Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

I like 'spreadsheet' convenience (especially with different selectable orderings, aka column sorting and filtering by category) but also like just plain inventory items for the aesthetics.
Seeing the stats difference from equipped stuff is essential as a substitute for the spreadsheet though, if they go that way.

I disagree. What is wrong with RPG itemization today is that they can actually compare items meaningfully because the items are linear in progression. How do you do meaningful stat-comparisons between Celestial Fury and The Wave? Or most other two items from BG2, even within the same class? You can't. Because items are vastly different in functionality, not just two different stat blocks.

Even if you're just talking about small windows opening to get an easy overview of the item, that's not necessarily a good thing, because that means item mechanic descriptions will fit on those, which many items from BG2 wouldn't, I think.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Aren't you the guy who criticized Wasteland 2's combat by referring to GURPS a while ago? Criticizing crpg design purely on the basis of "empirical examples" of other crpg's is just conservative circle jerking.

No, I used GURPS to make a point, I didn't say "lol, Wasteland 2 sucks because it's not GURPS!" That would be stupid.

Not that your criticism is at all relevant to the point I was making.

You used GURPS as an example of a system with a wide variety of attack options, which BN dismissed as being purely hypothetical because no crpg has ever resembled that type of system. It's just a really easy copout.

 

[SCO]

I like 'spreadsheet' convenience (especially with different selectable orderings, aka column sorting and filtering by category) but also like just plain inventory items for the aesthetics.
Seeing the stats difference from equipped stuff is essential as a substitute for the spreadsheet though, if they go that way.

I disagree. What is wrong with RPG itemization today is that they can actually compare items meaningfully because the items are linear in progression. How do you do meaningful stat-comparisons between Celestial Fury and The Wave? Or most other two items from BG2, even within the same class? You can't. Because items are vastly different in functionality, not just two different stat blocks.

Even if you're just talking about small windows opening to get an easy overview of the item, that's not necessarily a good thing, because that means item mechanic descriptions will fit on those, which many items from BG2 wouldn't, I think.

You do 'meaningful comparison' on the primary statistics you knob. You know, THAC0, damage, enchantment, armor class. And a minus or plus line for unique effects too. Have you ever played TOME4?

See that popup?

edit: is this some kind of DM obscurantism thing? Losing that vague description that mechanically translates to 'casts spell on hit %10 of time' or 'increases ATR' to create some kind of bullshit brain exercise? Well, the vague description can stay, on the right click popup ala BG2. I love them on Betrayal at Krondor for instance. It's not exclusive.

 

[Excidium]

Arguments based on hypotheticals are better now?

Another RPG Codex poster who can solve RPGs based on their own imaginations but with no empirical examples. The arrogance is staggering. You're like the J. E. Sawyer of inventories.

Hyperbole much? He wasn't talking about "solving RPGs" he was talking about very specific and narrow problem. His solution is really clear from his explanation, but I guess that whenever you have to solve some problem the only acceptable solution is to point out to how someone else did it and say exactly like that.

Displaying list of objects in GUIs is done the exact same way he described it for decades. Almost every file manager, ftp client, torrent client, music player, video player etc is displaying list of objects in the way he described it.

In that case SkyUI would be the exact thing you guys would be clamoring for, which would be odd since: 1) SkyUI is horrible (though a vast improvement on its predecessor) and 2) Excidium says he is not clamoring for SkyUI.

And that's because SkyUI does well in terms of presentation but is still not a good example because it's built on a fundamentally flawed core that wasn't designed to be used with a mouse.

 

[Liston]

In that case SkyUI would be the exact thing you guys would be clamoring for, which would be odd since: 1) SkyUI is horrible (though a vast improvement on its predecessor) and 2) Excidium says he is not clamoring for SkyUI.

Excel list inventories have been done before, and they are avoided when possible because readability and easy overview is pretty bad. The closest comparison is wanting RPGs to look more like Tycoon games or SIMS (they're pretty much all structured in excel-layouts) and I can't imagine a less aesthetically pleasing or obnoxius inventory layout.

But then, the argument for excel lists sounds more and more like a completely functionalist one that ignores any other aspect of UI design, so there's that.

First of all it's really different from excel but I guess that you know that already and are just deliberately being dishonest. Numerous applications use same method of diplaying lists of much more complicated objects whose attributes change in real time without any readability problems, i fail to see what makes rpg inventories so different.

