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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Sure, and it's in this systemic requirement that you start getting into trouble. Wisdom can determine saves, intelligence skill points or whatever, but Charisma? The systemic benefits are always going to be marginal, and that must be part of the reason why it won't (he said something like this right?) be included.

Of course, we don't know for sure yet (at least I think we still don't) what his revolutionary attribute system is going to end up looking like, but I'm just saying that this type of mindset inevitably leads to the need to merge/eliminate skills and attributes and thus eliminate choice (shown by crafting, which was already a merging of several common crpg skills, and, presumably, charisma).
Sawyer is against "social" skills or attributes entirely. He thinks dialog options and successes should be based upon early player choices, not skills.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sawyer is against "social" skills or attributes entirely. He thinks dialog options and successes should be based upon early player choices, not skills.

He's also okay with stat or skill checks on stats or skills which aren't purely social.
 

DraQ

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A good way to implement systemic crafting without having dedicated crafting skill(s) would be basing it on skill governing the use of that type of item plus extra stat requirement - usually int.
Hell, it could even be used with dedicated crafting skill(s), with another skill deciding what types of items you can craft and how good they are.
Would introduce the reason to have multiple crafters too.

I really think multi-stat checks are underused.

Sure, and it's in this systemic requirement that you start getting into trouble. Wisdom can determine saves, intelligence skill points or whatever, but Charisma?
Followers, increased effectiveness of party members, increased morale of party.
 
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A good way to implement systemic crafting without having dedicated crafting skill(s) would be basing it on skill governing the use of that type of item plus extra stat requirement - usually int.
Hell, it could even be used with dedicated crafting skill(s), with another skill deciding what types of items you can craft and how good they are.
Would introduce the reason to have multiple crafters too.

I really think multi-stat checks are underused.

I always felt the usage/technical knowledge divide in most rpg's made sense. Does being exquisitely good at firing a pistol really give you that much of an edge at building one yourself?* I also think an int check would be superfluous in the case of dedicated crafting skill(s) (presumably int would govern how many skill points you had to spend on the skill anyway). Wouldn't the Arcanum way of simply multi-stat checking different crafting disciplines still be the best way?

*Reminds me of a Yugoslav joke. Mujo's wife Fata goes to work in Germany for a while. On the first night when she comes back, she suddenly starts giving Mujo head for the first time they've been together. Mujo pulls her off him and asks her sternly "where did you learn to do this shit?". Fata says, "I saw it in a pornographic movie while I was in Germany." Mujo seems content and lets her continue, before abruptly pulling her off him again and slapping her across the face. "Woman, I've spent all my life watching football, and I still can't play for worth shit".

Edit: okay, watching, doing and making are three different things, but I like the joke.

Sure, and it's in this systemic requirement that you start getting into trouble. Wisdom can determine saves, intelligence skill points or whatever, but Charisma?
Followers, increased effectiveness of party members, increased morale of party.

"Increased effectiveness" is already kind of straying into arbitrary bonus territory, don't you think? Morale I'd be in favor of, but even there I'd make it one of a number of factors. You'd think that the grunts stick by their lieutenant in extreme circumstances not just because he has a domineering presence, but also because of his actions and commands in past engagements. In the same way I always felt that "number of followers" was always a bit of cheap way of making something that should depend on a number of factors into a systemic benefit for Charisma, simply because it's supposed to have one.

Edit: of course, all of your points are moot anyway in the context of PE because they'd only apply to one single character (the "leader"). Edit 2: Incidentally that was also my point to begin with: risklessly balancing an attribute like charisma or a skill like FO's repair in a single character game is far more easy than in a party-based game because you can rely far more on situational or exclusive systemic benefits.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/478011301356920631

S9n9fyf.png
 

uaciaut

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Skimming through the last couple of pages i realize how bad the idea of presenting certain concepts of the game as it's being developed to the backers/fans without much context is. Particularly fans that seems to obsess over the idea that the old gen RPG's were near perfect to begin with and that new RPG's, as shitty as they are in the most important areas, can bring nothing of value whatsoever to the genre. It's much easier to associate crafting with diablo2 or whatever other game you want to associate it with where it actually had no real value whatsoever, but without the context of how P:E's economy will be like, how crafted items compare to found items or in what way item decay limits players, i really can't say whether it will be bad or good.
 

DraQ

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I always felt the usage/technical knowledge divide in most rpg's made sense. Does being exquisitely good at firing a pistol really give you that much of an edge at building one yourself?*
Well, that depends.

