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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

hiver

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All the problems with useless skills, be it in whole game or middle or end - come from there being no specific gameplay for specific skills.

If shotguns were especially valuable against specific types of enemies - who are (for some reason) "resistant" to assault rifles - then there would be a reason to invest in them during any part of the game.
Yes, i agree, we need more zombies.
I dont remember much of my play of the first game but i seem to remember that those "zombies" were never any threat to the player, regardless what weapon was used.
It was a shallow attempt to make specific weapons more useful - but it failed as everything else failed in that series.

Shotguns would benefit from non-lethal playstyles if the right ammunition were implemented, whereas assault rifles pretty much have "kill soft thing" ammo or "kill hard thing" ammo. I think this is a slippery slope that leads to too much depth for casuals.
There you go worrying about casual mass market again and destroying your game in the process.

As for ass defect, obviously several types of enemies could have been made more resistant to other types of weapons, and more susceptible to shotguns.
Not only in damage.
Shotguns have a knockback effect at close proximity much greater then assault rifles.
And they can amputate limbs too.


But, you see, that would require making a few more models of enemies, doing animations for them, coming up with some decent Ai... etc.
Why do it when its only going to confuse the target audience who doesnt care about that shit anyway, but would much rather have awesome buttons and horrific sex scenes that dont make any sense in narrative or have effect on anything at all.
 

imweasel

Guest
I know some of you guys are starved for a Gold-Box like game, but do you seriously consider Obsidian the best fit for that role?
Josh Sawyer is the best fit for that role.

Josh said:
Players are incentivized to exploit every XP source to gain the most XP. Instead of performing actions because they are inherently enjoyable, they perform them to be as high level as they possibly can be. If the developers want to be "egalitarian", every source of XP has to be monitored, analyzed, charted, and continually balanced throughout the dev cycle. The only cases where I have seen this be successful are cases where "action" XP rewards are so infintessimal compared to quest XP that they are on the scale of a nickel vs. a $100 bill. I.e. the rewards are effectively "feel good" nods to sacred RPG conventions that are statistically irrelevant to advancement.

Player attachment to XP for kills is one of the most baffling phenomena of RPG traditions. It makes me wonder how people are able to play "non RPGs" where you don't get XP for killing things.
Fast-forward to 2013: "Josh is removing kill xp!"
Why do these quotes not fit together and why? ;)

Anyway, Josh shouldn't pussy foot around, he should just remove the other half of the reward for killing, which is of course "kill loot". Only then will he actually achieve his goal, i.e. killing everything is not beneficial at all.
 

Lhynn

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I dont remember much of my play of the first game but i seem to remember that those "zombies" were never any threat to the player, regardless what weapon was used.
It was a shallow attempt to make specific weapons more useful - but it failed as everything else failed in that series.
Game? im just saying we need more enemies with specific weaknesses and strenghts that make having a group of adventurers with a different set of talents a must have and the optimal way to play a party based game.
i am also saying that mixed enemy groups with different skills and strenghts should be present on said encounters so that no class in particular dominates any given encounter, but have each character contribute in a similar way to the victory over your foes.

These are all usually tropes of the zombie genre, ergo why i said "we need more zombies".
 
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PE is a generic fantasy RTwP cash grab. No more No Less. Stop trying to make it the perfect cRPG mechanics. This sperging is almost 900 pages ffs.

EVIL PPUBLISHERZ force us to make popamoles.

After success of WL2, proposes RTwP...simply because it will sell more.

Still a sorely under-serviced niche I agree.
 

Lancehead

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Actually his criticism of ME's skill progression is that there's no weighting. If upgrading a skill is increasingly costly, then the player may look to invest in some other skill. Now if you combine that with one of Sawyer's beliefs--that skills should be useful throughout the game (what you suggest as 'content end')--then hypothetically there shouldn't much problem.
I have yet to see a game which properly balanced weighting against usefulness. Either they get too expensive to be an efficient use of skill points at high levels, or low-mid amounts of skill points invested are useless.

