Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Sensuki]

It's not necessarily a bad thing. The IE games limited the creation of artifacts through their placement in the game world. You couldn't create The Equalizer until you came out of the Underdark for Chapter 6.

Project Eternity will probably be a bit more like BG1 (or dare I say, Dragon Age) where you can go pretty much anywhere in the world and find the ingredients for powerful items relatively quickly if you knew where to look (subject to difficult of areas). The restrictions based on char builds etc is just an easier way to monitor the progression and amount of items that can be made on one playthrough.

(or perhaps force you to pay for a vendor to create the items that you can't make yourself)

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

dumpstat

I think the point isn't making all stats equally important for all characters, but ensuring that after your build's primary needs are satisfied you still have some points to spread around, and no particular stat will be a safe choice for not putting any points there. If a game can make you really regret you don't have an intelligent or charismatic fighter, then mission accomplished. Even better if you may well prefer to have merely strong rather than inhumanly strong fighter, but also have him intelligent or strong-willed.

I know, and I agree, but it's a question of how much you want someone to "regret" not having picked a different build. That was the point I was making with the FO example: the devs did everything they could to make you regret not using intelligence, but the result is still that it ends up being a dumpstat in some scenarios, and overpowered in most. Perfect balance is a pipedream, and while you might say that doesn't matter and you might as try at it as hard as you can, this mindset inevitably leads you to reducing player choice, which Sawyer himself admitted just now:

I can still solve the skill imbalance problems by removing the problem skill.

He had a modestly interesting skill in place, crafting, figured he couldn't balance it without tacking on a feature that enraged the masses, so he scrapped it. So now you end up with a crafting mechanic governed by other skills; i.e. crafting is used to to beef up other skills so they balance properly. It's a vicious player choice undermining spiral I dare say.

 

[Infinitron]

a dumpstat in some scenarios, and overpowered in most

If it's useful in some scenarios, then it's not a dumpstat.

Sawyer has never talked about everything being "equally useful always". He wants things to be useful enough.

How much is "enough", you say? It's like the US Supreme Court's definition of hardcore pornography - you know it when you see it.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah just different design principles I guess. InXile are keeping Toaster Repair for Wasteland 2 whereas Josh Sawyer probably would have removed it or combined it into a different skill.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

a dumpstat in some scenarios, and overpowered in most

If it's useful in some scenarios, then it's not a dumpstat.

Sawyer has never talked about everything being "equally useful always". He wants things to be useful enough.

How much is "enough", you say? It's like the US Supreme Court's definition of hardcore pornography - you know it when you see it.

Oh, for god's sakes, you know that Sawyer's theory on dumpstats goes beyond "Fighters should have some use for wisdom". Also, I didn't mean scenarios as in gameplay situations, but builds.

Edit: Also, again, of course I know that he doesn't want to make every stat equally useful, that'd be one weird ass game.

Edit2: Though one single universal stat would of course be perfectly balanced

 

[Blaine]

Infinitron is the new Roguey, discuss.

 

[Cosmo]

He wants things to be useful enough.

How much is "enough", you say? It's like the US Supreme Court's definition of hardcore pornography - you know it when you see it.

For one thing having more than possible coherent build per class kinda qualifies...
Which is impossible without several meaningful stats.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh, for god's sakes, you know that Sawyer's theory on dumpstats goes beyond "Fighters should have some use for wisdom".

I didn't say "some use". I said "useful enough".

Of course, Sawyer would want a systemic use for Wisdom, not a scripted one. So a Wisdom check in a dialogue tree somewhere wouldn't be good enough.

But if there's some systemic benefit to Wisdom that is significantly useful to a fighter, then that would be enough.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Oh, for god's sakes, you know that Sawyer's theory on dumpstats goes beyond "Fighters should have some use for wisdom".

I didn't say "some use". I said "useful enough".

Of course, Sawyer would want a systemic use for Wisdom, not a scripted one. So a Wisdom check in a dialogue tree somewhere wouldn't be good enough.

But if there's some systemic benefit to Wisdom that is significantly useful to a fighter, then that would be enough.

Sure, and it's in this systemic requirement that you start getting into trouble. Wisdom can determine saves, intelligence skill points or whatever, but Charisma? The systemic benefits are always going to be marginal, and that must be part of the reason why it won't (he said something like this right?) be included.

Of course, we don't know for sure yet (at least I think we still don't) what his revolutionary attribute system is going to end up looking like, but I'm just saying that this type of mindset inevitably leads to the need to merge/eliminate skills and attributes and thus eliminate choice (shown by crafting, which was already a merging of several common crpg skills, and, presumably, charisma).

