "the guy" to perform the high-difficulty actions.

With all of the skills other than Crafting (specifically), those high-frequency benefits/uses were easy to come by. Crafting presented some difficulties and, as I wrote previously, I was concerned about the lack of systemic drains in the economy. Many people have mentioned a lot of potential uses for wealth. Most of them are great ideas and ones that we plan to use, but the vast majority of them are not systemic, rather content-dependent or scripted instances (e.g. bribes). However, it is clear from discussions here and elsewhere that the long-term balance of the economy is not a concern for most players who voiced their opinions -- and almost certainly not in the endgame.

Based on discussions on the forums and conversations I had with people on the team, we will be doing the following:

* Removing durability as a mechanic on items.
* Removing the Crafting skill (specifically). The crafting system and its associated mechanics will remain, as-is.

Ultimately, solving skill imbalance and endgame wealth abundance problems is not worth what players perceive as uninteresting and unenjoyable gameplay. I can still solve the skill imbalance problems by removing the problem skill. As for endgame wealth abundance, we will continue to create places for you to use wealth in the economy: unique items, the stronghold, optional quest/dialogue gates, etc. Ultimately, if those options go unused, I'll have to trust that the majority of players won't be significantly troubled by an excess of wealth in the late game.

Thanks for all of your feedback.

Happy now?
 

Hormalakh

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^^ We need that as an icon. And I agree with AstroZombie. It could have been awesome, but at least they aren't wasting time with tacked-on mechanics. Limited money and time people, limited money and time.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
^^ We need that as an icon. And I agree with AstroZombie. It could have been awesome, but at least they aren't wasting time with tacked-on mechanics. Limited money and time people, limited money and time.


You know of course that designing and programming systemized mechanics like these aren't the bottleneck on Obsidian's money and time.
 

Hormalakh

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I thought you liked tacked on bonuses Hormalakh ?

Tacked on is not the same thing as scripted events. A tacked-on mechanic is a mechanic without much thought and support in-game (a mechanic that stands on its own). A scripted event would be certain bosses destroying your items (a la Might and Magic III). Although I guess it could be considered a systemic event... I guess I should have been more clear.

Edit: Oh I see what you're talking about now. I never had an issue with skills having systemic bonuses. My issue was with the way they had described non-combat and combat skills and specifically with crafting having a mechanic "tacked-on" just to support a systemic bonus.
 

Duraframe300

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^^ We need that as an icon. And I agree with AstroZombie. It could have been awesome, but at least they aren't wasting time with tacked-on mechanics. Limited money and time people, limited money and time.


You know of course that designing and programming systemized mechanics like these aren't the bottleneck on Obsidian's money and time.

Yeah, not to mention you can adjust them even after release. Art and Content are the bigger issues. On the other hand, Obsidian should be pretty good on both of these.
 

Hormalakh

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^^ We need that as an icon. And I agree with AstroZombie. It could have been awesome, but at least they aren't wasting time with tacked-on mechanics. Limited money and time people, limited money and time.


You know of course that designing and programming systemized mechanics like these aren't the bottleneck on Obsidian's money and time.

Building a complete supporting infrastructure and restructuring their mechanics to better implement item durability is a huge commitment. They're adding a whole other layer to the complexity. This is of course, if they were to do it right. The fact that item durability was so easily removed from the mechanics within 2 days of its disclosure is evidence to the fact that this mechanic was "tacked-on" only to give crafting a systemic bonus. If they were to do item durability right, they'd need to rework everything.
 

Infinitron

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Building a complete supporting infrastructure and restructuring their mechanics to better implement item durability is a huge commitment.

Not really, no. There's no finished content yet, Hormalakh. They've got nothing to rebalance, nothing to restructure. It's just code.
 

Blaine

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Infinitron, I now see the ramifications of what you were driving at the other day. While my reasons for disliking the durability mechanics are arguably legitimate, the fact that lots of Biodrones/Obsidrones also dislike them for unequivocally idiotic reasons has swayed the developers into doing what I wanted them to do.

This is a hollow victory, really. For one thing, Obsidian are paying heed to the drones; for another, next time around the drones might conceivably sway the developers in a direction no one will like.
 

Hormalakh

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Building a complete supporting infrastructure and restructuring their mechanics to better implement item durability is a huge commitment.