But maybe Josh has figured it out.
Well, you can take Fallout's skill + perk system and expand and tweak it (in before Grunker and GURPS) so that higher level perks are more powerful and have higher requirements to buy, but don't displace the lower level perks when it comes to applicability. (Of course as hiver points out you'd need to reciprocate that within the content.) You'd also probably need to de-emphasize skills so that purely increasing skills and not investing in perks should lead to your character being very ineffective. Actually, Skyrim's system is solid there, on a framework level, but it failed in its execution.
 

Arkadin

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Same here. The only thing i was kinda meh with was the traditional fantasy vibe. If it's misleading and the setting is more original than what we assume i will be happy. But i wanted a completely alien/wacky/sureal setting so PE's leaves me sceptical.

What I love about the setting though, is that it's historically inspired. Not enough for me anyway. I'd love to see some Landsknechts and Raubritters.

I agree. I was more hyped when Sawyer initially described the setting as being late medieval/early Renaissance inspired, with early firearms and colonization (maybe I'm misremembering on this)...but almost nothing we've learned since has confirmed that this is the kind of setting being created. A shame. A 15th century Arcanum type world could be wonderful
 

Duraframe300

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Same here. The only thing i was kinda meh with was the traditional fantasy vibe. If it's misleading and the setting is more original than what we assume i will be happy. But i wanted a completely alien/wacky/sureal setting so PE's leaves me sceptical.

What I love about the setting though, is that it's historically inspired. Not enough for me anyway. I'd love to see some Landsknechts and Raubritters.

I agree. I was more hyped when Sawyer initially described the setting as being late medieval/early Renaissance inspired, with early firearms and colonization (maybe I'm misremembering on this)...but almost nothing we've learned since has confirmed that this is the kind of setting being created. A shame.

We did?

Firearms and the thematic of colonization especially have played a major factor in the updates so far. Are you misremembering the lore updates so far?
 

Arkadin

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Well that's just my perspective; The firearms were pretty underwhelming so far, but I'm open to more information. I didn't think the colonization had been covered much in the lore updates, but I'm probably wrong.
 

SophosTheWise

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Same here. The only thing i was kinda meh with was the traditional fantasy vibe. If it's misleading and the setting is more original than what we assume i will be happy. But i wanted a completely alien/wacky/sureal setting so PE's leaves me sceptical.

What I love about the setting though, is that it's historically inspired. Not enough for me anyway. I'd love to see some Landsknechts and Raubritters.

I agree. I was more hyped when Sawyer initially described the setting as being late medieval/early Renaissance inspired, with early firearms and colonization (maybe I'm misremembering on this)...but almost nothing we've learned since has confirmed that this is the kind of setting being created. A shame.

We did?

Firearms and the thematic of colonization especially have played a major factor in the updates so far. Are you misremembering the lore updates so far?

I'm actually interested in Reenactment and LARP (lol, I know, but, in my defense, European LARP, not bofferbattling). I'm usually playing some sort of Landsknecht or early-renaissance-guy. What we've seen so far may be a liiiiiittle bit renaissanc-y but really only the Vaillans and they're more late 17th century-ish
 

Roguey

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Relevant to current convo:
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/38641-taking-turn-base-action-out-of-rpgs/page-14#entry505715
Josh said:
I've been thinking about it a while, and I have some theories about why CRPGs have evolved/devolved to their current state. I think it is accurate to say that CRPGs are a lot easier now than they used to be. They are also a lot less time consuming. I remember trying to defeat the horde at Sokal Keep in the original Pool of Radiance. It took so many tries and the battle took a really long time. Many of the Ultima games were incredibly vast. The battles weren't that difficult. In fact, the game system in most Ultimas was very simple. They can't really compare to the complexity of a game system like D&D (almost any edition). But still, the Ultima games took a really long time to beat. The same with the Phantasie games, Darklands, and the Dark Sun games.

I think that CRPGs used to rely on tabletop RPGers and their spawned brothers, CRPGers, to support the entire market. Okay, some of this may be obvious, but I think it's different than it is with other "genres". The CRPG market was really derived from another. That isn't necessarily the case with other game types. Pen and paper RPGs usually require knowledge that is based on accepted conventions. Even if you switch from one system to another, many of the conventions are retained or at least referenced. For people who aren't familiar with the conventions, they are confronted with a barrier of information. They need to understand the information to succeed at the game. Veteran CRPGers can stroll in and essentially wing it because the conventions are so easy to understand.

