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cvv

Arcane
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
vely bad.
tl;dr: Games that achieve what they set out to do (design-wise) are good, those that fail to achieve that are bad.

How do you measure if a game achieved what it set out to do design-wise? No game creator, or any creator, ever achieves what they set out to do with 100%. So what's a good percentage?

And what if a dev did achieve 100% of everything they wanted and literally nobody would play their game? Would it be a good game? Can a novel be good if the only person thinking it's good is the writer?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
In reality there's no such thing as "good" games or "bad" games. It's all subjective.
No, it isn't.
Games can very much be objectively good and objectively bad.
tl;dr: Games that achieve what they set out to do (design-wise) are good, those that fail to achieve that are bad.
Obviously, anything in-between is possible.

Rating the art aspect of something isn't really possible, but games are not purely art.
There are dozens, maybe hundreds of things about games that are purely craft-based and can be rated just like any other product from a chair to a hairdryer.

Of course, that won't tell you if you'd like the game, but it gives you a good estimate of how likely it is that you'll like it.
Enjoyment is indeed fully subjective.

Even subjective preferences can be properly explained in a review. You know I utterly despise procedural generation, but I know you love it, and if I were to write a review about a game with proc gen I'd mention it as a negative feature... but people who like that kind of thing are going to think "Oh, that sounds like something I would enjoy."

The best reviews explain the author's opinion based on the game's features and delivery. It has features X, Y and Z, and I personally like/dislike them. And then, of course, you can try to objectively rate how well the game manages to implement those features. Is the combat good? The encounter design? The interface? The performance? Do all the features work properly or are they broken? Etc etc.

Which features you enjoy and which you don't is subjective. Whether a feature is implemented well or implemented badly is objective, though. If the interface is cumbersome, that's an objective flaw. If the game promises 3 different classes but they all play the same, that's an objective flaw. If the AI is stupid and commits sepukku all the time, that's an objective flaw. etc.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
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Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
vely bad.
tl;dr: Games that achieve what they set out to do (design-wise) are good, those that fail to achieve that are bad.

How do you measure if a game achieved what it set out to do design-wise? No game creator, or any creator, ever achieves what they set out to do with 100%. So what's a good percentage?
That's one of the reasons 10/10 or 100% scores are bullshit. No game is entirely perfect. Same as 0/10 or 0% review bombs - no game is THAT bad.
A good percentage is what used to be good percentage before games "journalism" went to shit (when only 90%+ became "good"). The Steam review scores are a relatively good guideline in this. I think 70% is "mostly positive" there.

How you measure it is by first knowing what the game set out to do in the first place.
Which requires a good knowledge of games and game design to begin with, as well as research on the game at hand, including statements from the developers.
Obviously, that's a lot of work, which is why we see it so rarely.

With things you cannot find out, you have to make assumptions, and declare them as such in the review.

And what if a dev did achieve 100% of everything they wanted and literally nobody would play their game? Would it be a good game? Can a novel be good if the only person thinking it's good is the writer?
In that case the game would still be objectively good or objectively bad, but nobody would actually know it because nobody made the attempt to measure it.
In the same way that a flower in a forest objectively has a color, even if nobody is there to see it.

A dev's own rating of their game can theoretically be objective as well, though in practice the bias might make that impossible.
 

Serious_Business

Best Poster on the Codex
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Frown Town
And what if a dev did achieve 100% of everything they wanted and literally nobody would play their game? Would it be a good game? Can a novel be good if the only person thinking it's good is the writer?
In that case the game would still be objectively good or objectively bad, but nobody would actually know it because nobody made the attempt to measure it.
In the same way that a flower in a forest objectively has a color, even if nobody is there to see it.

A dev's own rating of their game can theoretically be objective as well, though in practice the bias might make that impossible.

The flower doesn't have a color if there is no man to state that the color is there and can be perceived - so you have a subjective component there (perception). Without perception objectivity does not exist. Without men objectivity (rational criteria) is a big fat nothing. Philosophically you have to make the distinction between reality and objectivity, but let's cut that discussion. You said yourself that there were many components in games which could not be evaluated objectively ; the ones that are objective are the one that function. Functionality has nothing with good or bad ; something that function, functions ; it can function well or badly, but that says nothing about the thing being good or bad. Good or bad, in fact, these are essentially moral concepts ; something that functions very well can obviously be very bad ; these concepts have nothing to do with aesthetics. Art is not good or bad, it's interesting, or not. But games aren't art. They still are, in a way, art, however, so you're not saving yourself by trying to limit yourself to the functional components of the product. At any rate, esentially when someone says everything is subjective, they mean : we can't talk about it. This is obviously refuted by the fact that people are talking about it because, precisely, it's considered "subjective". So we can talk about it, but everything we say about it does not matter because it is be subjective, so we should stop talking about it. Why? Should we say things only when they are objective? But aren't they always? How is language subjective? Is it subjective like perception? How is what I'm saying purely subjective, if you can apprehend it like an object, like language? You can go on and on about this. The only real problem being : I want to feel validated when I talk about this. Validated how, by who, for what? Fuck off, huh?
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
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Scandinavia
Try Troubleshooter instead.