And yes funcionality is the most important thing in UI design.

 

[Roguey]

Give me one example of a list inventory that got it right

Windows Explorer

 

[FeelTheRads]

Give me one example of a list inventory that got it right

Windows Explorer

lol

 

[Arkeus]

The problem with lists is that they make the items BE a bunch of statistics. While that's what they are arguably, using a grid inventory with unique art for each item and unique art for the item in-game means that there is some much bigger investment for the play regarding that item.

List showing all the stats is 'neat', but after a while it makes getting new weapons/armor just painfully boring. The syndrome of "I get +1 attack and they get +1 defense, and nothing ever changes".

 

[Infinitron]

Give me one example of a list inventory that got it right

Windows Explorer

You know, this is a more profound statement than you think.

Ask yourself, when do you use the Icon/Thumbnail view in Windows Explorer and when do you use the List/Details view? It depends on the contents of the specific directories - not just the file types but also the total number of files.

I think the inventory system in many respects is less important than the sorts of items it is intended to hold. Or in other words, once again content trumps systems.

 

[Grunker]

Aren't you the guy who criticized Wasteland 2's combat by referring to GURPS a while ago? Criticizing crpg design purely on the basis of "empirical examples" of other crpg's is just conservative circle jerking.

No, I used GURPS to make a point, I didn't say "lol, Wasteland 2 sucks because it's not GURPS!" That would be stupid.

Not that your criticism is at all relevant to the point I was making.

You used GURPS as an example of a system with a wide variety of attack options, which BN dismissed as being purely hypothetical because no crpg has ever resembled that type of system. It's just a really easy copout.

Tsk tsk. There are many RPGs with much more complex combat systems than a simple variety of attack options. Like fucking ToEE or Knights of the Chalice is more complex. There was no cop-out, but then it seems you didn't understand the basics of the argument. The basics was this: WL2's system as presented so far is very simplistic. I don't like simplistic combat systems. When pressed for a system that was less simplistic, I mentioned a variety of attack options. Mentioning ToEE would be a sucky comparison, and mentioning AoD (which actually has a variety of attack options - so much for you "IT'S NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE") would also be unfitting since I have expressed myself very critically about AoD's combat for other reasons.

I like 'spreadsheet' convenience (especially with different selectable orderings, aka column sorting and filtering by category) but also like just plain inventory items for the aesthetics.
Seeing the stats difference from equipped stuff is essential as a substitute for the spreadsheet though, if they go that way.

I disagree. What is wrong with RPG itemization today is that they can actually compare items meaningfully because the items are linear in progression. How do you do meaningful stat-comparisons between Celestial Fury and The Wave? Or most other two items from BG2, even within the same class? You can't. Because items are vastly different in functionality, not just two different stat blocks.

Even if you're just talking about small windows opening to get an easy overview of the item, that's not necessarily a good thing, because that means item mechanic descriptions will fit on those, which many items from BG2 wouldn't, I think.

You do 'meaningful comparison' on the primary statistics you knob. You know, THAC0, damage, enchantment, armor class. And a minus or plus line for unique effects. Have you ever played TOME4?

See that popup?

edit: is this some kind of DM obscurantism thing? Losing that vague description that mechanically translates to 'casts spell on hit %10 of time' or 'increases ATR' to create some kind of bullshit brain exercise?

You misunderstood. What's the point of comparing THAC0 and damage if those stats are pretty insignificant next to the other properties of an item? Or at least only a part of the story, and not enough to make you switch? And no, it has nothing to do with a "brain exercise", it has something to do with the fact that weapons with linear progression, i.e. a sort of MMO-progression where the next weapon you find is STRICTLY better than your last one, is not interesting itemization. Baldur's Gate 2 offers you CHOICE in itemization because new weapons aren't always just strictly better upgrades. In such a system, simple stat-comparison becomes less useful.

Arguments based on hypotheticals are better now?

Another RPG Codex poster who can solve RPGs based on their own imaginations but with no empirical examples. The arrogance is staggering. You're like the J. E. Sawyer of inventories.

Hyperbole much? He wasn't talking about "solving RPGs" he was talking about very specific and narrow problem. His solution is really clear from his explanation, but I guess that whenever you have to solve some problem the only acceptable solution is to point out to how someone else did it and say exactly like that.