I'd guess that for example in a fantasy or other low-tech setting where crafting is not really an exact science swinging a sword in actual combat would prove invaluable to understanding what makes a good and well balanced weapon. Especially to a character who is an adventurer rather than full blown artisan. Same with other weapons - innovations and improvements would rather be made by a person who has firsthand experience with problems they are supposed to tackle.

In such case we would have weapon or other equipment type related skill governing making a good weapon and either a separate crafting skill governing material use and smithing techniques, or int check governing how well a character can translate his experience at chopping people in the face into weapon design, with material and techniques being implicitly handled by int, explicit knowledge monitoring (having read, heard or otherwise learned the relevant information during gameplay - may be guarded by int check as well) or wholly abstracted away.

In a high tech setting separation would make sense because more weapon workings would be blackboxed inside and require extensive machine shop, blueprints, and technical knowledge, with stuff like ergonomics and good handling being pretty much codified over centuries.


I also think an int check would be superfluous in the case of dedicated crafting skill(s)
That's why it would be used in lieu of crafting skill if it was absent from the system altogether.

"Increased effectiveness" is already kind of straying into arbitrary bonus territory, don't you think?
Well, no. Charismatic leaders tend to motivate their followers. Sure, morale is the proper way of doing that, but high morale should confer effectiveness bonuses as well.

You'd think that the grunts stick by their lieutenant in extreme circumstances not just because he has a domineering presence, but also because of his actions and commands in past engagements.
True, but that's harder to monitor and may also rely on charisma to a certain degree.

Particularly fans that seems to obsess over the idea that the old gen RPG's were near perfect to begin with and that new RPG's, as shitty as they are in the most important areas, can bring nothing of value whatsoever to the genre.
You have no idea.

On the codex alone we frequently have "2D is perfect 3D is shit!!!1", "omg RT blobber with combat dance fapfapfap", "RT is shiiit even for a single character!!1" and "movement grids huehuehuehua", not to mention some completely inane comparisons of particular new and old games relying entirely on rose-coloured perception of the past.
 

Logic_error

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Well in that case what would make crafting fun?

EDIT: Also a lot of you seem to be masochistic about games. There is this one guy who said that weapon degradation is good because it is challenging (!).
 
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Well, that depends...

I still find it unlikely that you could mimic proficiency in smithing through "having read, heard or otherwise learned the relevant information during gameplay", no matter the int checks you set up. Can't say I know much about smithing, but it would seem that experience in practice plays a very large role in the quality of the outcome, and that's something you can only represent through skills.


"Increased effectiveness" is already kind of straying into arbitrary bonus territory, don't you think?
Well, no. Charismatic leaders tend to motivate their followers. Sure, morale is the proper way of doing that, but high morale should confer effectiveness bonuses as well.

I know, but I think the problem is how you'd incorporate it into the game mechanically without it becoming cheesy. Morale makes sense: less frequent/long morale failures or whatever's the equivalent. But "efficiency"? Do you do that by giving them damage bonuses? Does it really make sense that you'd kill someone with one less blow just because your lieutenant is more charismatic? The only thing that might make some sense would be stamina, but even that'd be pushing it I think.

You'd think that the grunts stick by their lieutenant in extreme circumstances not just because he has a domineering presence, but also because of his actions and commands in past engagements.
True, but that's harder to monitor

But that'd be a worthwhile direction to take things all the same. Consistently sending your meatpuppet npc's into the grinder and holding back yourself simply because it isn't game over when they die should rightly piss them off regardless of charisma (or, rather, charisma might hold this off for a while, especially if the party member has low int, but it should at least not be the end all of party morale).
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
When implemented properly. Not tacked on just to make the Crafting skill match their design principles. The decision to remove it is the superior one.
 

Roguey

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We can still hope for walls of text. No PS:T level but still...

Ask Sawyer about that Infinitron to see what he will answer. Or maybe in the Codex interview.
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832
How PST handled dialogue from the perspective of making it more than literally just saying words to another character. PST's dialogue allowed you to do much more in conversations and helped the player feel like they were *doing* things.
 

DraQ

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Well in that case what would make crafting fun?

EDIT: Also a lot of you seem to be masochistic about games. There is this one guy who said that weapon degradation is good because it is challenging (!).
There is a reason they are called games rather than masturbatory power fantasy stories, you know.

Overcoming challenge is far more fun than being conspicuously fellated by the designers at every step can ever be.

Well, that depends...

