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Old/obscure/underrated JRPGs

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
7th Saga is one of the worst offenders ever.

You sure are a stubborn fuck. :lol:

Completely incapable of imagining everyone didn't share your experience of the game, even after being told so.

How about this, "My limited experience with the game suggests that you have to grind a lot, but others may have had a different experience." Too sane and impartial for you, moron?
 

Coriolanus

Learned
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
355
Location
Limberry Castle
I've been playing 7th Saga on and off, blindly, with the elf mage. It's not been grindy so far in the sense that I haven't had to backtrack to farm for XP or items, the bosses are challenging but usually beatable the first time you meet them. I haven't tried to deliberately avoid encounters so far, and yes - there are encounters every few steps this way. Sometimes I've had to stumble around to search for treasure with inevitable encounter XP on the side - I guess that doesn't count as grind?

So if "grindy" = lots of combat - yes, it is grindy (game is basically all combat). If grindy = having to walk around farming monsters for XP and stuff, then the first half or so of the game isn't that bad, at least with a mage. I don't know, maybe it gets really bad later on (I hope not). Maybe some other classes are really weak.

Mind you these days, grinding doesn't really matter so much, because on most emulators there is an accelerate function, which makes even the most grindy(yeah that's probably not a word, but oh well) games playable. The accelerate on the snes emulator's is way over the top, you can't tell what is going on at all.... but you can still mash "A" to grind :D

A godsend. I'd probably ragequit 10 minutes in if I didn't play this game without the fast-forward button. I can see why it got slammed by the reviewers.
 

Koschey

Arcane
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
622
Location
Germany
nomask7 You yourself state you are only halfway through the game, with the easymode companion to boot. You know what you have to do if he doesn't want to join you first chance you get, yet you still want him for the team? That's right, grind. Not sure what exactly causes this to be rerolled (didn't test it myself extensively; I've read everything from 'fight 10 battles' to 'earn 500 xp' to 'gain a level'), but what it definitely comes down to is fight. With Kamil and Valsu, you have a pair who are likely to work together, try getting him with Lejes or Wilme; not impossible, but with bad luck definitely grindy. It's even worse if you try switching companions from time to time.

Additionally, the problem gets worse later in the game, because enemy stats were boosted, while the player characters stat gains on level up were crippled (though apparently there is an 'Elnard' patch floating around, reinstituting original enemy stats and either boosting initial PC stats or fixing stat gains). And even if you don't need the levels, equipment gets expensive enough that you'll have to grind for money (unless you're running with Lux/Wilme or something...have fun!)


In the end, the whole discussion started because I said Mystic Ark is a lot less grindy than 7th Saga. Which it is. Mostly because the boosted enemy stats/crippled player stat gains aren't a thing in Mystic Ark. If you think 7th Saga can't be called grindy at all because you completed half of it with an easy team (very sane and impartial by the way :lol:), all that should say to you is that in Mystic Ark grinding is basically absent (which it is). Equipment is ridiculously cheap and the damage new enemies do when they first appear is miniscule compared to 7th Saga.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,960
Rudras is proving to be interesting and confounding. I've discovered a number of interesting things so far. Right off the bat, I found what are clearly some of the best spells in the game: NIHILIST does massive light damage to all enemies and has a very epic animation. RUDRA does similar damage to a single target for half the cost. After some experimenting, the hint I got from a dungeon revealed that REEM increases magic defense, and can be combined with elements to create specific elemental defenses. IG is the base fire word for example (though FIRE also works, has the exact same cost and effect and combines with the same suffixes), so IGREEM creates fire defense. However, while NA is the generic means of making things hit all (NAREEM is magic defense for all for example, and IGNA is fire damage to all for cheap) IGU is shorter, but produces a fire all attack of significantly more power. Likewise, AQU is the water base, bit AQUA does a water attack vs all for a lot more damage. IGUREEM and AQUAREEM also create elemental barriers for all the way IGNAREEM does, but cost a lot more. But just jamming in random letters doesn't do anything helpful. IGJNAREEM for example, goes back to single target fire protection. So clearly it's taking the high powered IGU as it's own word and combining with the magic defense base. However, ANGEL produces a powerful light attack with a unique animation, and HEAVEN does as well (a similar theme but with multiple targets) but ANGELREEM is just gibberish. There was also an enemy spell, RANIHIMEL that cost a measely 4 MP and produces a weak non elemental multi target attack. To make things even weirder, some combos don't produce proper animations, and just make text float across the screen. WAR is an example of this. There are also very small spells that are inexplicably powerful, like OD being a strong lightning attack vs all. Which I actually discovered by trying ODIN first and dicking around. ODIN gave a stronger lightning attack vs all with a totally different animation. To confuse me even more, One of the suffixes enemies/item spells seem to use is NATES. NATES by itself is a non elemental attack all spell. But TES is a wind attack vs all (and fairly strong to boot) possibly the wind equivalent of IGU to IG, but TES is the same length as TEO, which is kinda weird. At any rate, IGU and IGUNATES have the same animations, while IGNATES is cheaper than either and looks different. Further, I just discovered a base for light elementals, STAR, STARNATES however, is cheaper than STARTES. And STARTES is single target only. And now I've found HOLY is the light base, costing only one MP. But HOLYNATES costs more than STARNATES, even though STAR costs more than HOLY. And now I've just discovered HEAVEN does WAY less damage than STARNATES, even though the later costs only 1 MP more. Different scaling methods perhaps?

