Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Roguey I forgot to mention that the beta tests also serve as an extended QA. These Kickstarter projects don't exactly have huge budgets to spend on doing that professionally. And of course that's something that is particularly important for Obsidian.

 

[Sensuki]

Why would anyone use uncompressed wav when flac exists?

Unity does not natively support FLAC. FLAC files require a higher output buffer (delay) than mp3s or run the risk of stutter.

All this beta access is proving to be pretty worthless regardless.

Uh, what's your basis for this statement. No major Kickstarter has had its beta start yet, while Early Access/beta has already proven valuable for Age of Decadence, Might & Magic X and Blackguards.

and Grim Dawn

 

[tuluse]

I hope they wouldn't be so stupid as to create beta-only content unless they're also going to release that as a demo for free when or just before the full game is out.

All this beta access is proving to be pretty worthless regardless. And Torment and D:OS offered alpha access too, that is going to be a laugh riot.

In Torment's case I bet it's fake alpha. Plus they're building off of W2's modifications of Unity, so they're going to have a lot done already.

Those are games made by amateurs who desperately need course correction and not the king of RPG design.

You've been pretty positive about W2 the last few updates. The amateurs might have a few tricks up their sleeves.

 

[Sensuki]

We currently have (and will continue to make) optional encounters that are too macho for your projected level going into them. There's an encounter in our vertical slice area that wipes almost everyone on the team who goes into it. It can be beaten with an "underleveled" group, but it requires a lot of tactical retreating and careful party management.

Sweet. Sweet. Hope that encounter stays!

It will. It's only gotten harder over time.

 

[Sensuki]

Cool cheers rj.

One other question I can think of

We haven't heard much information on the Godlike race for a while.

It was previously stated that the Godlike race was going to be a "sub-option" of all races, not just humans.

Does being a Godlike give different bonuses depending on race, and are the Godlike 'types' being handled by the Ethnicity option ?

Godlike are handled differently than the other races in chargen. We haven't implemented it yet, but in the current plan is that you can choose what type of Godlike you want to be, and the race of your parents. Godlike types have special bonuses too.

 

[Duraframe300]

Seeking help of russian codex

http://www.3dnews.ru/769913

Is that a new interview?

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Race affects attributes, but ethnicity does not.

I would love it if the devs had the balls to give the various ethnicities and genders different base stats, I can't think of any modern game that did that.("Modern" being anything in the last 4 years or so..)

 

[Sensuki]

I particularly enjoyed this bit from Google Translate

3DNews:Among your inspirations was like a fantasy and a fantastic future.Why did you stop at the first version? Post-Apocalyptic popular now than ever: Call of Duty even experimenting with a similar direction.Although we miss the epic fantasy adventure. Somebody is high time to kick Dragon Age.

Josh:I think, Wasteland 2 fills this niche perfectly, and all the game engine, Infinity were about fantasy football (even Torment, although it is in terms of supplies of the universe to a particular style is very ambiguous).Actually, so we wanted to do something in the same spirit.

Some of the more comprehensible bits from Google Translate

3DNews:Let's take a closer look at the game world.Was he inspired by other universes religions?Is it pure fantasy - or you can wait for the elements of steampunk? On izorazheniyah we noticed a firearm. Does not this mean the presence of particles in the world Arcanum Project Eternity?

Josh: I can not say that the creation of the world Project Eternity we were inspired by something specific, but its early design was heavily influenced by the first editions of Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. We have also included some real historical elements of the mythology of the game. For example, the holy Veydven (St. Waidwen), one of the most prominent figures of the universe PE, was inspired by the farmer-preacher Hans Boehm (Hans Böhm), who started the infamous revolution in Franconia (one of the regions of Germany. -approx.'s website).

3DNews: We've always liked your games, because their stories were filled with the spirit of great adventure and almost never rolled down to the commonplace "Gather an army / artifact and punish подставить_имя_ужасного_зла."Project Eternity will adhere to this position?Or maybe there will be something like the first two Fallout, when from the very start, the player will be placed some final goal?