 

[Infinitron]

Of course, we don't know for sure yet (at least I think we still don't) what his revolutionary attribute system is going to end up looking like, but I'm just saying that this type of mindset inevitably leads to the need to merge/eliminate skills and attributes and thus eliminate choice (shown by crafting, which was already a merging of several common crpg skills, and, presumably, charisma).

What does "choice" mean here, though? I think people assume there's some platonic ideal of an RPG system. It must have something like Strength, it must have something like Dexterity, it must have something like Charisma, etc. And if somebody takes one of those away, they're "MEANIES that are taking away our choices ".

But nobody ever said an RPG system had to contain stats like those. I hate resorting to these chess metaphors all the time, but you don't complain that your bishop can only walk diagonally. Those are the rules of the game.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Of course, we don't know for sure yet (at least I think we still don't) what his revolutionary attribute system is going to end up looking like, but I'm just saying that this type of mindset inevitably leads to the need to merge/eliminate skills and attributes and thus eliminate choice (shown by crafting, which was already a merging of several common crpg skills, and, presumably, charisma).

What does "choice" mean here, though? I think people assume there's some platonic ideal of an RPG system. It must have something like Strength, it must have something like Dexterity, it must have something like Charisma, etc. And if somebody takes one of those away, they're "MEANIES that are taking away our choices ".

But nobody ever said an RPG system had to contain stats like those. I hate resorting to these chess metaphors all the time, but you don't complain that your bishop can only walk diagonally. Those are the rules of the game.

Because the platonic ideal itself is already limited enough without chipping away at it. But sure, you can make the point as per your chess metaphor that less choice in terms for character creation makes for better gameplay. That's fine, you can lean as much towards the player skill side of things as you like. But at least you're finally starting to admit that it does indeed lead to fewer choices, and not just fewer irrelevant ones.

 

[Arkeus]

What does "choice" mean here, though? I think people assume there's some platonic ideal of an RPG system. It must have something like Strength, it must have something like Dexterity, it must have something like Charisma, etc. And if somebody takes one of those away, they're "MEANIES that are taking away our choices ".

But nobody ever said an RPG system had to contain stats like those. I hate resorting to these chess metaphors all the time, but you don't complain that your bishop can only walk diagonally. Those are the rules of the game.

I was actually quite disturbed at how some people complained about how Wizards, the 'traditional' crafting class, would have less use of the crafting skill. It was supposedly immersion-breaking.

I mean, they were talking about the BLACKSMITHING skill. Seriously. The wizards being 'traditional' Blacksmith is all kind of wrong and bulshit about DnD meta-game.... It's EXTREMELY immersion breaking to have it.

 

[Infinitron]

Because the platonic ideal itself is already limited enough without chipping away at it. But sure, you can make the point as per your chess metaphor that less choice in terms for character creation makes for better gameplay. That's fine, you can lean as much towards the player skill side of things as you like. But at least you're finally starting to admit that it does indeed lead to fewer choices, and not just fewer irrelevant ones.

I admit no such thing.

To be honest, I don't think "choice" is relevant here at all. A player's sense of "choice" has a lot to do with scripted content - dialog choices, exploration, etc.

The only question is to what degree those things are systems-bound. Even an adventure game with no stats at all can provide you with a sense of choice.

In this case, PE still has crafting. You can still choose to craft. You just can't create a character with a "Crafting" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

 

[Sensuki]

After seeing Josh's skill design principles I believe that character attributes will be designed in the same way. Each attribute will give specific systemic bonuses to all classes, some more than others.

e.g. Charisma

It'll probably be very important for the Cipher class, I can see that from milezaway.

It could also possibly effect the strength of Chanter's chants, the range or strength of Paladin's and Priest's auras.

Wizards ... Charm-like spells and stuff ?

Rogues ... umm maybe their feint-style class abilities

Fighters ... umm, intimidation style class abilities if there are any

Barbarian - roars (well Chanters have roars, but Barbarians might as well)?

Rangers - augment the connection with the Animal Companion?

Druid ... dunno, strength of animal summons or something ?

Monk - can't think of something specific off the top of my head but something to do with 'presence'

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

In this case, PE still has crafting. You can still choose to craft. You just can't create a character with a "Crafting" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Halo has shooting stuff. You can still choose to shoot stuff. You just can't create a character with a "Shooting stuff" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

 

[Infinitron]

In this case, PE still has crafting. You can still choose to craft. You just can't create a character with a "Crafting" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Halo has shooting stuff. You can still choose to shoot stuff. You just can't create a character with a "Shooting stuff" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Yeah, I figured you would respond with something like that.

Let me clarify that I don't think "de-systemizing" things like that is a good thing in an RPG. It makes the game less of an RPG.

I just don't think it has much to do with "choice".