Overall, I'm having a ton of fun. They must have done insane amounts of work to translate all this stuff. I was ecstatic when I found out HEAVEN was a special spell, and so was HELL and ANGEL. VAMPIRE steals life, DEATH is an instant kill. And BLADE is a water elemental attack vs all with a chance of freezing, which implies room for improvement even on really powerful spells by adding status effects.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
Rudras is proving to be interesting and confounding. I've discovered a number of interesting things so far. Right off the bat, I found what are clearly some of the best spells in the game: NIHILIST does massive light damage to all enemies and has a very epic animation. RUDRA does similar damage to a single target for half the cost. After some experimenting, the hint I got from a dungeon revealed that REEM increases magic defense, and can be combined with elements to create specific elemental defenses. IG is the base fire word for example (though FIRE also works, has the exact same cost and effect and combines with the same suffixes), so IGREEM creates fire defense. However, while NA is the generic means of making things hit all (NAREEM is magic defense for all for example, and IGNA is fire damage to all for cheap) IGU is shorter, but produces a fire all attack of significantly more power. Likewise, AQU is the water base, bit AQUA does a water attack vs all for a lot more damage. IGUREEM and AQUAREEM also create elemental barriers for all the way IGNAREEM does, but cost a lot more. But just jamming in random letters doesn't do anything helpful. IGJNAREEM for example, goes back to single target fire protection. So clearly it's taking the high powered IGU as it's own word and combining with the magic defense base. However, ANGEL produces a powerful light attack with a unique animation, and HEAVEN does as well (a similar theme but with multiple targets) but ANGELREEM is just gibberish. There was also an enemy spell, RANIHIMEL that cost a measely 4 MP and produces a weak non elemental multi target attack. To make things even weirder, some combos don't produce proper animations, and just make text float across the screen. WAR is an example of this. There are also very small spells that are inexplicably powerful, like OD being a strong lightning attack vs all. Which I actually discovered by trying ODIN first and dicking around. ODIN gave a stronger lightning attack vs all with a totally different animation. To confuse me even more, One of the suffixes enemies/item spells seem to use is NATES. NATES by itself is a non elemental attack all spell. But TES is a wind attack vs all (and fairly strong to boot) possibly the wind equivalent of IGU to IG, but TES is the same length as TEO, which is kinda weird. At any rate, IGU and IGUNATES have the same animations, while IGNATES is cheaper than either and looks different. Further, I just discovered a base for light elementals, STAR, STARNATES however, is cheaper than STARTES. And STARTES is single target only. And now I've found HOLY is the light base, costing only one MP. But HOLYNATES costs more than STARNATES, even though STAR costs more than HOLY. And now I've just discovered HEAVEN does WAY less damage than STARNATES, even though the later costs only 1 MP more. Different scaling methods perhaps?

Overall, I'm having a ton of fun. They must have done insane amounts of work to translate all this stuff. I was ecstatic when I found out HEAVEN was a special spell, and so was HELL and ANGEL. VAMPIRE steals life, DEATH is an instant kill. And BLADE is a water elemental attack vs all with a chance of freezing, which implies room for improvement even on really powerful spells by adding status effects.
Yeah the translation of that system from kanji to the english alphabet must have taken an incredible effort.

Slightly of tangent, but whenever I played Rudra, both the story and the magic system always somehow makes me think about Malazan Book of the Fallen. I know there is very little in common but I feel like that entire story and the mechanics of the gameplay could fit into that whole fantasy world.
 

nomask7

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
7,620
So if "grindy" = lots of combat - yes, it is grindy (game is basically all combat).

