Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Sensuki]

We aren't really sure what DT values are being used but from all of the examples the ranges have been from like 8-12 or so (Chain to Plate), those are probably just examples though.

Example damage has generally been high (like double, 1.5x IE damage values)

and Attacks and Defenses use a 100 point scale.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Second of all, so what? So you're overlevelled for an area. You're going to kick that area's ass regardless. Your attack rolls are higher, you HP is higher, you're better in every way. If you want a challenge, go elsewhere.

Let me explain - the purpose of the bleedthroughs is not to somehow balance against the effect of your DT growing too high. The bleedthroughs exist in order to smooth out the damage curve over the course of a battle against an evenly matched enemy, because the only way to get 0 damage should be dodging the enemy's attack, not absorbing it.

Except that's explicitly not how Sawyer himself sees it:

Because it makes the game boring against certain enemy types once you get heavy enough armor. With MinDam set to 0.0, eventually you can literally just walk around a horde of guys pounding you with low-end weapons and never take any damage. It doesn't really produce good long-term game play.

The bleedthrough damage is not a major design element, it's just a technical thing. It is not analogous to DR.

It is analogous: it solves the DT problem by allowing you to set relatively high DT values, without causing the invulnerability problem. But instead of the DR+DT approach which creates excessively wonkey math because it affects damages that wildly exceed the DT (the 100 damage rocket), it just applies DR to low damage ranges, making the problem less glaring. Ironically, the one advantage (arguably) that you get with DT+DR is that certain baddies you completely overpower can't harm you, which bleed through does allow them to. But I think on the whole that Sawyer's system is probably somewhat better.

 

[Infinitron]

Except that's explicitly not how Sawyer himself sees it:

Because it makes the game boring against certain enemy types once you get heavy enough armor. With MinDam set to 0.0, eventually you can literally just walk around a horde of guys pounding you with low-end weapons and never take any damage. It doesn't really produce good long-term game play.

Sees what? He's describing the DR in FO:NV, not a "bleedthrough" minimum damage mechanic.

It is analogous: it solves the DT problem by allowing you to set relatively high DT values, without causing the invulnerability problem.

Just because it CAN solve that problem doesn't mean it's its main purpose. It's more of a side effect.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Sees what? He's describing the DR in FO:NV, not a "bleedthrough" minimum damage mechanic.

Roguey quoted it as an example of the rationale behind minimum damage for Sawyer. Funny that you would call it DR, because Sawyer calls it minimum damage (though like I said, it's effectively the same thing in practice, except applied under instead of over DT). What makes you think minimum damage will work differently from NV in PE?

 

[Infinitron]

Sees what? He's describing the DR in FO:NV, not a "bleedthrough" minimum damage mechanic.

Roguey quoted it as an example of the rationale behind minimum damage for Sawyer. Funny that you would call it DR, because Sawyer calls it minimum damage (though like I said, it's effectively the same thing in practice). What makes you think minimum damage will work differently from NV in PE?

I don't know about the specific implementation in NV, but in general, a DR-based system can ensure that low level enemies remain a somewhat credible threat to the player, if that's your goal as a designer.

In contrast, enemies that hit with 1-2 hitpoint attacks simply aren't a credible threat to anyone. That's why I don't believe the minimum damage mechanic is primarily intended to fix the "problem" of underpowered lower level enemies (There's nothing wrong with them being underpowered!) All it does is ensure that the player can't completely ignore them.

 

[Delterius]

One of these days one of you should totally compile a sawyeristic glossary. I mean, this will hardly be the last boring Update and... man, people used to think that computer generated THAC0 was too intricate and complex.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Sensuki Infinitron Jim the Dinosaur

Setting aside my immense butthurt for RTwP and Obsidian's casual friendly approach, what Sawyer said about DR/DT actually makes sense.

But I also kinda agree with jim about a low dmg weapon doing same damage against medium/heavy armour if the DT exceeds weapon damage.

