Indie Passageway of the Ancients - Baldur's Gate-Like RPG with Dual-Persona Character Development

[ERYFKRAD]

how do I reach all those younger gamers that hate reading anything

To be blunt do you honestly expect their ilk to be a target audience in the first place?

 

[Tyranicon]

They give me hope for the game's writing.

It takes the soul of a poet to write this! Too many fantasy gamers today have little to no tolerance for intricate well formed prose in written form. To compensate for this in game two we are going to do a massive amount of cut scenes thereby putting the prose in a more palatable form.

Agreed that cutscenes are both painful and outdated game design.

Put the text in dialogue boxes that players can quickly skip if they want. Preferably add a log if they want to go back and review conversations.

Unfortunately there's no real way to put prose in a more palatable form unless you have loads of money and get mo-capped cinematics with talented voice actors.

Lots of us like reading. After all, it's an RPG, we expect reading.

 

[Ladonna]

Personally I agree with you, I would prefer to keep it mostly in written format but how do I reach all those younger gamers that hate reading anything?

Make the game you want to make, don't pander to retards, otherwise it will suck the joy out of your creation.

 

[JonG]

However romance will kick into high gear in game two.

I hope this won't take precious time away from other elements of the game. If it's weaved naturally into the narrative with relative ease, sure, but your comments about cutscenes in the second game to appeal to mainstream senses makes me wary the romance thing is another example of that.

Don't worry the romance that develops between some characters in the game is in the original material. In fact game one represents only about half of the material found in the original story. The romance that evolves even when in high gear never eclipses the main plot lines not ever. It's just a facet of these character's lives in the story. We have been playing with the idea of expanding the number of cut scenes in game 2 for the reasons I have cited but the support and insight offered here has given me pause.

Agreed that cutscenes are both painful and outdated game design.

Put the text in dialogue boxes that players can quickly skip if they want. Preferably add a log if they want to go back and review conversations.

Unfortunately there's no real way to put prose in a more palatable form unless you have loads of money and get mo-capped cinematics with talented voice actors.

Lots of us like reading. After all, it's an RPG, we expect reading.

Tyranicon The last two lines of your contribution to this discussion were most compelling from my perspective: If you opt for the cut scene approach those scenes better be spot on and perfect (i.e. very expensive) or they have a high probability of hurting the overall game. Those fantasy role playing gamers that worship at Sauron's eye of glitzy graphics will probably never see the point or value of an intricate story line while the rest actually like reading stories. I somehow lost sight of this simple truth. Thanks for reminding me! We do allow players to review written materials such as lore. quest objectives, journals etc in a dedicated room in the game. Do you think there is a large enough group of fantasy role playing gamers that favor story line and game mechanics/play over glitzy graphics to make the project feasible? When I started my journey of making this game I never even asked that question as I was largely unaware of this eye of Sauron group.

 

[JonG]

Personally I agree with you, I would prefer to keep it mostly in written format but how do I reach all those younger gamers that hate reading anything?

Make the game you want to make, don't pander to retards, otherwise it will suck the joy out of your creation.

And thereby make the creation far less beautiful than it should be. Yes stay true to the vision and don't become transfixed by Sauron's eye! Emotional wisdom Milady. Thanks for that.

 

[JonG]

how do I reach all those younger gamers that hate reading anything

To be blunt do you honestly expect their ilk to be a target audience in the first place?

Your barbarian directness is refreshing. You are obviously correct. Trying to pander to them has a high chance of alienating the group that likes stories and prose while never really reaching the mesmerized group.

 

[Spike]

Your game looks awesome. I love the graphics and how it has that oldschool feel. I think it looks wonderful, this is the peak way to use pixels. I wishlisted it right away. Please have a barbarian for 2 and stay true to your vision, foregoing any pandering to demographics that are not your audience. Does 1 have a paladin at least?

 

[JonG]

I love B-tier games for the same reason I love B movies - unlike the big budget shit, they have soul.

You sir have said eloquently in ONE word what I have been struggling. with lugubrious text, to say about fantasy role playing games in general. When given the choice between spectacular graphics and humbler more soulful fare the choice for me is obvious.

 

[JonG]

Your game looks awesome. I love the graphics and how it has that oldschool feel. I think it looks wonderful, this is the peak way to use pixels. I wishlisted it right away. Please have a barbarian for 2 and stay true to your vision, foregoing any pandering to demographics that are not your audience. Does 1 have a paladin at least?