Displaying list of objects in GUIs is done the exact same way he described it for decades. Almost every file manager, ftp client, torrent client, music player, video player etc is displaying list of objects in the way he described it.

In that case SkyUI would be the exact thing you guys would be clamoring for, which would be odd since: 1) SkyUI is horrible (though a vast improvement on its predecessor) and 2) Excidium says he is not clamoring for SkyUI.

And that's because SkyUI does well in terms of presentation but is still not a good example because it's built on a fundamentally flawed core that wasn't designed to be used with a mouse.

What parts of SkyUI would be removed in your perfect system? Because the reason SkyUI sucks is small text, poor aesthetics and no way to easily distinguish things at a glance (i.e. no icons).

In that case SkyUI would be the exact thing you guys would be clamoring for, which would be odd since: 1) SkyUI is horrible (though a vast improvement on its predecessor) and 2) Excidium says he is not clamoring for SkyUI.

Excel list inventories have been done before, and they are avoided when possible because readability and easy overview is pretty bad. The closest comparison is wanting RPGs to look more like Tycoon games or SIMS (they're pretty much all structured in excel-layouts) and I can't imagine a less aesthetically pleasing or obnoxius inventory layout.

But then, the argument for excel lists sounds more and more like a completely functionalist one that ignores any other aspect of UI design, so there's that.

First of all it's really different from excel but I guess that you know that already and are just deliberately being dishonest.

Oh cry me a river.

I was using the terminology presented in the thread. It wasn't long before you started judging my intentions, huh?

Numerous applications use same method of diplaying lists of much more complicated objects whose attributes change in real time without any readability problems, i fail to see what makes rpg inventories so different.

And yes funcionality is the most important thing in UI design.

Have I said it wasn't? No, I don't believe I have. I believe I said it wasn't the only important part. But I guess that you know that already and are just deliberately being dishonest. Your lists offer only functionality, and as is argued here, it is not a strict Best Contender. Even if it was, it fails at everything else. It is a necessary evil in games with an over-abundance of items only.

 

[Grunker]

Give me one example of a list inventory that got it right

Windows Explorer

You know, this is a more profound statement than you think.

Ask yourself, when do you use the Icon/Thumbnail view in Windows Explorer and when do you use the List/Details view? It depends on the contents of the specific directories - not just the file types but also the total number of files.

I think the inventory system in many respects is less important than the sorts of items it is intended to hold. Or in other words, once again content trumps systems.

Eh, yes? I would have thought this was a pretty obvious truth. You'd be an idiot to argue for a grid inventory in an Elder Scrolls game, for example. Imagine how many useless miniature icons you would have to scroll through. Like I said, lists are a necessary evil there.

But then a litmus-test for a bad RPG is one that has you hauling around so much useless junk that it must succumb to the shittyness of a list-inventory to compensate

Spoiler

disclaimer: obviously a subjective opinion, hence the troll

The truth isn't that content trumps systems (this is a fallacy of yours we'll have to discuss someday), but that certain sub-par systems can be necessary because of content. Content might be king as you so eloquently put it, but only in the sense that it can force a decision to use lesser systems. Not in the sense that it makes the strength of a system vary to a degree where shitty systems become great and vice versa.

 

[felipepepe]

What is wrong with RPG itemization today is that they can actually compare items meaningfully because the items are linear in progression. How do you do meaningful stat-comparisons between Celestial Fury and The Wave? Or most other two items from BG2, even within the same class? You can't. Because items are vastly different in functionality, not just two different stat blocks.

^THIS.

 

[Roguey]

Celestial Fury is +3 with a few additions, The Wave is +4 with a few additions. There, that was easy.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The problem with lists is that they make the items BE a bunch of statistics. While that's what they are arguably, using a grid inventory with unique art for each item and unique art for the item in-game means that there is some much bigger investment for the play regarding that item.

List showing all the stats is 'neat', but after a while it makes getting new weapons/armor just painfully boring. The syndrome of "I get +1 attack and they get +1 defense, and nothing ever changes".

The bigger problem is that it's not easier to find stuff at a glance, no matter what people with no clue about design (like Excidium) tell you. Scrolling through some shitty list to find that Sword Of Awesomeness, when you have about 2 dozen other items with names starting with "sword" and all have the same shitty symbol is what shitty UI means.