From what I gather, minDmg is a fixed percentage across all armour types. So an example, correct me if I am wrong:

A knife with no DT negation and a damage of 20 attacks. minDmg bleed through is 0.2

So on a studded leather jacket wearing target with a DT of 18 and no other sorces of cumlative DR/DT or any damage type resistance/vulnerability, knife will do minimum 4 dmg

On a similar chain mail wearing target with no dmg type modifiers and DT of 24, the knife will still do 4 dmg

Similarly on 30DT Plate, knife still does 4 dmg

Why not have something like this?

minDMG for light is 0.2base
minDmg for medium is 0.15base
minDmg for heavy is 0.1base

So knife does 4/3/2 dmg respectively. And the encumbrance/movement/stealth penalties for heavy armour seem more attractive... when facing multiple underpowered foes

Thoughts?

Roguey Josh Sawyer's thoughts?

 

[uaciaut]

I get his point, but it still doesn't address the basic reason why FO added DR: put a good armor's DT too high and you're invincible to 90% of a game's enemies, put it too low and high end enemies cut you in half. Adding DR solves this problem: you remain vulnerable to enough enemies while still preventing high end enemies from destroying you easily. I'm still not sure if PE has damage "bleeding through" the DT, but if it still has that, then I don't see how that solution to the problem is preferable to DT+DR.

That's exactly the point, i think most d&d players would come into fallout and expect there to find a non-linear development of armor where you get to have choices on what you want to use at what point. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a clear-cut "best" armor that outshines everything else because it makes sense within that gameplay environment, especially if item and enemy progression isn't retarded and you consistently have to fight non-trivial opponents that would cut through you much easier without said armor.

In most fantasy settings where 99% of your opponents aren't armed with automatic weapons that you literally cannot dodge rules definitely change and that's fine as well in that context.

I definitely do agree that DR - especially in large ammounts - is a retarded mechanic and it's the main reason i quit fallout 3 after trying to play it again after a long time, while DT makes so much sense and works a lot better in practice as well in New Vegas.

 

[Sensuki]

Sensuki

You're talking about Fallout: New Vegas mechanics, not P:E and I have not played that game, I only know stuff from it from what Josh and other people say, so I have no opinion.

Project Eternity uses straight DT, and in the first armor revision there was some minimum DT values and shit floating around, but we aren't sure if that shit is still in there we'll have to wait and see (or someone can ask Josh), it's been a while since I read about it but I have a feeling that it is gone.

 

[Shadenuat]

While large gaps in armor defensive capabilities made you almost invincible to low caliber weapons in Falllout, it did not matter, because at the point when you actually get good armor in Fallout 1, you are not fighting random bandits anymore, but powerful mutants, deathclaws and abominations. This was a good design, because unlike diluted, amorphous armor design of RPG's today where most types of armor feel same and work exclusively in numbers with a lot of zeroes in them, Fallout 1 had real progression, it had arms race. When you get your first Combat Armour and get back to places where you'd be turned into a pile of blood goo and actually start to win, you know you did things right and you feel like you actually accomplish something. You just used your technical and armament advantage to destroy backwards savages or bandits in Post Apocalyptic world. That's how it supposed to be.
Of course, being less stealthy in PWA would make sense, which, by the way, developers of Fallout Tactics accomplished quite well by giving HUGE penalties to some skills while wearing PWA.

The penalties, in fact, a lot more intense than what Josh did in FNV. I don't know what his perception of his job on armor and guns in FNV is, but in this game PWA definitely DOES NOT make you feel like a tank. People who played this game probably know that wearing armor would protect you from light arms fire, maybe low level enemies, but because of how enemies level scale, say, in DLC's, it never would feel like you are a "tank". Many people believe PWA in FNV is more of a heavy steel coffin than useful armor. So it never reaches that feeling of achievement when wearing PWA in original Fallouts.
It does not hamper stealth that much either, and you can still crouch into "stealth" and critical hit somebody easily.
Meanwhile, wearing light armor can make you do more damage - there are special perks and light armor from Josh's exclusive DLC, which has light armor which gives half DR as power armor (!) and +% crit. In "Sawyer's" Fallout, wearing a hat gives you better damage, while wearing high tech helmet with futuristic vizor gives you DR of wearing some general clothing item.
Also, JS mod for FNV greatly reduces your carrying capacity, meaning player won't be interested in carrying PWA too. And let's not forget FNV is a first person game with real time exploration, so running slower, again, makes you care for PWA less.
His design on weapons is not that fascinating either, because you rarely fight multiple strong enemies in FNV, and while builds which rely on weapons like Gatling Laser exist in FNV, it's perfectly fine to just kill everything with Anti-material rifle, in real time because player is not hampered by action points, and in VATS because you can exploit the system and perks.
Using F3 as an example of "better" design for weapons or armor is too stupid to even discuss, because damage there depends on your Repair skill more than on what you are carrying.