Yes it has a Paladin!

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Your game looks awesome. I love the graphics and how it has that oldschool feel. I think it looks wonderful, this is the peak way to use pixels. I wishlisted it right away. Please have a barbarian for 2 and stay true to your vision, foregoing any pandering to demographics that are not your audience. Does 1 have a paladin at least?

Yes it has a Paladin!

Now you're just rubbing it in.

 

[Tyranicon]

However romance will kick into high gear in game two.

I hope this won't take precious time away from other elements of the game. If it's weaved naturally into the narrative with relative ease, sure, but your comments about cutscenes in the second game to appeal to mainstream senses makes me wary the romance thing is another example of that.

Don't worry the romance that develops between some characters in the game is in the original material. In fact game one represents only about half of the material found in the original story. The romance that evolves even when in high gear never eclipses the main plot lines not ever. It's just a facet of these character's lives in the story. We have been playing with the idea of expanding the number of cut scenes in game 2 for the reasons I have cited but the support and insight offered here has given me pause.

Agreed that cutscenes are both painful and outdated game design.

Put the text in dialogue boxes that players can quickly skip if they want. Preferably add a log if they want to go back and review conversations.

Unfortunately there's no real way to put prose in a more palatable form unless you have loads of money and get mo-capped cinematics with talented voice actors.

Lots of us like reading. After all, it's an RPG, we expect reading.

Tyranicon The last two lines of your contribution to this discussion were most compelling from my perspective: If you opt for the cut scene approach those scenes better be spot on and perfect (i.e. very expensive) or they have a high probability of hurting the overall game. Those fantasy role playing gamers that worship at Sauron's eye of glitzy graphics will probably never see the point or value of an intricate story line while the rest actually like reading stories. I somehow lost sight of this simple truth. Thanks for reminding me! We do allow players to review written materials such as lore. quest objectives, journals etc in a dedicated room in the game. Do you think there is a large enough group of fantasy role playing gamers that favor story line and game mechanics/play over glitzy graphics to make the project feasible? When I started my journey of making this game I never even asked that question as I was largely unaware of this eye of Sauron group.

I think that while cRPGs are a niche product, there is a significant audience here and more than enough to support independent creators as long as they can gather a following.

As with most things, if you concentrate on writing and storytelling, then having those of high quality will determine your success. But be aware, good writing is much harder to market than great graphics and gameplay.

 

[JonG]

As with most things, if you concentrate on writing and storytelling, then having those of high quality will determine your success. But be aware, good writing is much harder to market than great graphics and gameplay.

We will have great and unique game play as well. Thanks for your input

 

[vazha]

Ditch the cutscenes, add in the Barbarian. Preferably under the working title of the Crushmaster.

 

[udm]

As others have chimed in already, make the game you want. If you want cutscenes, go ahead. If you want a more hardcore RPG, then focus on that. But don't try to appeal to everyone. It never works and you'll just end up pissing people off on both sides. Especially if you're still trying to do initial outreach.

 

[covr]

Hi JonG - could you add micro-transactions to the game? I would love to have some extra exp and shiny red boots from the beginning of my adventure. How many DLC's do you plan to add? And how many genders are already implemented to the game? Any chance to become a dragon at some point? One persona could be body-positive black lesbian dragon and the other might be e.g.some king of fragile fairy or elven prince.

 

[JonG]