Not really, no. There's no finished content yet, Hormalakh. They've got nothing to rebalance, nothing to restructure. It's just code.
It's not "just code": a good robust mechanic has a bunch of questions that need to be answered before being implemented. Questions such as:

1- How is item durability mitigated?
2- What skills affect item durability?
3- Are all metal types affected by ID similarly?
4- Do classes have certain bonuses/maluses to ID?
5- Do certain monsters/weapons affect ID differently?
etc etc.
 

tuluse

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I think Sawyer is good at separating the chaff from the wheat and understanding when someone posts a reasoned argument vs "I don't like x, remove it".
 
Self-Ejected

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I think he just wasn't liking the implementation he had anyway, the general feedback just pushed him to purge it for good.
 

Infinitron

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Infinitron, I now see the ramifications of what you were driving at the other day. While my reasons for disliking the durability mechanics are arguably legitimate, the fact that lots of Biodrones/Obsidrones also dislike them for unequivocally idiotic reasons has swayed the developers into doing what I wanted them to do.

This is a hollow victory, really. For one thing, Obsidian are paying heed to the drones; for another, next time around the drones might conceivably sway the developers in a direction no one will like.


Well, it's now clear that Sawyer never really wanted to implement Crafting this way in the first place, so that's why he folded so quickly.

It's not "just code": a good robust mechanic has a bunch of questions that need to be answered before being implemented. Questions such as:

1- How is item durability mitigated?
2- What skills affect item durability?
3- Are all metal types affected by ID similarly?
4- Do classes have certain bonuses/maluses to ID?
5- Do certain monsters/weapons affect ID differently?
etc etc.


This is design work. It's a few guys sitting around a table for a few days hashing things out. It might be mathemetically complex, but it doesn't take a lot of time and money to do.
 

Hormalakh

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Infinitron, I now see the ramifications of what you were driving at the other day. While my reasons for disliking the durability mechanics are arguably legitimate, the fact that lots of Biodrones/Obsidrones also dislike them for unequivocally idiotic reasons has swayed the developers into doing what I wanted them to do.

This is a hollow victory, really. For one thing, Obsidian are paying heed to the drones; for another, next time around the drones might conceivably sway the developers in a direction no one will like.


Well, it's now clear that Sawyer never really wanted to implement Crafting this way in the first place, so that's why he folded so quickly.

It's not "just code": a good robust mechanic has a bunch of questions that need to be answered before being implemented. Questions such as:

1- How is item durability mitigated?
2- What skills affect item durability?
3- Are all metal types affected by ID similarly?
4- Do classes have certain bonuses/maluses to ID?
5- Do certain monsters/weapons affect ID differently?
etc etc.


This is design work. It's a few guys sitting around a table for a few days hashing things out. It might be mathemetically complex, but it doesn't take a lot of time and money to do.

Those are days for which they fall behind on the pipeline and salaries that they have to pay. These are production managers worst-nightmares.
 

Infinitron

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Those are days for which they fall behind on the pipeline and salaries that they have to pay. These are production managers worst-nightmares.

Not really, because that stuff doesn't prevent the artists and writers from doing their thing. (the former are PE's real bottleneck)

If they were making these changes a month before release, that would be a different story.
 

Duraframe300

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Infinitron, I now see the ramifications of what you were driving at the other day. While my reasons for disliking the durability mechanics are arguably legitimate, the fact that lots of Biodrones/Obsidrones also dislike them for unequivocally idiotic reasons has swayed the developers into doing what I wanted them to do.

This is a hollow victory, really. For one thing, Obsidian are paying heed to the drones; for another, next time around the drones might conceivably sway the developers in a direction no one will like.

Not gonna happen. We're already over half a year in the development process and we had lots of contreversities (as this thread proves) and Sawyer only changed something when he wasn't 100% sure of it himself or really the vast majority of the fanbase was against it. Also there needed to be a solid reason to do so as well.

And even then, he never just adjusted it exactly to how some fans wanted it, but still kept their own spin on it.

Or as Sawyer puts it

There are an enormous number of features/systems that people have complained about that I have not changed because I believed (and still believe) the game would ultimately be more enjoyable as-designed. I always listen to/read what people have to say, but I only rarely make changes based on what they say. I don't think anyone would benefit from me ignoring all of the points that people put forward.
 

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