The reason I asked about this was that JRPGs in general are very combat heavy, so it's strange to single out this game for being grindy when the genre that it's part of is known for mega tons of boring combat, while 7th Saga has potentially less combat because it's largely avoidable.

If you think it's grindy, use Kamil and Valsu, and try to avoid combat as much as you can. The game immediately transforms into an exciting monster-avoidance game with the closest parallel in Night of the Raven.
 

Coriolanus

Learned
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
355
Location
Limberry Castle
Ugh. PSP or bust.

Anyway, i'm desperate enough for sjrpg that i'm looking at Gungnir seriously.

Gungnir, let me remind you, has this (terrible) kind of artstyle:
Gungnir-Screenshots-for-The-PSP-4.jpg

gungnir6003.jpg


But oh, does it seem complex...

I can finally get Wild Arms XF to work under the latest PPSSPP build http://buildbot.orphis.net/ppsspp/, looks like a decent SRPG with hex grid (wow).

 
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SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Wild arms XF waifu anime tendencies are almost immediately evident, but it proves itself a properly hard game almost immediately too :M (was stuck for a while on a first chapter mission).
 

Stabwound

Arcane
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,240
What's great about Wild Arms XF is that it differs from traditional strat-jrpgs in that the mission goals vary. It's not always "kill the boss" or "kill everyone" but shit like "protect the villiagers" or "avoid the guards and rescue hostages without being seen."

It's something that the genre sorely needs. Great game, IMO.
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
12,042
Location
Flowery Land
The biggest problem is that each unit has a stamina bar that depletes each turn and drains your HP instead when it is depleted. The problem is that a lot of the time you have no choice but to wait due to how the missions are set up and happening every turn means faster units are going to kill themselves a lot if they don't have the ability that restores the gauge when waiting without doing anything (and even then, it doesn't always restore more than you lose). This could all be fixed with just a proper manual turn delay option instead of waiting making characters next turn come faster.

I like that the classes aren't traditional for the most part, but this often makes some of them ENTIRELY useless outside of their niche (unless you need to find such an item because of one of the objectives or are searching for something in a free battle, the class that exists only to find hidden items has very little use to my memory) and that the main character focused her unique abilities on support instead of being an omnipotent powerhouse.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The game is built around respec. I guess this was needed so that the goal directed objectives wouldn't cause everyone to get stuck into grinding a new class when they suddenly need it, but i don't like the respec concept.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
What's great about Wild Arms XF is that it differs from traditional strat-jrpgs in that the mission goals vary. It's not always "kill the boss" or "kill everyone" but shit like "protect the villiagers" or "avoid the guards and rescue hostages without being seen."

It's something that the genre sorely needs. Great game, IMO.
BTW growlanser wayfare of time is also like that (if not TB, but RTwP), and can also be quite hard. It's a bit too long for it's own good, but it has some story choices later on regarding what happens in some missions.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
2 years later edit: if you're reading this, check out the other stickie about 'interesting jrpg systems'. TL;DR : it absolutely is worth it. Hard game - aiming for max rank - very innovative, requires reading the manual.

I haven't played it through yet. The combat system is ... strange. I can't recall specifics. This company is famous for introducing whole new 'almost' traditional systems on their every game with one (or two, or three) weird twist that is not apparent; so it's expected, almost.

Also there i think there is some kind of tension between low mission turns (score, probably used for something in the story since they went to the trouble of making the lighting of the battlefield change) and capturing the random treasures scatered around the battle field (to the point i think it's impossible to both get a high score and capture them on only one play-through - items transfer, which is a bit of Japanese 'design' i can do without most times, although i didn't mind it in TitS since it's limited).
 
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victim

Cipher
Possibly Retarded Vatnik
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
778
It's not that obscure and it's just not all that great. It's basically baby's first sjrpg with decent presentation and light inappropriate japanese insanity thrown into the plot for good measure. Fairly enjoyable if you know what you're getting into, hardly underrated. If anything, most reviews I've seen praise the game too much.

Some of the design decisions in it are really bizarre, though. If I remember correctly (it's been a while) the game poses absolutely no challenge - unless, possibly, you've never played any kind of turn based game whatsoever - up until the point where you unlock the arena (optional combat, higher difficulty - the usual crap). The problem with that is, if you want to engage the more challenging enemies on the arena you have to to grind around 20-30 levels - that's from around the level you can easily beat the game at (which is so easy you don't need to do any optional fights or even think about customizing your team) - in order to reach a level at which you stand a fighting chance. Not necessarily the level of the enemies, mind you, because that would require even more grinding. So is you want to be challenged at all, you need to work your ass off for hours before you're allowed the privilege. And the game clearly isn't even made for people looking for challenge. What the hell was the point of that?

