Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

Well, you obviously aren't open to be convinced for any reason.
'item description were good enough for BG and so are good enough for me' <-- this is you.

sigh

Item descriptions in BG sucked. They were poorly documented, equivocal and often directly misleading. They also tended to display information which simply wasn't true, or at least didn't strictly function as they were written. Mainly horrible documentation (a main flaw with most RPGs, and fortunately one which Sawyer aims to kill), but the problem was deeper than that in BG, because sometimes the information was there, it was simply equivocal.

I am not speaking against pop-up comparisons, I am saying that they are of limited use in a game with good itemization.

But then, you obviously aren't open to be convinced for any reason.

 

[SCO]

Man, good itemization appears to force one to have bad usability.

'Thou must memorize the long lore description before flipping a coin and deciding what that long lore description actually means (or having to equip and subtract on your head to figure it out). That is the law of the land'

 

[Lhynn]

Im so angry, but im right.

PS: holy shit has that thing been improved. (meaning AoD)

 

[Roguey]

You do if itemization isn't shit. That's what I'm saying. If items can be compared with small pop-up boxes and without actually reading the details, then itemization is bad.

The details of both those items can be fit into pop-up boxes. Right-clicking was necessary back then because the UI was made for 640x480 resolutions.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Grunker, if good itemization means lots of non-linear differences in the form of special bonuses/penalties, then I'd think lists would be even more of an advantage. Imagine 10 different weapons in your inventory like Celestial Fury, which "Stuns opponents unless it make a save vs. spells. 5% chance 20 electrical damage is inflicted. Blindness and Lightning Strike may be used once per day." That's three special bonuses; try memorizing that 10 times over. I'd prefer "special effect 1", "special effect 2", etc. columns over clicking each weapon seperately and forgetting the properties half way through.

 

[hiver]

How the fuck can you not get angry at this shit.

Scum cannot even form a proper argument but rely just on repeating their personal (stupid - ignorant) preferences - as if thats the fucking proof.
"No, No, you are wrrooong because i like this!"

Well fuck you and what you like, assholes.


-edit-

here we go!

Grunker, if good itemization means lots of non-linear differences in the form of special bonuses/penalties, then I'd think lists would be even more of an advantage. Imagine 10 different weapons in your inventory like Celestial Fury, which "Stuns opponents unless it make a save vs. spells. 5% chance 20 electrical damage is inflicted. Blindness and Lightning Strike may be used once per day." That's three special bonuses; try memorizing that 10 times over. I'd prefer "special effect 1", "special effect 2", etc. columns over clicking each weapon seperately and forgetting the properties half way through.

For fuck sake...

Are we to design crucial elements of the game because some fucking retard cannot remember a descirption of a unique epic item? that cannot open inventory and read it again?

is this where the devs go into full PANIC MODE and make a simpleton proof turd - that we all have to enjoy later on?

 

[Infinitron]

Jim the Dinosaur What you need to remember is that no adventurer starts his career with ten awesome magical weapons in his inventory that he needs to distinguish between. You start small and slowly grow more powerful, slowly upgrading your standard "kit" as you progress. You're rarely overwhelmed by a variety of new items and you always have a pretty good idea of what you have any given moment.

That's what many of these discussions about inventory fail to take into account. Your inventory isn't a random collection that you're examining for the first time - it's a collection that you should already have a good idea of what items are in it and how they got there. (The degree to which that's actually true has implications on whether a list or a grid is the ideal system.)

 

[felipepepe]

Grunker, if good itemization means lots of non-linear differences in the form of special bonuses/penalties, then I'd think lists would be even more of an advantage. Imagine 10 different weapons in your inventory like Celestial Fury, which "Stuns opponents unless it make a save vs. spells. 5% chance 20 electrical damage is inflicted. Blindness and Lightning Strike may be used once per day." That's three special bonuses; try memorizing that 10 times over. I'd prefer "special effect 1", "special effect 2", etc. columns over clicking each weapon seperately and forgetting the properties half way through.

Besides what Hiver politely said, do you realize that you're talking about adding 3 lines of special abilities descriptions under every magical item, on a list interface? That would looks like absolute shit bro.

 

[SCO]

You can get most the advantages of a list just by having a sorting button (by category, by AC, etc if you want to be fancy) somewhere on the inventory, and a hovering popup for the main stats that compares to the equipped stuff like i want.

Not all of the advantages, because columns are used to make 'stable' sorts (where you basically sort by some characteristic then in sequence sort by another and the first sort relative positions are maintained as much as possible).

Also, filtering/sorting is only highly useful for unlimited inventories (although bags of holding in BG almost make one reconsider....), which is my understanding that P:E will not have. For me, a list inventory is almost entirely superfluous (and the item inventory looks better true).

 

[felipepepe]

Or you can stop showering players with shitty equipment that don't do shit besides +1 armor. Seriously, fucking DIABLO, a.k.a. "kill shit and get loot" game had tetris inventory and no one cries for excel sheets to compare armors... why people now think it's cool to carry around 8 armor sets and be able to sort them by armor rating or whatever?

 

[SCO]

Tell it to BG2, the game P:E is cloning. But i'm only lobbying for the hover popup with equipped stuff vs inventory stuff comparison anyway.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Jim the Dinosaur What you need to remember is that no adventurer starts his career with ten awesome magical weapons in his inventory that he needs to distinguish between. You start small and slowly grow more powerful, slowly upgrading your standard "kit" as you progress. You're rarely overwhelmed by a variety of new items and you always have a pretty good idea of what you have any given moment.

That's what many of these discussions about inventory fail to take into account. Your inventory isn't a random collection that you're examining for the first time - it's a collection that you should already have a good idea of what items are in it and how they got there. (The degree to which that's actually true has implications on whether a list or a grid is the ideal system.)

