Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Blaine]

Project Eternal "E": Everything is Exactly as Effective as Everything Else and Everyone is Equally Exceptional

Still on-target for mediocrity in the character-building department, good work Josh.

 

[Infinitron]

Project Eternal "E": Everything is Exactly as Effective as Everything Else and Everyone is Equally Exceptional

Still on-target for mediocrity in the character-building department, good work Josh.

Uh this is how D&D 3E worked. This is Josh being loyal to how this game is expected to be.

edit: He says auxiliary combat bonuses, what is Tumble used for outside of combat in a CRPG ? My NWN memory isn't the best, I've only played both games once (finished NWN1 and gave up on NWN2 about 95% of the way in due to cbf).

I don't think you understand what "auxiliary" means. It doesn't mean non-combat skill with combat applications. It means a pure combat skill that doesn't directly affect the "core" combat values - damage rolls and to-hit rolls.

 

[Sensuki]

Maybe. I am not as pro-Sawyer as Roguey and Infinitron but I think the main difference between characters will pretty much be your choice of class and attribute selection.

In combat, classes still have different strengths by default, which is good even if you or I may not agree with the direction of all classes. I am not really a fan of the 4E-ism of Rogues and Rangers being the primary DPS giants, for instance.

The skill design isn't essentially bad, previously most skills were just okay well it doesn't really matter who takes a skill as long as someone has it. Now you can use a skill to augment your build.

I am glad that the game is not exactly "Pathfinder for 4E", but it is erring pretty close in many departments. The only thing that doesn't scream 4E is the class ability and resource design.

Uh this is how D&D 3E D&D4E worked. This is Josh being loyal to how this game is expected to be.

Bit too much 4th edition for my liking.

 

[Blaine]

Uh this is how D&D 3E worked. This is Josh being loyal to how this game is expected to be.

I thought 4e was the grand champion of character homogeneity in the name of balance?

It's hard to say, since I threw out all my D&D books in disgust in the early 2000s and switched to GURPS.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe. I am not as pro-Sawyer as Roguey and Infinitron but I think the main difference between characters will pretty much be your choice of class and attribute selection.

In combat, classes still have different strengths by default, which is good even if you or I may not agree with the direction of all classes. I am not really a fan of the 4E-ism of Rogues and Rangers being the primary DPS giants, for instance.

The skill design isn't essentially bad, previously most skills were just okay well it doesn't really matter who takes a skill as long as someone has it. Now you can use a skill to augment your build.

I am glad that the game is not exactly "Pathfinder for 4E", but it is erring pretty close in many departments. The only thing that doesn't scream 4E is the class ability and resource design.

Uh this is how D&D 3E D&D4E worked. This is Josh being loyal to how this game is expected to be.

Uh this is how D&D 3E worked. This is Josh being loyal to how this game is expected to be.

I thought 4e was the grand champion of character homogeneity in the name of balance?

It's hard to say, since I threw out all my D&D books in disgust in the early 2000s and switched to GURPS.

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I'm talking about the idea of combat skills being of relatively minor importance in their impact on combat performance. D&D has always been like that. For fuck's sake guys, I made a whole thread about this.

 

[Sensuki]

The something awful 4th edition cronies are loving the design so far, unsurprisingly.

Back when I interviewed Josh about class design he did say that it would fall somewhere between 3.5 and 4th edition.

With 11 classes, we have a lot of challenges. The ones I'm focused on are ensuring each class feels distinct, has genuine value to the player, can be built in myriad distinct ways, and does not rely on obtuse UI elements to function. 4E's classes are more homogenized than we will shoot for. I think our classes and level progression options will fall somewhere between 3.5E and 4E.

http://www.cybergamer.com.au/articl...w-with-Josh-Sawyer-of-Obsidian-Entertainment/

Which was right on the money.

Everything else however is screaming 4th edition.

I don't know what you guys are talking about.

I am talking to Blaine in that post and I am talking about the whole game.