Nice graphics, decent cutscenes if you like that sort of thing, alright music, silly plot. Decent introduction into the genre for someone who's never played a video game before.

The game's pretty easy, yeah. T'was my first SRPG and a pretty enjoyable introduction to the sub-genre for me.

Was hoping they'd create spiritual sequels based on other historical figures but alas...

I enjoyed but just stopped playing it one day and never really felt the desire to go back and finish it. Its just not quite up there with the best handheld srpgs. And I say that as someone who really liked Onimuisha Tactics and the Yu Yu Hakushko srpg on GBA.
 

mck

Cipher
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Messages
599
victim could you explain what you liked about Onimusha Tactics and The YuYu Hawk-a-Show? I just discovered these recently and was wondering how they were.
 

spekkio

Arcane
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
8,358
I did - it's kinda meh.
Story and art are good, but the system is slightly broken (surprise, for a japtacical game :roll:).
You not only use regular units, but also can deploy "dolls" (mechanical units), which come in 3 different types (working in rock/paper/scissors way). Problem is, if you decide not to use them from the beginning of the game and thus distribute all the available EXP between regular units, they will soon become so powerful, that using dolls is no longer necessary.
Anyway: nothing special, there are much better JT games out there (Vandal Hearts, Front Mission).
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I more or less agree with the above, sept that Vandal Hearts is very limited (but neat).

Kartia's biggest problem is that the majority of what you can do in combat is objectively inferior to relatively few effective choices, turning the otherwise "rich" content into an illusion. The way the system works is... not very good either. You sort of pre-set things and both sides move at once which results in some awkward events. Vandal Hearts 2 had a similar system.

I have been meaning to try Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth -- anyone have any comments/thoughts on that?

Or Suikoden Tactics for ps2?
 

mck

Cipher
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Messages
599
Everything I have ever read about Hoshihami is that it is impossibly hard and you have to grind for hours and exploit the game to complete it.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Hoshigami is a terribly slow game. There are Xp animations on every single attack, there are two modes of attack (knockback for combos and normal attack... that are implemented on the same button as a slider 'guess the spot' minigame). It also has the 'distinction' of using both a FFT 'need attacking your own dudes for keep up with xp' and a magic god elemental opposites system... which is a horribly complicated.
You're supposed to change your toons religion - and thus their equipment - once in a while to get different bonuses once you 'master a religion' (a less complicated version of Wild Arms XF respec concept, although this is annoying in that it doesn't outright forbid unsuitable equipment, 'just' lowers your damage).
____Gote __________ Amu



Ema /_______\/_______\ Zeneth



_Sonova \/______\/ Kashis


Follow it clockwise and you will know what Deity is strong against what Deity,
here's an example: The Deity Sonova, look clockwise, the next Deity is Ema, that
means that Sonova is strong against Ema. In other words, you will deal more
damage and receive less damage from Ema.

Follow it counter clockwise and you will know what Deity is weak against what
Deity, here's an example: The Deity Kashis, look counter clockwise, the next
Deity is Zeneth, that means that Kashis is weak against Zeneth. In other words,
you will deal less damage and receive more from Zeneth.

All Deities have an opposed Deity, to know what Deity is opposed to what Deity
take a look on the lines that cross the circle. For example Kashis Deity is
opposed to Gote. Opposed Deities assist each other.

Not to mention the magic system, which is downright cryptographic (magic is consumables. To create better magic you need to combine them. Balancing properties in binary opposition - meaning it's a zero sum game, to get something better it has to be worse at another thing. If you fuck it up you can end up with something worse altogether).

Then there is the 'stealing' system.... which requires a combo with all members of your team. There is a fun puzzle minigame involving the combo system though, that was nice.
All that said it was also easy until i stopped playing.

wasn't remixed enough :yeah:

play gungnir or wildarms xf or metal gear acid or valkyria chronicles or devil survivor instead.
 
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TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
Hoshigami is basically legendary for its badness as far as English translated JSRPGs go and even the "remake" on the DS is still shitty.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I was writing about the DS version btw.

What was that japan only Sega title which used the Valkyria Chronicles combat system?
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
I imagine you're thinking of "Shining Ark", but I probably wouldn't bother, because I've heard it's so easy as hell that it doesn't really take advantage of said battle system.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
sad brofist
 

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