I don't honestly think it's a matter of intelligence. Obviously a certain amount of intelligence is required to understand any game system, but I don't think we're talking about Mensa-levels here. I've met a lot of dummies who have no trouble memorizing RPG rules. They're even capable of registering accounts on message boards. A genius, confronted by the entirety of D&D rules upon the installation of ToEE, would probably have a tough time. Ultimately, D&D games (and a lot of other CRPGs) do not test intelligence as much as they test knowledge. You can blow over any of the IE games with a solid understanding of (A)D&D rules and reasonable intelligence. I don't think you could do the same if you had high intelligence and no experience with RPG/D&D rules -- not without a lot of failure along the way.

"Casual" games rely more on visible, visceral environmental challenges than invisible, statistical challenges. This is why a game like Pikmin can be very challenging on a mental level despite having very basic tools and rules. It's also why a game like Ninja Gaiden can be very challenging mentally and physically despite having fairly limited tools and rules.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I felt as satisfied at the end of a CRPG battle as I did when I beat the horseman boss in Ninja Gaiden. I had to think, move, and react constantly during the battle. It took me several very frustrating tries to get it right. I'm now going through Ninja Gaiden Black right now and the changes they made to the enemies are significant. They have almost nothing to do with statistics and almost everything to do with behavior. Behavior is what drives and distinguishes most good action game critters. In turn, that behavior drives tactical choices from the player.

Now, I'm not saying that CRPGs should become as fast-paced and brutal as Ninja Gaiden. However, I do think that less emphasis on statistics and more of an emphasis on behavior and "visceral" capability would allow casual gamers and seasoned role-players to feel similarly challenged by games.
"I've met a lot of dummies who have no trouble memorizing RPG rules. They're even capable of registering accounts on message boards." :)

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/38641-taking-turn-base-action-out-of-rpgs/page-14#entry505725
Josh said:
I use my mind more in a single game-day of Pikmin than I did in most ToEE battles. Pikmin isn't a particularly good looking game. In fact, it's very simple and cartoonish. Despite this, it was often very tricky and hard to figure out.

It was pretty rare that something in the original Fallout caused me any sort of pause where I had to really figure something out. Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap (GBA) completely stumped me multiple times. I just had to stop and try it again after a few hours. Neither game is "twitchy". Neither game has visible statistics. Neither game is particularly good looking. I think both required more intelligence than even older CRPGs demanded.

I think games like Front Mission 4 and Advance Wars have far superior sequential turn-based combat than pretty much any turn-based CRPG, and those systems fundamentally are not complex. The situations are the things that have complexity and demand deep thought.

On a very fundamental level, chess is not a complex game. It has very few rules and not very many statistics. Despite this, it is situationally so complex that its masters are unapproachable by a novice.

Roguey, do you have any other quotes of Sawyer on FO1 & 2?
I needed time to look 'em up.
Slightly relevant:
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39045-creating-your-own-pnp-rules-system/#entry528421
Josh said:
When I was designing a pen-and-paper Fallout game, the rules went through heavy revisions. I started out with something similar to the SPECIAL rules used in F3, but those proved to not be that great in a pen-and-paper environment.

In particular, combat felt very clunky and dumb. At the suggestion of Dave Maldonado, I switched the combat system over to a phase-based system like the one used in Necromunda: Move > Charge > Action. AP went away, but sequence was still very important. I reduced the overall damage range of weapons and made character skill more important. This allowed characters with thematic weapons (like revolvers) to be a little more viable. Ranged weapons, guns in particular, had their ranges severely truncated. The ranges weren't realistic, but they actually became meaningful on the hex mat.