FNV mimics original Fallout's and their progression in many ways, bringing back DR systems and such, but it does not fix load of Fallout 3 issues, has a lot of nonsensical and exploitable stuff like magazines, and allows you to become even more of a master-of-all-skills and God than original Fallout's ever did. While Obsidian's work on piece of turd which F3 is is commendable, I do not believe it gives Josh any right to judge original Fallouts and their item progression. As any other person? Sure, he can have any opinion he wants. But if he thinks he did better job in "his" Fallout? Hell no.

The pages 15-20 of "turn-based betterwhydiscuss" I liked though, his perspective and posts about pikmen/NG/toee are interesting, but I think one can still give a few counter-arguments on his vision that systems with many rules, characters to command and numbers are not "intelligent". As a fast reply, I'd say that it's how enemy encounters are done which makes games using these systems "intelligent" or not. But those posts gave me something to think about.

 

[Sensuki]

Exactly. It is possible he is simply saying that 'metagaming' to beat an encounter isn't intelligent but actually having to think in an encounter is. What if you have to do both ?

Seems to have a big focus on tactics (and thus, micromanagement of characters) rather than strategical stuff.

 

[winterraptor]

I have an inexplicable desire to take convoluted mechanics and make them elegant. Seeing GURPS throwbacks in Fallout makes me cringe to this day. If you enjoy game systems where armor both makes you more difficult to hit and reduces damage against you, I’m very sorry, but please throw yourself into a volcano.

'GURPS throwbacks' meaning the implementation of Armor Class in addition to the reduction mechanics?

Not especially. More like an unholy alliance of DnD and GURPS. GURPS is scarcely to blame for that. In 3rd edition GURPS the PD (passive defense) of armor added to chosen, active defense rolls - as a purely passive roll it was a really shitty chance. It certainly didn't reduce the chance to hit of the opposing combatant directly like Fallout's AC.

Ultimately in 4th edition GURPS dispensed entirely with PD, however.

 

[Shadenuat]

Exactly. It is possible he is simply saying that 'metagaming' to beat an encounter isn't intelligent but actually having to think in an encounter is. What if you have to do both ?

Seems to have a big focus on tactics (and thus, micromanagement of characters) rather than strategical stuff.

It depends on what kind of metagaming player is doing. Grinding to get twice damage and hit points may be not intelligent. Preparation for the encounter by using information on enemies, choosing right party composition, weapons and armor, spells and abilities, stocking on various potions is an intelligent behavior (just like in real conflict, armament, supplies, troops quality, army composition and positioning are important). It's easy to dismiss stuff like "pfft use holy weapons on undead" as metagaming and "childish" design, but if to acquire these weapons player must still solve something and do some work, it's not metagaming, it's just more gaming. Gotta look at the bigger picture to understand if challenges like these work in the game or not. Winning by "pure thinking" a-la chess seems like naive, if idealistic, design idea for CRPG.

 

[Jedi Exile]

Adam is answering questions:

1. The Vertical Slice has been done for some time, and right now we are over two months into production. We aren't planning on releasing a playable demo of the Vertical Slice or releasing a video of the VS. I know you are dying to see the game in action. Hopefully soon

2 - 6. You will get some more info on all of this soon. I apologize that it's taking us so long. The badges, memorial stone, item, NPC, adventuring party, and portraits will be connected with the fulfillment site. I've seen it! It's looking great.

7. Mac version is going good, and we are working on the Linux version. Unity makes it easy with porting it over, which has made my life easier.

8. Justin has been pretty busy with composing new music for the game, and has been working with real live musicians (and choir) recently. I was present at a rehearsal session last week, and it's an awesome experience to hear the music played live.

9 - 10. The novella and Tim's cooking book is going to be released with the game. I don't want to step on their toes - but everything is coming along well.

Cheers!

-Adam

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64506-to-all-of-our-backers-and-fans/?p=1380565

 

[Sensuki]

No video next week then. Might be another screeny along with the fulfillment website, perhaps even a music sample.