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

In this case, PE still has crafting. You can still choose to craft. You just can't create a character with a "Crafting" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Halo has shooting stuff. You can still choose to shoot stuff. You just can't create a character with a "Shooting stuff" skill. Well, boo-fucking-hoo.

Yeah, I figured you would respond with something like that.

Let me clarify that I don't think "de-systemizing" things like that is a good thing in an RPG. It makes the game less of an RPG.

I just don't think it has much to do with "choice".

I specified it as choice in terms of player customization. If you can choose between being good at relevant skill A and relevant skill B then you have more choice than if these are merged in one single skill C.

 

[Infinitron]

I specified it as choice in terms of player customization. I you can choose between being good at relevant skill A and relevant skill B then you have more choice than if these are merged in one single skill C.

I do not view "choice in terms of player customization" as an important measure in an RPG in and of itself. It only means something in the context of ingame content that takes advantage of that customization. Otherwise, it's just LARPing.

"Look at me, my character has high Flower Embroidery skill! SELF-EXPRESSION!!" Nevermind that you can't do anything interesting with it.

But now we're entering Definition Of An RPG territory.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I specified it as choice in terms of player customization. I you can choose between being good at relevant skill A and relevant skill B then you have more choice than if these are merged in one single skill C.

I do not view "choice in terms of player customization" as an important measure in an RPG in and of itself. It only means something in the context of ingame content that takes advantage of that customization. Otherwise, it's just LARPing.

"Look at me, my character has high Flower Embroidery skill! SELF-EXPRESSION!!" Nevermind that you can't do anything interesting with it.

But now we're entering Definition Of An RPG territory.

That's why I clarified it as a choice between relevant skills. In that insane Fallout thread I remember you complaining about the lack of a systemic use for the repair skill; I maintain that even without a systemic advantage it's still a relevant skill, and most would agree. That has nothing to do with LARPing, just with the arbitrary systemic/situational requirement that you and Sawyer have before a skill can be considered relevant.

I was actually quite disturbed at how some people complained about how Wizards, the 'traditional' crafting class, would have less use of the crafting skill. It was supposedly immersion-breaking.

I mean, they were talking about the BLACKSMITHING skill. Seriously. The wizards being 'traditional' Blacksmith is all kind of wrong and bulshit about DnD meta-game.... It's EXTREMELY immersion breaking to have it.

It also included Alchemy and Enchanting.

 

[Infinitron]

That's why I clarified it as a choice between relevant skills. In that insane Fallout thread I remember you complaining about the lack of a systemic use for the repair skill;

Hmm, I don't remember talking about Fallout 1's repair skill. I'm not the hugest fan of Fallout-style systems, but I believe they have a right to exist.

I maintain that even without a systemic advantage it's still a relevant skill, and most would agree. That has nothing to do with LARPing, just with the arbitrary systemic/situational requirement that you and Sawyer have before a skill can be considered relevant.

One's definition of "relevant" depends on design philosophy. Sawyer doesn't feel like he's depriving you of relevant choices because to him those choices aren't relevant.

So, I think we'll just have to live and let live as far as this goes.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

So, I think we'll just have to live and let live as far as this goes.

Sure thing.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

Crafting skills are homo anyway.

 

[Volrath]

I just want to play this fucking game.

 

[coffeetable]

After seeing Josh's skill design principles I believe that character attributes will be designed in the same way. Each attribute will give specific systemic bonuses to all classes, some more than others.

e.g. Charisma

It'll probably be very important for the Cipher class, I can see that from milezaway.

It could also possibly effect the strength of Chanter's chants, the range or strength of Paladin's and Priest's auras.

Wizards ... Charm-like spells and stuff ?

Rogues ... umm maybe their feint-style class abilities

Fighters ... umm, intimidation style class abilities if there are any

Barbarian - roars (well Chanters have roars, but Barbarians might as well)?

Rangers - augment the connection with the Animal Companion?

Druid ... dunno, strength of animal summons or something ?

Monk - can't think of something specific off the top of my head but something to do with 'presence'

I can't come up with a source for it, but I think I remember one of the devs complaining about how since social interaction is so important in RPGs, social skills and attributes were A Bit Shit. The alternative they proposed was to make conversation conditionals dependent on other stats and skills, on reputation with various factions, and on previous actions.

So yeah that tied with Sawyer's preference for every attribute being useful to every class, I'm not sure there will be a Charisma attribute. Heresy I know.

(Actually considering how they've talked about pretty much every mechanic but attributes, I'm beginning to think a lot of sacred cows might have been slaughtered there)

 

[Sensuki]

That was just an example.

I am fully expecting something bizarre for attributes, but that is how I believe they will all work.