 

[SCO]

[

You misunderstood. What's the point of comparing THAC0 and damage if those stats are pretty insignificant next to the other properties of an item? Or at least only a part of the story, and not enough to make you switch? And no, it has nothing to do with a "brain exercise", it has something to do with the fact that weapons with linear progression, i.e. a sort of MMO-progression where the next weapon you find is STRICTLY better than your last one, is not interesting itemization. Baldur's Gate 2 offers you CHOICE in itemization because new weapons aren't always just strictly better upgrades. In such a system, simple stat-comparison becomes less useful.

Grunker, do you understand computers? That 'uniqueness' is very very very likely to be be not a 'unique effect' at all, but a conditional, probabilistic, composite effect or a combination of these, because at the end of the day, programmers tend not to create functions for piece of equipment, because, guess what, they're not designers. This means that the effect can mostly always be described as affecting basic stats (less so for probabilistic and conditional but wahtever).

And if it's really unique, who gives a shit? Name the unique effect 'rage of the weirdwood' or something and put a +rage of the weirdwood when you're about to equip it and a -rage of the weirdwood when you're about to remove it. Leave the description as poetic and as long as you fucking want. Actually, such unique effects would be a pretty good hint to keep the fucking weapon, just like you kept +3 weapons in BG bags of holding (don't lie).

 

[Grunker]

Celestial Fury is +3 with a few additions, The Wave is +4 with a few additions. There, that was easy.

Celestial Fury is arguably the better weapon. It's only one-handed, it stuns with a fairly good chance (through most immunities even). It has a 5% chance of 20 damage vs. The Wave's 15% for 15. It has two relevant abilities against The Wave's which is only good against specific, rare and easy to deal with enemy types. I used Celestial Fury as my example because it's one of the best weapons in BG2 even though it has no Cespenar-upgrade and is only +3.

You cannot boil this discussion down to a small pop-up box comparison. Even if you could, the technical aspect of my argument still stands: good itemization forces you to make a choice between two arguably good options. Bad itemization makes you solve a problem ("which item is the strictly better one?").

Even your precious Sawyer seems to agree here, at least as far as base item types go.

[

You misunderstood. What's the point of comparing THAC0 and damage if those stats are pretty insignificant next to the other properties of an item? Or at least only a part of the story, and not enough to make you switch? And no, it has nothing to do with a "brain exercise", it has something to do with the fact that weapons with linear progression, i.e. a sort of MMO-progression where the next weapon you find is STRICTLY better than your last one, is not interesting itemization. Baldur's Gate 2 offers you CHOICE in itemization because new weapons aren't always just strictly better upgrades. In such a system, simple stat-comparison becomes less useful.

Grunker, do you understand computers? That 'uniqueness' is very very very likely to be be not a 'unique effect' at all, but a conditional, probabilistic, composite effect or a combination of these, because at the end of the day, programmers tend not to create functions for piece of equipment, because, guess what, they're not designers. This means that the effect can mostly always be described as affecting basic stats (less so for probabilistic and conditional but wahtever).

And if it's really unique, who gives a shit? Name the unique effect 'rage of the weirdwood' or something and put a +rage of the weirdwood when you're about to equip it and a -rage of the weirdwood when you're about to remove it. Leave the description as poetic and as long as you fucking want.

See the above. What's the point of a stat comparison if every weapon has unique abilities that I need to read (as, in fact, most BG2 weapons do)?

 

[SophosTheWise]

Give me one example of a list inventory that got it right

Windows Explorer

 

[Roguey]

Celestial Fury is +3 with a few additions, The Wave is +4 with a few additions. There, that was easy.

Celestial Fury is arguably the better weapon. It's only one-handed, it stuns with a fairly good chance (through most immunities even). It has a 5% chance of 20 damage vs. The Wave's 15% for 15. It has two relevant abilities against The Wave's which is only good against specific, rare and easy to deal with enemy types.

You cannot boil this discussion down to a small pop-up box comparison. Even if you could, the technical aspect of my argument still stands: good itemization forces you to make a choice between two arguably good options. Bad itemization makes you solve a problem ("which item is the strictly better one?").

Even your precious Sawyer seems to agree here, at least as far as base item types go.

Pop-up boxes are good though, means I don't have to right-click everything to see what the deal is.