The reason I am not as enthusiastic as you is I think D&D 4E goes way too far in homogenizing systems making building characters, and actual gameplay kind of uninteresting.

I am GLAD that class design is somewhere in the middle, but everything else ...

 

[Infinitron]

The reason I am not as enthusiastic as you is I think D&D 4E goes way too far in homogenizing systems making building characters, and actual gameplay kind of uninteresting.

I am GLAD that class design is somewhere in the middle, but everything else ...

Who says I'm enthusiastic about 4E? Why the fuck is Blaine even whining about that? We were talking about the combat skills. The combat skills work like 3E. Did he just randomly post this?

Project Eternal "E": Everything is Exactly as Effective as Everything Else and Everyone is Equally Exceptional

Still on-target for mediocrity in the character-building department, good work Josh.

What does that even have to do with what came before it?

tl;dr Stop whining Blaine

 

[Duraframe300]

Looks like Obsidian really needs those AAA Publisher contract work...
MCA is basically praising popamole design and justifying how the dialogue wheel forces players to hear the AWESOME voice acting (no doubt it contributes to EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT).
I enjoyed his previous works (Fallout 2, PST and MOTB), but if a decade or so down the line he slowly spirals like Lord British... well fuck.

Hopefully though its just fishing for AAA contracts to keep the studio employed, and it wont affect the cRPG KS projects...

Eh?

He's clearly talking about console design there, and as we all (should) know. He isn't exactly much a fan of it. (But can still appreciate some stuff)

I mean these were two of his statements in the past year:

- (Paraphrasing) Designing for console controllers suck - Interview Project Eternity

- Suck it consoles - Rezzed 2013


As a rpg designer and writer especially, he isn't anywhere near a slippery slope. As a player he likes some questionable stuff, but who the fuck cares?

Don't fall into the trap of Rougey's selective quoting.

 

[Blaine]

Who says I'm enthusiastic about 4E? Why the fuck is Blaine even whining about that? We were talking about the combat skills. The combat skills work like 3E. Did he just randomly post this?

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Pretty much.

Anyway, Josh himself described what they were shooting for as being between 3.5e and 4e, and even acknowledged the homogeneous aspect of 4e's design. It seems my observations aren't too far off the mark. I don't hang on every Tweet and update, so I'm far from expert on everything's that's been said and when, obviously. I just sponge it up occasionally and have an outburst whenever I feel like it.

Let's start fresh. Small auxiliary combat bonuses granted by skills are fine and dandy, except that it's yet another reminder that the entire character system and game are built around and focused on autistically "balanced" combat. If your character is a draconian language expert, it'll probably increase your tome accuracy by +2, for fuck's sake. While most people who aren't me have come to terms with the fact that P:E is a cRPG (combat Role-Playing Game), I continue to be aggrieved by the fact that PE will not be a "holistic" RPG, as judged by the myriad options available in an ambitious tabletop RPG in which you can build, say, a bookworm scientist tinker heir-to-a-fortune coward character.

 

[Sensuki]

ho says I'm enthusiastic about 4E? Why the fuck is Blaine even whining about that? We were talking about the combat skills. The combat skills work like 3E. Did he just randomly post this?

No it was me that brought it up. The skill design is definitely a Sawyerism, but the unification of the design is very 4E. For me Crafting was a problem skill, my argument about skill-actions being performed by one person being a bad thing was flawed as realistically in real life, it's like that as well. The best person for the job does the skill-action and your knowledge is still useful for other things.

But yeah derpy abstractions are painful. You seem to only care about the benefits, +2 to spell accuracy from Knowledge (Arcana) as Blaine put it, your reaction would be "awesome" that makes it a better choice.

But we will bang our heads on the table for sure.

 

[Infinitron]

ho says I'm enthusiastic about 4E? Why the fuck is Blaine even whining about that? We were talking about the combat skills. The combat skills work like 3E. Did he just randomly post this?