I still find it unlikely that you could mimic proficiency in smithing through "having read, heard or otherwise learned the relevant information during gameplay", no matter the int checks you set up. Can't say I know much about smithing, but it would seem that experience in practice plays a very large role in the quality of the outcome, and that's something you can only represent through skills.
True, but that assumes you have a skill in the system.

And even if you have, it's good to also check for item use skill as well - remember, adventurers, not artisans - you may have smithing knowledge, but you are a guy wandering around the world getting in trouble for fun and profit, not someone churning out swords for life, your experience with making weapons, armour or whatever will necessarily be limited making your experience in actually using them more vital in understanding what makes a good one.

I know, but I think the problem is how you'd incorporate it into the game mechanically without it becoming cheesy. Morale makes sense: less frequent/long morale failures or whatever's the equivalent. But "efficiency"? Do you do that by giving them damage bonuses?
Damage no, but to hit and attack speed? I generally don't like systems leaning too heavily on quantification of damage.


But that'd be a worthwhile direction to take things all the same. Consistently sending your meatpuppet npc's into the grinder and holding back yourself simply because it isn't game over when they die should rightly piss them off regardless of charisma (or, rather, charisma might hold this off for a while, especially if the party member has low int, but it should at least not be the end all of party morale).
Yes and yes.
 

Rake

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We can still hope for walls of text. No PS:T level but still...

Ask Sawyer about that Infinitron to see what he will answer. Or maybe in the Codex interview.
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/476555580379526832
How PST handled dialogue from the perspective of making it more than literally just saying words to another character. PST's dialogue allowed you to do much more in conversations and helped the player feel like they were *doing* things.

I took that he meant performing actions through dialogue. That we know will be included. What i mean for the question is having descriptive text mixed with dialogue like PS:T and AoD.
Ziets:
I particularly like the way text was presented in Planescape: Torment, with both descriptive text and spoken text (in quotes) appearing together, much like text in a novel.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Well in that case what would make crafting fun?

EDIT: Also a lot of you seem to be masochistic about games. There is this one guy who said that weapon degradation is good because it is challenging (!).
There is a reason they are called games rather than masturbatory power fantasy stories, you know.

Overcoming challenge is far more fun than being conspicuously fellated by the designers at every step can ever be.
Yeah, my problem was that durability didn't sound challenging. It sounded boring and lame. If the description had made it sound like it would require more brain power than your average lab rat, I might have been for it.
 

DraQ

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Well in that case what would make crafting fun?

EDIT: Also a lot of you seem to be masochistic about games. There is this one guy who said that weapon degradation is good because it is challenging (!).
There is a reason they are called games rather than masturbatory power fantasy stories, you know.

Overcoming challenge is far more fun than being conspicuously fellated by the designers at every step can ever be.
Yeah, my problem was that durability didn't sound challenging. It sounded boring and lame. If the description had made it sound like it would require more brain power than your average lab rat, I might have been for it.
Sometimes something that alone seems pointless may be important in broader context.

For all the complaints about durability I raise you System Shock 2.
 

Gozma

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Even in SS2 it's more like a build filter/"hidden cost" to using guns rather than genuinely interesting and even that is pretty much the peak of interesting hardcoreness for the concept. Edit - I meant to stop reading this thread, fuckin alerts
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
Even in SS2 it's more like a build filter/"hidden cost" to using guns rather than genuinely interesting and even that is pretty much the peak of interesting hardcoreness for the concept. Edit - I meant to stop reading this thread, fuckin alerts

I've been trying to figure out how to AdBlock just this thread in order to help me resist the temptation to participate in conditioned autism.

I'll just have to settle for unwatching and blocking the thread title.
 

Gurkog

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There is a reason they are called games rather than masturbatory power fantasy stories, you know.

Overcoming challenge is far more fun than being conspicuously fellated by the designers at every step can ever be.

Todd Howard and the success of BGS beg to differ. :troll:
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Chris Avellone interview: http://www.gameranx.com/features/id...xtended-interview-with-chris-avellone-rezzed/


[Geraldo] Do you still hate Arcanum?

[Chris] I really like the ambience of the world, I really like the characters, I really like the quests I've been on, I feel the conversations are really clever. I really like the art style as well as the animation. I am not a fan of the interface, I think the interface is absolutely beautiful and terrible at the same time and I felt the Fallout 1 interface was absolutely beautiful and terrible at the same time as well. I was actually at an Australian conference where someone called me out and said "Hey I don't mean any disrespect to this Chris but like your design for the Fallout 1 interface was terrible" and I'm like "I didn't design the Fallout 1 interface!" but I understand all the problems that the presenter had with it.

:smug:
 

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