Josh: First, I want to note that Fallout still too focused on the story, but presents it through absolute freedom to achieve the goal.This item is in our country and in the Project Eternity, but our history is more "structured", the same as Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and thus much more freely than in a series of Icewind Dale.

3DNews:In the story of your projects teammates have always played a big role.Are there many supporters will be the hero of Project Eternity?How much they will affect the story of how we will be able to interact with them?Skeletons in the closet and special quests, hopefully, are attached?

Josh:Of course, included.Companions - a very important part of the Project Eternity.They will help in understanding the situation, will respond to the actions that you make (or do not make).The interaction between them is also planned: they can be your friends, but do not necessarily feel good about each other.Some of them, perhaps all will have ulterior motives and use you.Many of the characters have their own story line, which is somehow connected with the main story.We think this is extremely important, not only the main character must be a reason toparticipatein this campaign.Your allies can go with you, but their goals are strikingly different from your own.

 

[Sensuki]

SCO

I pasted some of your scripting questions from the Codex Q&A to Adam Brennecke in a thread

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64506-to-all-of-our-backers-and-fans/page-7#entry1380993

The PE engine, scripting, and tools are completely different from IE so it's like comparing apples to airplanes. Avellone was referring to similar feature functionality to IE, but behind the scenes the games aren't built the same way.

 

[Jedi Exile]

Seeking help of russian codex

http://www.3dnews.ru/769913

Is that a new interview?

It seems so, but it doesn't contain any new info. This is just basic QA with Josh and Adam. Questions are pretty meh.

I particularly enjoyed this bit from Google Translate

3DNews:Among your inspirations was like a fantasy and a fantastic future.Why did you stop at the first version? Post-Apocalyptic popular now than ever: Call of Duty even experimenting with a similar direction.Although we miss the epic fantasy adventure. Somebody is high time to kick Dragon Age.

Josh:I think, Wasteland 2 fills this niche perfectly, and all the game engine, Infinity were about fantasy football (even Torment, although it is in terms of supplies of the universe to a particular style is very ambiguous).Actually, so we wanted to do something in the same spirit.

Football? WTF? Football wasn't even mentioned. The correct translation is 'all Infinity engine games belong to fantasy setting (even Torment, though it is difficult to place this game's universe into any particular type of setting)'.

 

[Delterius]

The thing about 'football' is that Battleground Infinity was a really weird game. Don't we all know Prosper used to work on BioWare?

 

[Shadenuat]

Seeking help of russian codex

http://www.3dnews.ru/769913

Is that a new interview?

Nothing of much value. Maybe just this part:

"As for technological progress, our world is close to XVI century Europe. Guns and ocean going ships are common. The only exception is printing press, so books in P:E are all hand written.
Religions in P:E are based on souls - how one's soul shapes one's character, how it changes and is reborn. There is a science dedicated to that exclusively - animancy. With that some try to merge souls with material things. It's not an easy topic and some countries do not accept that. In some regions it's punishable."

Although we knew that too I guess, so yeah, not much value in this interview, just same as any other you can find.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

IIRC, there was some lore about how necromancy is forbidden, and how some secret society is rumored to suppress its practitioners. Any new info on that bit?

 

[Athelas]

They should do a new-game + mechanic wherein the soul of your previous character is reincarnated in your new character, transferring some skills/attributes.

 

[Sensuki]

IIRC, there was some lore about how necromancy is forbidden, and how some secret society is rumored to suppress its practitioners. Any new info on that bit?

I can't read russian but they do bring up animancy.

Dodgy google translate

And of course, there will be plenty of magic, it's a fantasy. Religious movements in PE tied to the "spirituality": the soul of a person affects his character as it changes and how reborn. Devoted to the study of these issues during the whole scientific - animansiya.With the help of some people try to connect the soul with mechanical things.This is a very delicate topic, and not all of the races or nations approve it.In some regions, such activity is strictly prohibited and severely punished.