No it was me that brought it up. The skill design is definitely a Sawyerism, but the unification of the design is very 4E. For me Crafting was a problem skill, my argument about skill-actions being performed by one person being a bad thing was flawed as realistically in real life, it's like that as well. The best person for the job does the skill-action and your knowledge is still useful for other things.

But yeah derpy abstractions are painful. You seem to only care about the benefits, +2 to spell accuracy from Knowledge (Arcana) as Blaine put it, your reaction would be "awesome" that makes it a better choice.

But we will bang our heads on the table for sure.

OK, but I don't why you're assuming (on the Obsidian forums) that combat skills will work the same way. The whole advantage of combat skills is that they DON'T need to be artificially shoehorned into other roles like Crafting was. They work fine on their own, because Combat Is Always Useful.

 

[Sensuki]

I'm not assuming they'll work the same way, I don't even think they'll be included because they don't specifically match the design of the other presented skills.

Concentration was omitted from 4E. However there will be spell disruption in P:E, so perhaps Concentration will come back ... but I can see them doing without it. Concentration (being a pure combat skill) doesn't match the designs of Stealth, Mechanics or ex-Crafting.

Your example of why a skill like Tumble or Acrobatics should be included isn't a bad one, but there won't be an animation for it and it's purely a combat skill with no other use, which doesn't match Stealth, Mechanics or ex-Crafting (but it would in P&P). I believe that this would fall into a talent rather than a skill, where if a character wants to get some Roguey slipperiness in combat they have to spend a talent as that seems more in line with the class design. But still, your guess isn't a bad one and you may in fact be right.

(btw I think we've scared 90% of the codex out of this thread)

 

[Rivmusique]

Combat skill points are a different pool than 'non-combat' (stealth, crafting etc.). So they wouldn't need to match.

 

[Sensuki]

There are no combat skills. There is one pool of skills.

Combat and non-combat skills being separate. In 2nd Ed. AD&D, this is just how it worked. In the IE games (other than IWD2), thieves and bards got percentile skill points, everyone got weapon proficiencies, and that was pretty much it. In IWD2, you got skill points and feats separately. There was overlap in combat/non-combat utility with feats and spells, but otherwise your combat and non-combat ability advanced through different mechanics. A lot of people really reacted negatively to the idea of these two things being purchased with separate currencies and it surprised me.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post407881221

There are just skills and talents.

The reason I believe that there won't be a "Concentration" or a "Tumble" is I think that Josh Sawyer is "aspie" if you like, about the unified mathematical function of a system.

Concentration, Tumble etc would not function like the other skills as they would be purely for combat, and would have no non-combat application beyond dialogue. As Infinitron stated there are reasons for these skills to exist, but I think that they would have gone out of their way to omit them. Tumble will probably be a talent or something and Concentration is probably not even in the game. That's just my hunch and I openly admit I may be incorrect.

 

[Infinitron]

There are no combat skills. There is one pool of skills.

???

How does that post prove that? He's describing how the old games worked, he's not describing Project Eternity. On the contrary, the post is trying to show why two skill pools is a perfectly valid idea.

I think Sensuki is drunk today or something

 

[Sensuki]

Are you serious that you actually think that skills will be split into two pools, one of non-combat skills and one of combat skills?

If that was the case, Stealth would be a combat skill, no doubt about it.

There will be one pool of skills, I'll also bet a month ban on that.

 

[Infinitron]

Are you serious that you actually think that skills will be split into two pools, one of non-combat skills and one of combat skills?

That's the most straightforward interpretation of this update. You claim "combat skills" aren't actually going to be "skills" at all? Fine, let's ask.

 

[Sensuki]

Are you serious that you actually think that skills will be split into two pools, one of non-combat skills and one of combat skills?

That's the most straightforward interpretation of this update.

Sure if you read the update but not the content

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

 

[Infinitron]

Are you serious that you actually think that skills will be split into two pools, one of non-combat skills and one of combat skills?

That's the most straightforward interpretation of this update.