The results were terrific. Combat went a lot quicker, people understood it more easily, and when people replayed the actual events of a battle, they seemed pretty sensible. I was very skeptical when Dave suggested it, but going phase-based helped a lot.
More relevant:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=7141
Josh said:
The first time I played Fallout, I barely took breaks to eat and sleep. As soon as I finished it, I replayed the whole game again.
...
After I beat Fallout, I read on a message board that there was an evil ending. My character had such high karma that I had to go William Munny-style and kill every living thing that walked or crawled across the wasteland just to get to -11 karma for the evil ending.
...
I have an inexplicable desire to take convoluted mechanics and make them elegant. Seeing GURPS throwbacks in Fallout makes me cringe to this day. If you enjoy game systems where armor both makes you more difficult to hit and reduces damage against you, I’m very sorry, but please throw yourself into a volcano.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/39401-armor-abstractions-in-fallouts-special-game-system/
Josh said:
The armor system resulted in making characters invincible near the end of the game unless an armor-bypassing critical hit was scored, which often resulted in massive injuries/death.
...
Fallout's firearm skills were stratified in way that encouraged players to dump all skill points into them in a certain order for the entire game. Basically, small guns was designed to obsolete at a certain point, then big guns. The same didn't apply to characters who focused on speech or science -- or unarmed combat, for that matter.
...
I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

I would expect the leather and combat armors to protect me less, but to give few penalties to my stealth abilities or to my movement-oriented stats.

If we think of an attacker's skill check as determining their ability to hit a target of a certain size moving at a certain speed at a certain range, the properties of the target certainly factor into that calculation. I just don't think that the durability of the armor should have any positive effect on it.

But in Fallout, this isn't the case. Heavier armor both increases AC and increases damage reduction. It also has no penalty on stealth skills. On top of this, the DR/DT system combines to result in virtual invincibility in the late game unless the PC suffers the effects of a rare critical. To make matters worse, the gulf of difference between armor types is huge. If you fight Enclave troops in the best combat armor you can find, you will take massive damage compared to those wearing APA. Because of how good the endgame armor is, all of the enemy weapons have to be jacked up in power more and more just to make a little dent in the PC. Against all other armor types, it's Bedtime for Bonzo.

In my opinion (duh), the changes I wanted to make in F3 would have resulted in different character types having more options in the late game. Power armor variants were for people who wanted to be tanks. They could take a great deal of punishment, but they were pretty easy to see/hear coming and to hit. People in combat armor variants retained most of their movement/stealth capabilities, but couldn't quite take the heavy hits in extended combat.
...
I think your boundary between "working fine" and "broken" is a lot different than mine. Yes, the armor system does actually protect characters from damage, so I guess in that respect, it does function. With regards to supporting player choice, player intuition, and general game balance, I think it fails.

Ferret and I put a healthy amount of effort into re-working the armor system for F3. It seemed to hold up pretty well in our lil' demo. That was with no DR and no AC bonuses from armor.
...
Somewhat, but the system had the premise that tougher armor = higher AC. And heavier armors had almost no drawbacks (other than weight) when compared to lighter armors. No armor had stealth or AG penalties. Those seem more like systemic problems than data problems.

DR is also something that I considered to be a systemic problem. To begin with, the idea behind the math doesn't seem sensible to me. Let's say a piece of armor has 30% DR and 0 DT vs. explosions. A grenade goes off next to someone wearing that armor. The attack does 3 points of damage. 30% of 3 is less than 1, so the target takes full damage. Another grenade goes off, doing 100 damage. The armor protects the target for 30 points of damage. The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

My expectation would be that armor would ablate damage damage up to a certain point with the rest being taken by the person in the armor. E.g. I fire increasingly large bullets into a barrier. The first few are low calibre and they bounce off. The next few are higher calibre and they penetrate deeper as the calibre rises. When the bullet finally penetrates the barrier, the bullet retains whatever energy that remained after breaching the barrier. Ballistics is certainly more complex than this, but that's the general idea. There's a threshold of protection that body armor affords. Once an applied force has overcome that barrier, the body takes the rest. That's effectively what DT is.

In Fallout, the better suits of armor have both high DT and DR, and they combine to make even horrible wounds virtually insignificant. The PCs' hit points rise, their DRs rise, and their DTs rise. By the end of the game, they're harder to kill than a lot of D&D characters. A lot of that has to do with the armor.