They should do a new-game + mechanic wherein the soul of your previous character is reincarnated in your new character, transferring some skills/attributes.

Ain't gonna happen but making a different main character should be good enough if characters play differently. Theres also various difficulty modes, you could always start on easy and work your way up =P

 

[Roguey]

We currently have (and will continue to make) optional encounters that are too macho for your projected level going into them. There's an encounter in our vertical slice area that wipes almost everyone on the team who goes into it. It can be beaten with an "underleveled" group, but it requires a lot of tactical retreating and careful party management.

Sweet. Sweet. Hope that encounter stays!

It will. It's only gotten harder over time.

I hope he keeps in mind the harsh lessons learned by Jeff Vogel
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-bushwhacking-your-players-is-bad.html

It's like this. I have long thought it was cool to, in any given area in a game, place one encounter that was far harder than the stuff around it. It would be some special named or boss with tougher abilities and better loot. These little nuggets of toughness were always optional and always had special text warning the player that there was a really nasty foe here.

The basic idea behind this was that it gave the player a challenge. A place to stretch his or her abilities. Something to come back and try later to test your strength and see how much power you have gained. Sure, it'll slaughter you the first couple of times you run across it, but it will give you the motivation to work harder and prevail! It's a hardcore gamer way of thinking. This sort of thing is something I think is neat and has a place, if you're very, very careful about it.

But in Avernum 6, I went way, WAY too far with this. There were way too many encounters that were rough and meant to be returned to later. I actually had one bandit dungeon where the boss was super-tough. "Ah," I thought, in a moment of exhaustion and idiocy. "This will be cool. The player will kill the early bandits, get some lewt, and then see that the final boss is an entirely different sort of character and back off and come back later."

How sadistic and stupid is that? To let the player fight through a dungeon and not give the satisfaction of finishing it off. To add one more item to an ever-increasing list of things to remember to return to. To doom most players to several attempts to kill the boss and getting slaughtered before they figure out that they have to return later, wasting their time and goodwill.

I just patched Avernum 6 and removed a bunch of those dumb encounters, but the structure of the game means there are a few that have to stay. That really aggravates me. But, at last, after fifteen years, I think I have finally learned the main lesson:

Difficulty In a Game Should Have a Curve With As Few Bumps As Possible

When you are supposed to enter an area, you should be able to handle all of the encounters and quests in that area. Want to put in something tough? Save it for the next area. Seriously.

There is no way around this. If you put in a little nugget of difficulty, most players will still try to take it on. And they will fail and be frustrated and hate you and not play your next game.

When you suddenly make the game's difficulty jump without warning, you aren't playing fair with the player. And if you give a warning, most players will ignore it. I swear, I put in "OMG this room ahead is megahard guys srsly!!!" warnings all the time, and nobody ever listens to them. Nor should they. Characters in games tell them how lethal the territory ahead is all the time, and then they enter it and prevail. No reason to think things should be different here.

If there's an unexplored area, people will enter it. And, if they get killed, they won't remember that they were warned. They'll just hate you.

Also, making players go back to already-explored areas is bad form. People have enough to worry about in their lives as it is without remembering where they left behind some giant they need to go back and kill. Some games pad out their length by making you paw over old dungeons looking for secret goodies (and Batman: Arkham Asylum and Shadow Complex do manage to make this fun), but, unless you handle it really well, most of the time it's best to just let the player go on to cool new stuff.

Of Course, There Are Exceptions

There's no need to be absolute about it. Putting one or two badasses in your game can be all right, if they're cool. A perfect example is in Dragon Age: Origins. There's this valley with a dragon in it. When you enter, you see the dragon sleeping there. Then you find a gong. And, if you ring the gong, the dragon wakes up, flies over, and hands out the pwnage. You can beat it, but it's really tough.