Sure if you read the update but not the content

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I don't understand how the bolded text in any way refutes the notion of there being two separate skill categories/pools.

 

[Sensuki]

The bolded text is bolded in the update on Kickstarter the formatting copied when I pasted it across. It's the unbolded text where he says Magic Missle and Herbalism. It is clear Tim Cain is not talking specifically about D&D skills.

Also the fact that

There have never been two pools of skills in D&D even though perhaps there should have been or should be
Josh Sawyer has never mentioned that there are two pools of skills
Stealth being a combat skill, is a non-combat skill
Josh has been matching skills with no combat application with the combat efficacy of Stealth
The Rogue gets a bonus to Stealth and Mechanics, if there were two pools of skills, the design would be a bonus to a combat skill, and a non-combat skill, or two non-combat skills and a non-combat skill, or something along those lines, so there would be another skill mentioned in there
And many other things

All of this information is indicative of one skill pool.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Looks like Obsidian really needs those AAA Publisher contract work...
MCA is basically praising popamole design and justifying how the dialogue wheel forces players to hear the AWESOME voice acting (no doubt it contributes to EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT).
I enjoyed his previous works (Fallout 2, PST and MOTB), but if a decade or so down the line he slowly spirals like Lord British... well fuck.

Hopefully though its just fishing for AAA contracts to keep the studio employed, and it wont affect the cRPG KS projects...

Eh?

He's clearly talking about console design there, and as we all (should) know. He isn't exactly much a fan of it. (But can still appreciate some stuff)

I mean these were two of his statements in the past year:

- (Paraphrasing) Designing for console controllers suck - Interview Project Eternity

- Suck it consoles - Rezzed 2013


As a rpg designer and writer especially, he isn't anywhere near a slippery slope. As a player he likes some questionable stuff, but who the fuck cares?

Don't fall into the trap of Rougey's selective quoting.

Looks like Obsidian really needs those AAA Publisher contract work...
MCA is basically praising popamole design and justifying how the dialogue wheel forces players to hear the AWESOME voice acting (no doubt it contributes to EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT).
I enjoyed his previous works (Fallout 2, PST and MOTB), but if a decade or so down the line he slowly spirals like Lord British... well fuck.

Hopefully though its just fishing for AAA contracts to keep the studio employed, and it wont affect the cRPG KS projects...

It's that. Obsidian cannot afford to condemn modern games and publisers like Fargo did,at least not yet. They are too big.
In the previous interview Avellone said that he would like Obsidian to come to a point to be working on 3-4 PE style games at the same time,some kickstarted and some not, because that was Black Isle.
If they manage to come to that point, then they could be more picky with publisers and negociate their contracts at their own terms, because they will not need to take them. Until then, they will continiue the fishing for publisers to stay in buisness.

Agree with you on the paraphrasing thing, but that was very mild compared to Brian Fargo... and it was in context of PE (and cRPGs in general)

I meant that MCA (and Obsidian in general) was being real careful about praising some aspects popamole design (dialogue wheel, full voice acting) in general, which just showed that they are open to work on popamole games for big publishers.

the bold parts in the quotes pretty much sums up my opinion on that matter.

 

[Infinitron]

The bolded text is bolded in the update on Kickstarter the formatting copied when I pasted it across. It's the unbolded text where he says Magic Missle and Herbalism. It is clear Tim Cain is not talking specifically about D&D skills.

Also the fact that

There have never been two pools of skills in D&D even though perhaps there should have been or should be
Josh Sawyer has never mentioned that there are two pools of skills
Stealth being a combat skill, is a non-combat skill
Josh has been matching skills with no combat application with the combat efficacy of Stealth
The Rogue gets a bonus to Stealth and Mechanics, if there were two pools of skills, the design would be a bonus to a combat skill, and a non-combat skill, or two non-combat skills and a non-combat skill, or something along those lines, so there would be another skill mentioned in there
And many other things

All of this information is indicative of one skill pool.

