Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Excidium]

Bullshit. There's a lot of guns with different firing modes, ammo, grenades...

 

[Excidium]

Fantasy-themed games do not have this limitation because they offer you a greater wealth of methods to attack, basically.

Yeah, aoe, single target, direct damage and over time.

 

[Infinitron]

And then there's buffs, and magical defenses, and summons, and healing...

There's a reason why fantasy settings are so popular for CRPGs, you know.

 

[tuluse]

Complexity != difficulty. If guns and health were modeled realistically, the game would be a lot more "punishing" than any fantasy cRPG while being less complex.

Not that actual real warfare is simplistic. Guns, grenades, bombs (dropped from aircraft), armored vehicles, chemical weapons, etc. Humans are pretty good at killing each other without needing cloudkill or lightning.

 

[felipepepe]

Advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic.

If we have robots, the sky is the limit.

 

[Infinitron]

Complexity != difficulty. If guns and health were modeled realistically, the game would be a lot more "punishing" than any fantasy cRPG while being less complex.

Not that actual real warfare is simplistic. Guns, grenades, bombs (dropped from aircraft), armored vehicles, chemical weapons, etc. Humans are pretty good at killing each other without needing cloudkill or lightning.

That's true. The other advantage of fantasy settings is that you can nerf the effects of attacks without losing as much verisimilitude, so you can make a game that's not insanely punishing but still has tactical depth

 

[Excidium]

There's a reason why fantasy settings are so popular for CRPGs, you know.

And it has nothing to do with the subject at hand

I'm done here because this whole "convince Infinitron he's full of shit" got old fast

 

[Grunker]

'speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerg

W2 builds on Fallout and Wasteland. It has width of interaction but is shallow in its combat mechanics. Everything we know about Wasteland 2 supports that it will be just as simple and basic as its predecessors except with the added layer of cover. It will have a few basic combat actions keyed to a few items and that's it. Tactics will be rooted in positioning and using the right items at the right time (but mostly positioning). Strategy consists mainly of pumping the one or two combat skills your characters rely on.

To compare, P:E will have exactly the same focus as well as a huge wealth of active and passive abilities that will interact with each other on top of that in the tactical department. There are many more variables. In the strategic department, you have a wealth of choices beyond just a few skills as well.

 

[tuluse]

Wasteland 2 looks a lot more complex than either it's predecessor or it's spiritual predecessor. It has overwatch, different heights, cover affecting to hit chance (instead of just LOS), group control with positioning that matters. I think I even read that it's going to have destructible cover.

 

[Rake]

Maybe if you tweak it a bit. But it was already said that PE will keep the tradition of normal being the new easy

Well, i expect the others from inXile to be the same or worse. Like it or not, we can't have the retards gamers lose at normal. The game would be unbalanced.... not their brains deficient

I don't think Wasteland 2 will be intentionally easy.

Was Fallouts intentionally easy? Wasteland? To me it seems that just isn't the focus of Interplay/Black Isle RPGs in the first place. They were about setting,story,reactivity,characters. depending on the game.
But not a single one of them were about difficult, extreeeem tacticool combat. IWDs were the closer to that but still....
No RPG from inXile/Obsidian will have JA combat.

 

[Rake]

Wasteland 2 looks a lot more complex than either it's predecessor or it's spiritual predecessor. It has overwatch, different heights, cover affecting to hit chance (instead of just LOS), group control with positioning that matters. I think I even read that it's going to have destructible cover.

More complex =!! more difficult. SRR was more complex than Fallout, but it was even easier

 

[Grunker]

Wasteland 2 looks a lot more complex than either it's predecessor or it's spiritual predecessor. It has overwatch, different heights, cover affecting to hit chance (instead of just LOS), group control with positioning that matters. I think I even read that it's going to have destructible cover.

So exactly what I wrote. Neo-XCOM also had destructible cover. That's still nothing next to the amount of variables P:E will have. You're blind if you think W2 combat will be anywhere near as complex of P:E combat, regardless of whatever else you may think of the two games.

 

[Gurkog]

Cloudkill, fireball? Infinitron never heard of incendiary and chemical weapons?

Instead of lightning bolt you could have Rechargeable Tasers.

Then you forget about all kinds of drugs and shit that can increase performance, combat effectiveness, resist chemical agents, etc...

I think fantasy is overrated.

 

[Infinitron]

Cloudkill, fireball? Infinitron never heard of incendiary and chemical weapons?

Instead of lightning bolt you could have Rechargeable Tasers.

Then you forget about all kinds of drugs and shit that can increase performance, combat effectiveness, resist chemical agents, etc...

I think fantasy is overrated.

The difference is that in fantasy settings these things tend to be much more ubiquitous. Regardless of what you think of fantasy settings, it can't be denied that they're an excellent sandbox for diverse tactical gameplay.

 

[tuluse]

So exactly what I wrote. Neo-XCOM also had destructible cover. That's still nothing next to the amount of variables P:E will have. You're blind if you think W2 combat will be anywhere near as complex of P:E combat, regardless of whatever else you may think of the two games.

I didn't mention P:E, but if you think W2 looks like Fallout + cover, that's insane. Neo-XCOM also is a more complex combat system than Fallout or Wasteland 1. Wasteland 2 looks more complex just because it uses real action points.

 

[Excidium]

I can't really say which one will have more combat depth without a crystal ball

But having a lot of abilities really doesn't offer that much depth, specially in a system that is so concerned with being balanced and homogeneous. Check out all those ways to deal direct damage with small variations of the same shit, so much depth

 

[Grunker]

Neo-XCOM also is a more complex combat system than Fallout or Wasteland 1.

Yet way, way less complex than P:E.

 

[Infinitron]

homogeneous. Check out all those ways to deal direct damage with small variations of the same shit, so much depth

You know if you actually looked at the known class abilities for PE you'd see there's no sign of this kind of design

 

[Excidium]

All we've seen so far are the unique class abilities.

 

[Grunker]

homogeneous.

If you think P:E is looking to be homogeneous like 4E (as in small variations on abilities) you haven't been following it very closely IMO. Besides Sawyer outright saying he wants more differantiation between classes, all abilities we've seen so far have spoken to the opposite.

P:E ending up with completely similar abilities is about as likely as Wasteland 2 ending up with JA2 mechanics.

 

[Excidium]

They look different because all the abilities we've seen so far are the special mechanics that are meant to differentiate one class from the other.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Possibility is not the same as intent. Dark Souls does not appear designed with imbalance as an intent. Though you'd be forgiven for thinking that with such stunningly useful stats as Resistance.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of imbalance just because it's not designed to be imbalanced. If it were that simple, RTS games would never need patching. And "the meta" would not be a thing.

I guess I am just that PE is RTwP and kiddie-level difficulty.

P:E has good probability of being more difficult than both Torment and Wasteland.

EDIT: Also, it seems you like Shadowrun, which must be about the easiest RPG I've ever played.

SRR was TB and isometric, that allowed me to ignore its very hard is the new normal combat.

Also in shadowrun you could screw your build in many ways. JE wants to end that.

The only design decision i like is no xp for killing stuff, but xp for you know actually completing goals, so that alternate routes are viable in at least some cases.


Ok still butthurt about RTwP. All the balancing and stuff josh faps about would be a lot easier 9and thus cheaper) and robust on TB

 

[Rake]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/488806030524829658

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/488806030524829658

Josh proves himself.

 

[Roguey]

And we're back to http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-eternity-thread.75947/page-791#post-2772492

It's been nine months so I better see a vertical slice video this month. One that will no doubt blow Wasteland 2's and Shadowrun Returns's away.