This is a perfect example of how to handle a difficulty spike. Totally optional. Very clear that it's there. And, if you get yourself killed, you totally know you deserved it. And it's the ONLY encounter like that. So that's OK.

But outside that? Players hate to lose. You're in the Adolescent Power Fantasy business, after all. If the player has every reason to expect that they should be winning, you should let them win. Or, at least, have a very good chance of not dying.

Okay he can safely ignore those last few sentences.

 

[Sensuki]

So basically you hate difficulty spikes Roguey?

Serious answer:

He's not wrong about the unkillable boss bit, that is dumb but there's nothing wrong with a few difficulty spikes here and there - ESPECIALLY in a non-linear game.

It's in linear games where it gets more frustrating for people. The Witcher 2 was pretty funny, out of all of the people I know that played it, I was one of the only people that didn't quit after a certain boss fight in the prologue (the one in that enclosed courtyard after you go up some stairs, then to the left through 2 doors), or the swamp monster boss fight (which wasn't really a fight but anyway).

In v1.0 it took me probably over 10 gos to beat both, maybe even nearly 20 (because the controls were terrible and once I got frustrated I started making silly mistakes). They were both harder than any other encounter in the game IMO.

The first fight against Letho was pretty tough as well on Hardest difficulty, harder than the epilogue optional fight.

Baldur's Gate 2 is another game where the difficulty curves are non-linear. The main story doesn't really have any hard fights. In my very first time playing it I think the Spellhold Irenicus fight I had to reload a few times, but the endgame one I didn't. The harder fights were the sewer encounter, Enclave in the Temple District, Dragons (for a noob), some of the Underdark stuff etc.

 

[Roguey]

I'm against "having to remember to go back and kill a thing you tried to kill hours ago."

Though I haven't had to deal with it too often.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Sensuki Thanks for the animancy info bit. Not much as i hjoped but eh. Sure hope PE is storyfag enough.

Also, i agree with josh about the difficulty spikes. Lets not listen to Vogel's advice on game design from when he started working on Avadon (what a massive piece of shit)

 

[Sensuki]

I'm going to assume that the first chapter of the game will be designed like early BG2/Dragon Age or the Icewind Dales in that it will be linear or you'll be restricted to a certain set of areas. Defiance Bay makes sense for this to take place. You'll probably be like level 3-4 by the end of it before you're up to full explore mode (this is full conjecture btw).

At that point I think you'll be free (Josh has stated so in posts here or there) to go wherever you like and there'll be content/areas that will be designed for level 7-8 characters probably. Those areas will probably entail coming back and trying again.

I forget the stats but I think *most* of the BG1 wilderness material at least on the southern part of the map was pretty contained. Areas close to Candlekeep were mostly level 1-3 encounters. Stuff down the middle and on the bottom of the map was levels 2-4 ish. Maps on the very sides were a bit tougher (Basilisk area, Sirine areas). Cloakwood was pretty cakewalk as well. Sensible area design or difficulty placement but encounter-wise more boring than BG2.

I think New Vegas had really tough shit off to the sides didn't it ? I haven't played it.

 

[Rake]

Players hate to lose. You're in the Adolescent Power Fantasy business, after all. If the player has every reason to expect that they should be winning, you should let them win.

By retards, for retards.

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas has a lot of signposts warning of danger, and like Jeff Vogel said, lots of players ignored those signs and died many times to deathclaws and cazadores.

 

[Rake]

New Vegas has a lot of signposts warning of danger, and like Jeff Vogel said, lots of players ignored those signs and died many times to deathclaws and cazadores.

And how is this F:NV fault?

 

[Sensuki]

Did you die Roguey?

I'm not fooled for a second that you care about players other than yourself dying to shit. I know I don't.

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas has a lot of signposts warning of danger, and like Jeff Vogel said, lots of players ignored those signs and died many times to deathclaws and cazadores.

And how is this F:NV fault?

It isn't. But Bethesda fans aren't used to having to work for their rewards so it's funny.