Removing DR and revamping the stats for weapons and armor made a big difference in F3. High-calibre weapons like military-grade sniper and anti-materiel rifles were awesome against heavily armored targets. They weren't so great against groups. Low-calibre, rapid-fire weapons were great against lightly armored groups. The results seemed pretty sensible, but armored characters still gained great benefits.
...
In the pen-and-paper game I ran when I was at Midway, thrown weapons used the athletics skill. Athletics broadly covered things like swimming, climbing, jumping, and throwing. It seemed to work pretty well. Throwing always seemed like such an overly specialized skill when compared with something like "science".
...
Contrary to what Hades wrote, no one ever said that grenades were melee weapons. Throwing grenades was going to be checked against the melee skill in F3 because the throwing skill in Fallout 1 & 2 was so rarely used that it was practically worthless. The other alternative would have been to put potent throwing weapons everywhere, which made even less sense.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/38641-taking-turn-base-action-out-of-rpgs/page-16#entry505826
Josh said:
To be blunt, Fallout and Planescape had really crappy statistical systems. They were really easy to abuse as long as you figured out the very basic patterns to how things worked. If you stage up from tagged Small Guns to tagged Energy Weapons, make called eye shots and always wear the heaviest armor possible, you will probably kill most things in Fallout. By the end of the game, you will probably only die from critical hits or gross negligence of your character's health. Planescape was just easy to min-max if you wanted to. Tactics wasn't really at the heart of its gameplay. Fallout had interesting combat because of the setting, the sounds, and the visual feedback. Would Fallout's combat have been as interesting if a close burst to a raider with a submachine gun didn't make that distinctive sound and show the dance of death? I don't think so, to be honest.

On the other hand, Fallout allowed you to be a really horrible monster. It didn't quasi-allow it like Baldur's Gate did, where omniscient Flaming Fist dumbos would constantly stream in to annihilate you. It also didn't force you to be horrible. You could be a great guy (or gal), a hero (or heroine). You could really change things around you. That's what was great about Fallout. It certainly wasn't a tactical brainbuster... not in my opinion, anyway.

Similarly, Planescape allowed you to do so many things in so many ways. Yes, it had a lot of text, but it wasn't about reading as much as it was about choosing, about making a choice and seeing that impact. And the reactions to that seemed intimate and important in a way that simulator games don't really capture.
Tons of reading right there.
 
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I needed time to look 'em up.

Thanks!

If you enjoy game systems where armor both makes you more difficult to hit and reduces damage against you, I’m very sorry, but please throw yourself into a volcano.

I don't think anyone is arguing that AC isn't an abstraction, but I would argue that Fallout/SPECIAL's system of abstracting armor is unintuitive and forces characters to always adopt the heaviest armor unless they want to intentionally handicap themselves.

If I were coming to Fallout for the first time, my expectation would be that metal, Tesla, and power armor greatly increase protection but reduce my stealth abilities and my overall mobility. They're bulky, heavy suits of armor. I understand that PA is motorized, but I've always believed that the actuators in PA are there simply to give the person the great strength required to wear it, not to enhance movement speed and grace above and beyond their normal capabilities.

:salute:

DR is also something that I considered to be a systemic problem. To begin with, the idea behind the math doesn't seem sensible to me. Let's say a piece of armor has 30% DR and 0 DT vs. explosions. A grenade goes off next to someone wearing that armor. The attack does 3 points of damage. 30% of 3 is less than 1, so the target takes full damage. Another grenade goes off, doing 100 damage. The armor protects the target for 30 points of damage. The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

My expectation would be that armor would ablate damage damage up to a certain point with the rest being taken by the person in the armor. E.g. I fire increasingly large bullets into a barrier. The first few are low calibre and they bounce off. The next few are higher calibre and they penetrate deeper as the calibre rises. When the bullet finally penetrates the barrier, the bullet retains whatever energy that remained after breaching the barrier. Ballistics is certainly more complex than this, but that's the general idea. There's a threshold of protection that body armor affords. Once an applied force has overcome that barrier, the body takes the rest. That's effectively what DT is.

In Fallout, the better suits of armor have both high DT and DR, and they combine to make even horrible wounds virtually insignificant. The PCs' hit points rise, their DRs rise, and their DTs rise. By the end of the game, they're harder to kill than a lot of D&D characters. A lot of that has to do with the armor.