 

[Excidium]

In that case SkyUI would be the exact thing you guys would be clamoring for, which would be odd since: 1) SkyUI is horrible (though a vast improvement on its predecessor) and 2) Excidium says he is not clamoring for SkyUI.
And that's because SkyUI does well in terms of presentation but is still not a good example because it's built on a fundamentally flawed core that wasn't designed to be used with a mouse.

What parts of SkyUI would be removed in your perfect system? Because the reason SkyUI sucks is small text, poor aesthetics and no way to easily distinguish things at a glance (i.e. no icons).

Context menus, drag and drop. Would make it much better, specially to manage for multiple characters.

 

[Grunker]

Celestial Fury is +3 with a few additions, The Wave is +4 with a few additions. There, that was easy.

Celestial Fury is arguably the better weapon. It's only one-handed, it stuns with a fairly good chance (through most immunities even). It has a 5% chance of 20 damage vs. The Wave's 15% for 15. It has two relevant abilities against The Wave's which is only good against specific, rare and easy to deal with enemy types.

You cannot boil this discussion down to a small pop-up box comparison. Even if you could, the technical aspect of my argument still stands: good itemization forces you to make a choice between two arguably good options. Bad itemization makes you solve a problem ("which item is the strictly better one?").

Even your precious Sawyer seems to agree here, at least as far as base item types go.

Pop-up boxes are good though, means I don't have to right-click everything to see what the deal is.

You do if itemization isn't shit. That's what I'm saying. If items can be compared with small pop-up boxes and without actually reading the details, then itemization is bad.

 

[SCO]

BECAUSE YOU READ A DESCRIPTION ONCE AND YOU FUCKING COMPARE EQUIPMENT ALL THE TIME ARRRRSSRRRRRRGHHHHGGHGH

 

[Grunker]

BECAUSE YOU READ A DESCRIPTION ONCE AND YOU FUCKING COMPARE EQUIPMENT ALL THE TIME ARRRRSSRRRRRRGHHHHGGHGH

The only reason to compare items is if you consider substituting one item with another. If you consider that, you need to read the item details (if they are extensive, which they should be).

 

[SCO]

Well, you obviously aren't open to be convinced for any reason.
'item description were good enough for BG and so are good enough for me' <-- this is you.

 

[hiver]

The argument that a "list" is better because it can show (not that it does every time) information and is therefore better then the grid is nonsense.
The grid itself is only good because you see many, many items all together at once - and you see the actual items - not a fucking text list.


Thats what a fucking inventory should show. It should show you your items - not a fucking textual list of those items.
And thats the actual point here. Not just having a "grid" or showing information.
You know why "showing the information" is not a feature or advantage unique to a fucking list?

BECAUSE - all that information can be shown on the icon-picture of actual items or in additional small window where all details can be presented when you click on the item you want to inspect.
Just like in Fallout, just like in AoD, you fucking mass marketing ass-kissing, list loving apologetic scum.

And that is a singular unique advantage of the so called "grid" system, - a system that shows you your fucking items instead of a text list - YOU DONT NEED TO CLICK EVERY FUCKING ITEM BECAUSE YOU INSTANTLY SEE THE ONE YOU WANT.
Those items can be shown in a grid, or a seemingly open endless space, or ordered in a scrollable single line like they were in Fallout. (easily extended to more lines or space).
Grid is not the point itself you fucknads.

RIDDLE ME THIS:

What the holy fuck is better and why?

Gold badge ....... - or -

Crimson Eye ...... - or -

Dimension Glove ..... - or -

Power Nullifier ...... - or -

Which of these helps strengthen the setting? Which of these strengthens the theme, the style, the art, the atmosphere? Which is therefore more immersive?
Which is more impressive and enjoyable? Which one if more beautiful?
Which one makes you feel you actually got/found/stolen something valuable? Something palpable? Something you could hold with your hands?




Which inventory makes you feel like you are handling and inspecting actual ITEMS?

This:

and this:

or a fucking text list?

 

[SCO]

Actually, funny thing Grunker, you know what is the most common bug on BG mods? : Item descriptions at the end of the textual description not matching the actual item descriptions because the stat modifiers from the baseline (without the comparison to equipped stuff) don't match the actual stats of the item

a problem that would be solved on a system like this because that section would read the actual item value