The hypothetical Celestial Furies I was talking about don't have to be "awesome", they just need to have several unique bonuses or penalties that differentiate them from others; they might be pretty crappy. I rarely had to reread the description of Celestial Fury because I knew that, especially with a dual wielding character, it was always going to be in the top two of his weapons; I definitely had no idea what all three specific bonuses were. If you take a much more non-linear route than the BG's, and you have to pay a lot of attention to situational tradeoffs (which weapon is better against which specific type of enemy), then it is useful to get an overview to compare.

Grunker, if good itemization means lots of non-linear differences in the form of special bonuses/penalties, then I'd think lists would be even more of an advantage. Imagine 10 different weapons in your inventory like Celestial Fury, which "Stuns opponents unless it make a save vs. spells. 5% chance 20 electrical damage is inflicted. Blindness and Lightning Strike may be used once per day." That's three special bonuses; try memorizing that 10 times over. I'd prefer "special effect 1", "special effect 2", etc. columns over clicking each weapon seperately and forgetting the properties half way through.

Besides what Hiver politely said, do you realize that you're talking about adding 3 lines of special abilities descriptions under every magical item, on a list interface? That would looks like absolute shit bro.

If a large enough number of magical weapons has that many special penalties/bonuses, then having a clear overview is to me preferable to having a more aesthetically pleasing solution that leaves me with no idea of which weapon is preferable in a certain situation short of going through descriptions all the time.

My point's just that whether you have mainly linear progression where you can get a clear view of your weapons by sorting by damage, accuracy or item cost; or a non-linear progression with lots of unique special abilities, lists give a better overview. Aesthetics I guess depends on the artist involved (AoD and FO for instance had great looking icons, but are big and unwieldy as fuck as well).

 

[hiver]

That's what many of these discussions about inventory fail to take into account. Your inventory isn't a random collection that you're examining for the first time - it's a collection that you should already have a good idea of what items are in it and how they got there.

Of bloody course.

You can get most the advantages of a list just by having a sorting button (by category, by AC, etc if you want to be fancy) somewhere on the inventory, and a hovering popup for the main stats that compares to the equipped stuff like i want.

Sorting buttons were very specifically and strongly suggested to Torment team in inventory suggestions thread.
By type of an item the most. By value.
And you can add all other distinguishing factors as - if you want or need.

Since these kinds of RPGs do not rely on collecting hundreds of stupid inconsequential items anyway (and you do sell most of the loot anyway) - this type of inventory would provide the clearest, best overview - of actual ITEMS.

My point's just that whether you have mainly linear progression where you can get a clear view of your weapons by sorting by damage, accuracy or item cost; or a non-linear progression with lots of unique special abilities, lists give a better overview. Aesthetics I guess depends on the artist involved (AoD and FO for instance had great looking icons, but are big and unwieldy as fuck as well).

Go back a page - answer my riddle or shut the fuck up with your blatant self serving lying empty statements.

What exactly makes those icons "big and unwieldy as fuck"?
Can you explain, support, prove that statement with anything?

 

[SCO]

Well, i wouldn't even mind if the game was to adopt the sort of obscurantism you see in Realms of Arkania lol. I'm tolerant. But i just hate seeing something done badly usability wise. If you're going to do it, do it right.

 

[SCO]

BTW, Jim the Dinosaur, i doubt there is enough real estate even on 1024x768 minimum resolution for lists with enough special abilities stuff displayed as columns. Even the TOME4 inventory pic i posted last page, the text in some columns goes back and forth when hovered to display all of it without resizing.

 

[Surf Solar]

People demand item comparison stuff, in fucking popup boxes? Jesus..

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

SCO , you're probably right; I just liked the idea I read into Grunker's comment on good itemization of huge amounts of special bonuses/penalties for most weapons and how you'd make that work in practice (still don't think popups would adequately handle that, let alone a grid inven). Plus I got hiver to call me names, which I'd never done before.

 

[hiver]

Is that a clever way to avoid actually supporting your empty statements with anything?

also, im not calling you names. Im calling your thinking and your ideas names.

People demand item comparison stuff, in fucking popup boxes? Jesus..

And then they wonder why the global human intelligence levels are falling.

 

[Roguey]

People demand item comparison stuff, in fucking popup boxes? Jesus..

Why not? It can work like DA:O where right-clicking lets you view a larger description.

All RPGs can benefit from being able to compare what your character has equipped to what you're hovering over in your inventory.

 

[SCO]

Doesn't really have to be a popup, as long as it is a piece of screen estate that doesn't require clicking or any interaction except mouse hovering. Popup is just convenient because it should ideally show all stat comparisons at once and a popup can grow or shrink as needed (without scrolling, clicking, etc).

All RPGs can benefit from being able to compare what your character has equipped to what you're hovering over in your inventory.

sure. I mean obviously the long text description has to be on another place. And if it's really long, it better be on a dedicated right click thing.

 

[hiver]

Thats not so hard to do by clicking one item and then another, y know...

 

[Roguey]

Extra work and needlessly requires temporarily memorizing the statistics of one item.

 

[hiver]

- extra work is sometimes good for you.

 

[SCO]

Not when you're trying to find a item with a specific characteristic (for instance, lightning damage to fuck up a enemy with weakness to it) and comparing that elemental damage to the one you already have equipped.
Click on equipment; click on inventory item; see if it's better, dismiss popup; exchange if it is (or memorize the value), repeat
vs
going down the inventory; find the best and equip

(btw, another very convenient alternative function for right click is to exchange inventory item under with equipped one, not sure if better than showing description).
edit: maybe a ctrl+click thing.

 

[Surf Solar]

It's very hard to memorize an items statistics and attributes for ~10 seconds while looking at the other one, I need the computer to compare them for me in a fancy box, amirite