Last time they gave two weeks notice for the environment demo, so we'd expect at least the same here.

Re: Shadenuat

There is still some of that stuff in P:E but the amount of it is severely reduced as is the impact. Armor and Damage types, Grimoire selection, companion composition, items in shared pack ... etc

 

[Shadenuat]

I'm sure there will be, cause we unintelligent peasants want an IE game for some reason, not pikmen or ninja gaiden.

 

[Sensuki]

Actually come to think of it, they might be doing a video update for the Kickstarter Anniversary.

 

[Borelli]

I get an alert that someone has posted in this thread and link brings me to page 882 ... with 885 being the end one. No wonder it's almost 900 pages of discussion. Don't you want to leave some things in the unknown so that you get surprised when you finally play the game?

From the examples he gives, you can tell that he sees a whole swath of players who either get overwhelmed at character creation or the first few minutes of gameplay.

Some character creation screens overwhelm some people while some get a hardon. It's a wonderful tool to separate wheat from the chaff.

 

[Ramireza]

"We aren't planning on releasing a playable demo of the Vertical Slice or releasing a video of the VS"

Mmh... It seems that they arent realy proud of what they have achieved in the last past month...

 

[Infinitron]

"We aren't planning on releasing a playable demo of the Vertical Slice or releasing a video of the VS"

Mmh... It seems that they arent realy proud of what they have achieved in the last past month...

More like they know how graphics whores will react to the appearance of an unfinished game. "WHY IS IT SO LINEAR" "lol those shitty animations"

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Sensuki

You're talking about Fallout: New Vegas mechanics, not P:E and I have not played that game, I only know stuff from it from what Josh and other people say, so I have no opinion.

Project Eternity uses straight DT, and in the first armor revision there was some minimum DT values and shit floating around, but we aren't sure if that shit is still in there we'll have to wait and see (or someone can ask Josh), it's been a while since I read about it but I have a feeling that it is gone.

Well, the problem we've been talking about might be less of a factor in a combination of class-based and party-based, because you'd always have a wide range of DT's in your party going from tanks to spellcasters. If you got the AI to ignore tanks with armor it couldn't bypass and go straight for squishy opponents that'd work. I just don't see that working in a type of game where you expect your tanks to protect your spellcasters by going in front and taking all the heat.

 

[Sensuki]

"We aren't planning on releasing a playable demo of the Vertical Slice or releasing a video of the VS"

Mmh... It seems that they arent realy proud of what they have achieved in the last past month...

More like they know how graphics whores will react to the appearance of an unfinished game. "WHY IS IT SO LINEAR" "lol those shitty animations"

Indeed. That and they'd rather be proud of the work they show rather than show it unfinished. Judging by the length of time they've had that Contract VFX artist job posting for it would seem that spell animations etc are all still placeholder atm. One of the things Sawyer said they wanted to do was show off flashy spells and stuff and if they don't have any yet well yeah.

 

[Roguey]

Some character creation screens overwhelm some people while some get a hardon. It's a wonderful tool to separate wheat from the chaff.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/53770-elegance-in-crpg-rulesets/page-2#entry1005811

BTW, you haven't really lived until you've watched a non-RPG person try to dive into a D&D-based game like NWN2. It's like a steel-toed boot repeatedly kicking them in the nuts and calling them an idiot. YOU WANNA PLAY THIS GAME, DUMMY? HA HA HA YEAH RIGHT.

You shouldn't have to make dozens of (largely-blind) choices before you even start playing, that's a pretty lousy way of making a game.

 

[Sensuki]

NWN2 has far worse problems than blind choices upon character creation. A lot of the problems with that is content specific as well.

I remember playing NWN1 the day it came out in AU and playing as a Ranger, then I think I multi-classed to a Fighter at like Level 7 or something thinking yeah ... 3E Rangers in computer game, very bad.

 

[Infinitron]

I think you guys might be making unwarranted assumptions about the simplicity of PE's chargen. It's never been said or hinted that PE will have a simplified chargen.

It HAS been said that it'll have a less overwhelming array of choices on level up than in D&D 3E, which probably includes chargen. I doubt it'll be as simple as AD&D though, and people seem to have been okay with Baldur's Gate, heh.