I get his point, but it still doesn't address the basic reason why FO added DR: put a good armor's DT too high and you're invincible to 90% of a game's enemies, put it too low and high end enemies cut you in half. Adding DR solves this problem: you remain vulnerable to enough enemies while still preventing high end enemies from destroying you easily. I'm still not sure if PE has damage "bleeding through" the DT, but if it still has that, then I don't see how that solution to the problem is preferable to DT+DR.
 

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I'm still not sure if PE has damage "bleeding through" the DT, but if it still has that, then I don't see how that solution to the problem is preferable to DT+DR.

The "bleed through" is a constant value, so it avoids the situation he described:

The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?
 
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The "bleed through" is a constant value, so it avoids the situation he described:

The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

Okay, but explain to me again how the bleedthrough would work, because if it's always the same, then "a shiv does the same amount of damage to leather armor as to full plate mail" (namely always just the bleed through) sounds even weirder.
 

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The "bleed through" is a constant value, so it avoids the situation he described:

The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

Okay, but explain to me again how the bleedthrough would work, because if it's always the same, then "a shiv does the same amount of damage to leather armor as to full plate mail" (namely always just the bleed through) sounds even weirder.

Hmm well, you'd have to ask Josh why he finds "more damage --> more protection" objectionable. I suspect it's not necessarily due to realism concerns, so that's not relevant. Roguey?
 

Roguey

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The "bleed through" is a constant value, so it avoids the situation he described:

The more damage done to the target, the better the armor protects. Huh?

Okay, but explain to me again how the bleedthrough would work, because if it's always the same, then "a shiv does the same amount of damage to leather armor as to full plate mail" (namely always just the bleed through) sounds even weirder.

Hmm well, you'd have to ask Josh why he finds "more damage --> more protection" objectionable. I suspect it's not necessarily due to realism concerns, so that's not relevant. Roguey?
As he said, he hates the screwy math. It's also more difficult to balance. More stuff about it:

http://spring.me/JESawyer/q/232499837243755993
DR has limited scalability (100 points -- or in the case of F3, 85 points). It produces odd effects like shielding you from ten bullets' worth of damage from an explosion but from literally no damage from a low-damage bullet.

Were DR to be used with DT (which some modders have done), I think it should be used in low values (e.g. never higher than 25%, max) as a way to help reduce damage from explosions and other ultra-high DAM attacks while keeping DT the dominant value for reducing DAM on standard attacks.

I zeroed out DR values on armor because we were switching systems entirely and I wanted to limit the number of balancing factors in armor development. For modders, I would suggest establishing a rule for how DR scales with DT and follow that so you're still ultimately balancing one level of protective power. E.g. 1 point of DR for 1 point of DT, or 1.5 points of DR for each point of DT over 5.

YCS:
Josh said:
very few of the enemies in F:NV were bullet sponges unless you were under-leveled or under-geared for what you were fighting. the reason F:NV switched to a DT system from F3's DR system was to promote selecting different weapons based on the relative armor and health of the targets. if you were fighting something in the target level/gear range, there was almost always a weapon choice that would quickly kill a target.
Josh said:
It takes a good amount of system knowledge but you can kill most enemies in Fallout 3 pretty quickly.
sure, but it doesn't really matter what weapon you're using (as long as the overall damage is high) because DR is a percentile reduction on incoming attacks. DR effectively always inflates health. DT allows creatures to have a high base resistance and relatively low health. against high-frequency attacks, they're still tough, but a weapon that does high damage with a low RoF will take them out quickly. creatures like cazadores have moderate health and no DT specifically to encourage the use of high RoF weapons like SMGs.
 
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But the question wasn't whether or not DR produces screwy math, just whether it results in less screwy math than other solutions to DT-related invulnerability like "bleeding through".
 

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Why do you assume "DT invulnerability"? Balance your damn game properly and there's no invulnerability.
 