Me:

interesting.png
--> :steamsearch: -->
header.jpg
--> :negative:
Hero Irene is best girl.
Kicking the ass of villainy and doesn't afraid of anything.
simplistic combat without exciting abilities at all, and limited classes
repeated maps
confusing ui
super easy

Just like Iratus then.

Was initially ignoring the game in Steam since the art style is a bit too close to anime for my tastes but then I noticed it's actually a TB tactic game and got exited. Sadly it does seem it's more style than substance, that 9/10 IGN score is a warning sign.

Try Troubleshooter instead.
Is it so good i could overlook that weaboo shit?

Yes. Luckmann Jasede if you need a second opinion.
I have no idea what this is about I just see Troubleshooter and god yes, it's actually an amazing game. It's got an element of garage development, sure, and it's unironic weebshit, and the translation is sometimes hilariously bad, and the story is.. questionable, especially at first, and appears more gonzo than it actually is.

But boy, underneath those highly superficial faults is a genuinely great game that I cannot recommend enough. Bar very minor things, it blows things like nu-COM out of the water. I've not been this pleasantly surprised by a game in quite some time, bar perhaps Disco Elysium. I just had it recommended to me by Lhynn via the Codex Discord, decided to give it a shot despite the fact that it looked like a shitty japanese dating sim, and that was like two weeks ago and I'm still playing this shit and I can't stop.

Send help.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
10,098
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The flower doesn't have a color if there is no man to state that the color is there and can be perceived - so you have a subjective component there (perception).
That's retardedly dumb, congratulations.
You don't need perception to know that a certain flower has a certain color. Flowers don't just plop into existence when one looks at them, they just exist no matter if anyone looks at them or not.
And, please, don't start with the "colors are subjective" crap now, I think this example has run its course.

Without perception objectivity does not exist. Without men objectivity (rational criteria) is a big fat nothing. Philosophically you have to make the distinction between reality and objectivity, but let's cut that discussion. You said yourself that there were many components in games which could not be evaluated objectively ; the ones that are objective are the one that function. Functionality has nothing with good or bad ; something that function, functions ; it can function well or badly, but that says nothing about the thing being good or bad. Good or bad, in fact, these are essentially moral concepts ; something that functions very well can obviously be very bad ; these concepts have nothing to do with aesthetics. Art is not good or bad, it's interesting, or not. But games aren't art. They still are, in a way, art, however, so you're not saving yourself by trying to limit yourself to the functional components of the product. At any rate, esentially when someone says everything is subjective, they mean : we can't talk about it. This is obviously refuted by the fact that people are talking about it because, precisely, it's considered "subjective". So we can talk about it, but everything we say about it does not matter because it is be subjective, so we should stop talking about it. Why? Should we say things only when they are objective? But aren't they always? How is language subjective? Is it subjective like perception? How is what I'm saying purely subjective, if you can apprehend it like an object, like language? You can go on and on about this. The only real problem being : I want to feel validated when I talk about this. Validated how, by who, for what? Fuck off, huh?
I won't even bother with that load of hogwash.
But I can give you a diagnosis: you have a serious case of "liking the sound of your own voice too much", or maybe the literary equivalent of that.
 

entr0py

Scholar
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
101
Location
Always a step ahead of you...
To be honest, without any cynicism, this is exactly why I love the Codex, we are only 33 comments in for a new game and a phiilosophical debate about perception and objectivity has already ran its course.... I love to be in a similarly autistic company as myself
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,773
Location
Republic of Kongou
Downloaded it for the edgy waifus, actually tried it because someone said you can make up a headcanon that this has incest.
Pretty disappointing so far, you have three units (edit, you get 4 units later but only 3 classes) with limited abilities and the big gimmick is you're not strong enough to face the bosses normally so you have to lose a run and then try again with new bonuses and the ability to resurrect girls you've already leveled up.
This boils down to grinding out a lot of synapse missions, which tend to be rather easy and are not randomly generated despite this being roguelike inspired so I started getting bored really fast despite having my fetishes catered to. They also didn't bother to put a limit on how many times you hear a single voice line per missions so enjoy hearing how doctors worship torture and call it science over and over again.

One thing I like is how they made all your girls anime dash when moving so you don't have to spend too much time watching them walk around. Too bad they didn't do the same for the enemies whose animations feel really sluggish, and in survival missions you'll have to watch random enemies fucking around at the opposite end of the map every turn.


Also for a game where you need to sacrifice your units, the naming field is too small.
My current score: Should have been X-Pirates/10
 
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