I guess it would be better from Josh's perspective to try to attach as many combat perks as possible onto a non-combat skill, rather than "waste them" by turning them into a pure combat skill.

Let's see what the man replies.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Are you serious that you actually think that skills will be split into two pools, one of non-combat skills and one of combat skills?

That's the most straightforward interpretation of this update.

Sure if you read the update but not the content

Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I don't understand how the bolded text in any way refutes the notion of there being two separate skill categories/pools.

The bolded text is bolded in the update on Kickstarter the formatting copied when I pasted it across. It's the unbolded text where he says Magic Missle and Herbalism. It is clear Tim Cain is not talking specifically about D&D skills.

Also the fact that

There have never been two pools of skills in D&D even though perhaps there should have been or should be
Josh Sawyer has never mentioned that there are two pools of skills
Stealth being a combat skill, is a non-combat skill
Josh has been matching skills with no combat application with the combat efficacy of Stealth
The Rogue gets a bonus to Stealth and Mechanics, if there were two pools of skills, the design would be a bonus to a combat skill, and a non-combat skill, or two non-combat skills and a non-combat skill, or something along those lines, so there would be another skill mentioned in there
And many other things

All of this information is indicative of one skill pool.

Well, IMO JSawyer meant that the resource(s) used for non-combat skills will be different. Did he mean skill point allocation and/or cost to use them. Judging by the wording

You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism

, I think he meant talent/abilities vs skills. Although, if they do have separate pool of combat/non combat skills, I can see many resources being awarded on levelup. Attribute Points, talents/abilities (which again there is compulsory class specific/free point), skills (again possibly subdivided into combat/noncombat).

My question is:
If there is a separate pool of noncombat/combat skills, why the fuck is he so anal-retentive about insisting non-combat skills have a combat bonus and be viable for multiple characters to take?. Again, I think stealth is a solid case. Imo, stealth is a combat skill (be more efficient positioning wise or avoid ti altogether...sure there can eb skill checks in dialogue in non combat situations...), but he is discussing it by heavily comparing it to ex-crafting.

 

[Duraframe300]

I meant that MCA (and Obsidian in general) was being real careful about praising some aspects popamole design (dialogue wheel, full voice acting) in general, which just showed that they are open to work on popamole games for big publishers
the bold parts in the quotes pretty much sums up my opinion on that matter.

Of course they are open to work on big publisher games. They actually love working on licenses for one.

But still no, he isn't THAT careful compared to other designers, for example while MCA does say *well there's this thing about that* he always says so with a *but* or adds something that is rather negative about it. (Especially in written interviews where he has longer to answer he contains a lot of snarkiness)

For example in several interviews regarding full-voice acting he basically says *Well, it works for this type of game*. Or *Well, full voice acting works when you can see the charachters speak*

etc. There's tons of other examples

Also cue to Dead Money which he did only two years ago which had A: A *fuck you* to full voice acting (Christine) and a *fuck you* to quest compasses (Elijah Dialouge)

 

[Roguey]

Sensuki's right, there are skills (which all have both non-combat and combat applications), talents (feats), and abilities. Josh's answer seems pretty clear to me.

PS http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/371907

As players advance their characters, they have the ability to choose class-specific abilities and more class-neutral talents (more like perks or feats) to customize their character capabilities. If you want to keep your fighters very low maintenance, there are a large number of passive fighter abilities and combat-oriented talents that you can buy. If you'd like to make a fighter that's much more "active-use" (more like a 4E fighter), you can choose to buy more modal and active abilities. Similarly, while all wizards gain additional spells, you can use talents to boost a wizard's damage with implement weapons and Blasts, making them more useful when you're not having them chain-cast a series of limited-use spells.

The same also applies to skills, which are used for a variety of non-combat purposes. All classes start out with bonuses in the skills that their classes most commonly use, but players can choose to reinforce or play against that top. If you want to make a paladin who delights in picking locks, you can do that and get a lot of utility out of the skill -- though the character will never be quite as good as a rogue who specializes in it.