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I meant either effective invulnerability or weakness, in the way I said before: put a good armor's DT too high and you're invincible to 90% of a game's enemies, put it too low and high end enemies cut you in half. Adding DR solves this problem: you remain vulnerable to enough enemies while still preventing high end enemies from destroying you easily. I'm still not sure if PE has damage "bleeding through" the DT, but if it still has that, then I don't see how that solution to the problem is preferable to DT+DR.

But if this isn't a problem according to you then you don't need bleed throughs either.
 

Roguey

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Yeah, it still has minimum damage. It's still more predictable than DR with its wonky math.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/56001-fallout-new-vegas/page-14#entry1064794
Josh said:
I'm honestly not sure what is the design reason for this.
Because it makes the game boring against certain enemy types once you get heavy enough armor. With MinDam set to 0.0, eventually you can literally just walk around a horde of guys pounding you with low-end weapons and never take any damage. It doesn't really produce good long-term game play. Similarly, I don't think it produced good results in F1 and F2, where near the end game people would go round after round taking 0 damage until an armor-bypassing triple damage critical forced a reload.

0.2 MinDam feels pretty good to me. When a weapon's hitting MinDam, that's the equivalent of 80% DR, which is nothing to sneeze at. If some dude pops out with an SMG and starts blasting you in good armor, chances are pretty good that his (for example's sake only) 9 DAM is going to be reduced to 1.8 DAM. A weapon that maybe did 90 (for example's sake only) DPS now does 18. Sure, it doesn't make you invulnerable, but that's a huge reduction.

If you disagree and are playing on the PC, you are certainly free to tune MinDam, armor DT, or even armor DR if you are absolutely in love with the old F1/F2 armor systems.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
put a good armor's DT too high

Then don't!

put it too low

Then don't!

But if this isn't a problem according to you then you don't need bleed throughs either.

Bleedthroughs are good because taking zero damage from enemy hits (which would always happen occasionally even with well-balanced DT because the damage roll is random, remember?) is undesirable.
 
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Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I'm curious how Sawyer is going to "solve" skills not being worth investing in if you've avoided them for 1/2 the game.

How you do resolve either high level of points not being worth it, or low-medium level of points not giving enough of an advantage late game?

From what we know so far, you cannot max two skills in Project Eternity, you can only max one, or have two high skills.

Every skill also grants a passive combat bonus. That is the 'fix' to low skills. The reason for it is so that every skill helps a little in combat like Stealth does, because apparently 2 points in Stealth allows you to get a little bit closer to enemies before they see you, which is a combat bonus.

There are no combat skills. There are talents. Weapon specializations will be grouped.

A lot of design from F:NV carrying across here.
 
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Do explain this magical DT value that avoids all this, Infinitron. The problem with open world games is that you have enemies with widely varying damage outputs, which makes finding the perfect DT values for each set of armor impossible; every relatively high DT will always potentially be "too high" depending on the setting and vice versa. Which is why you need DR in some way, either the FO way or the "bleed through" way.

Yeah, it still has minimum damage. It's still more predictable than DR with its wonky math.

Except that it's still DR, so in effect the wonky math aspect of armor delivering more protection the higher the damage is still applies. But now it only does so as long as it stays under the DT rather than when it goes over it, which might be something of an improvement.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Do explain this magical DT value that avoids all this, Infinitron. The problem with open world games is that you have enemies with widely varying damage outputs, which makes finding the perfect DT values for each set of armor impossible; every relatively high DT will always potentially be "too high" depending on the setting and vice versa.

First of all, I don't necessarily agree with that. If the armor improvement curve over the course of the game is moderate enough, that may not happen. In analogy, in Baldur's Gate 1, a mundane non-magical suit of full plate was useful until the end of the game.

Second of all, so what? So you're overlevelled for an area. You're going to kick that area's ass regardless. Your attack rolls are higher, you HP is higher, you're better in every way. If you want a challenge, go elsewhere.

Let me explain - the purpose of the bleedthroughs is not to somehow balance against the effect of your DT growing too high. The bleedthroughs exist in order to smooth out the damage curve over the course of a battle against an evenly matched enemy, because the only way to get 0 damage should be dodging the enemy's attack, not absorbing it.

The bleedthrough damage is not a major design element, it's just a technical thing. It is not analogous to DR.
 

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