But don't try to appeal to everyone

Potent advice for all of us fantasy role playing game developers!
I think at this juncture a bit of analysis about what I have learned so far during my sojourn here is in order. Everyone agrees that the fantasy role playing segment of the game market has grown both in size and in diversity, especially in the last ten to fifteen years. Where it becomes fuzzy is in the details of how this market is distributed amongst its various subcategories, the cross over between these categories and ultimately how to interpret this complex and confusing picture. We have the arrival of the younger crowd with their enthrallment to the specious idol of ever more spectacular graphics that comes bundled with insane prices, weak story-lines and one dimensional game play. I have personally labeled this fantasy role playing game group as the arcade group. They love ever more ostentatious graphics and lots of frenetic rockem-sockem action. On the surface there is nothing wrong with this proclivity of theirs except that it misses one of the main points of the fantasy gaming experience as it was first defined. In the beginning it was always about immersing one's players as completely as possible in an alternate reality. You simply can't do that in a game world filled only with ever more extravagant graphics and frantic linear game play. Having said this, if this subgroup is satisfied with this sever limitation, then moire power to them. The real questions about this group are what portion of the entire fantasy RPG community do they represent, to what extent do they cross over and sample games from other subcategories within the fantasy RPG genre and do they pose any real threat to the rest of the RPG community that wants more than an arcader's rather limited vision of what the ultimate fantasy gaming experience should be. I think that the question about the puiissance of their threat to the remainder of fantasy RPG patrons can be somewhat answered by looking at both the percentage of the total community that they represent and the actual numeric size of the remaining fantasy RPG population. If the remaining RPG advocates are a large enough group then arcaders influence on the style of graphics used by game developers who want to reach audiences that are not part of the arcade group is vastly attenuated. In other words fasntasy RPG developers will have enough of an audience remaining to make their toil worthwhile. That is as long as they don't follow the siren song of glitzy graphics too far. How far should they follow it .... there's the rub! I can say personally that the state of graphics generation tools like Iclone, Blender, Character Creator, MakeHuman, flame Painter the list goes on and on are daily closing the gap between what large studios and small meager ones can do graphically. At some point we will be able to compete in the ostentatious graphics arena with the big boys but will we want to? Or should we take our newly freed resources and dump them into the various channels of game design that amplify story line, game play and game design?
In my own situation on the subject of cut scenes for example I have been ruminating on how to reach these graphics zombies for quite awhile now while recently many members of this thread have repeatedly told me that the use of cut scenes to carry story line wont work on the arcaders and furthermore cutscenes have been abused to such an extent by the big boys that they tend to irritate my real audience. So for me the choice is very simple. Why emphasize this costly avenue (meaning cut scenes done to the graphical level that the arcaders would accept) when the arcade subgroup will probably never see them (since they will never buy the game in the first place) while my more enlightened group will only get disgruntled with the experience.
On the subject of cross over by some arcaders to other subcultures in the RPG community. I have been spontaneously contacted here by a few members of that arcade subculture reassuring me that they are not put off by reading but rather enjoy the experience. Admittedly it is a very small sample size but using inductive reasoning, a tool that became my forte when I was inventing things for the medical world, I will venture to speculate that maybe 10 to 20 percent or perhaps even more of the arcade people will eventually be curious enough to at least look at other styles of RPG games and if we have done our jobs right we have a chance to break their enthrallment to the overlord of extravagant graphics.
In addition, after my positive experience here, I also intuitively feel that the size of the fantasy RPG community that is left, when one partials out the arcaders, is substantially large enough these days to support many, many developers. After all this remaining group contains most players over the age of say 30 to 35 and that is not an insignificant number. Also be aware that time is on our side, these enthralled gamers will eventually get older and realize that there is more that can be had from a fantasy RPG experience then gaudy graphics and furious action.
In essence the real trick is to define and then find your target audience. To that end sites like this help immensely. You have repeatedly reminded me of that point and for good reason. I am listening.
Finally I want to say that my time spent here, on this site, has been very efficacious and I appreciate all of your sincere input so much. I will continue to monitor this site and this thread as closely as time permits and will try to respond in a timely fashion.

 

[vazha]

Dont insight-dump us, bro. We ve barely survived the lore-dumps, we aint ready for this new menace yet. Be more concise & add barbarians.

 

[JonG]

Hi JonG - could you add micro-transactions to the game? I would love to have some extra exp and shiny red boots from the beginning of my adventure. How many DLC's do you plan to add? And how many genders are already implemented to the game? Any chance to become a dragon at some point? One persona could be body-positive black lesbian dragon and the other might be e.g.some king of fragile fairy or elven prince.

Covr; In the game you play a character that is basically a Dragonkindt in shapeshifted form. Shapeshifted forms include dwarf, elf and human. In addition you can assume your dragonkindt form anytime you wish. You are in shapshifted form because of the political climate on Arieyon. Snce Dragonkindt mature rather late sexually you are free to chose the male or femal gender and can with the morphing sliders fashion any sexual identity that is possible between these poles. If the response to the game is good we will be offering DLC. The contents of these DLC's wlll be largely driven by our user base. We will NOT charge anything for these DLCs since part of our mission statement is to keep the cost of fantasy games low and we object to continuously picking the pockets of our loyal patrons.

 

[JonG]

Dont insight-dump us, bro. We ve barely survived the lore-dumps, we aint ready for this new menace yet. Be more concise & add barbarians.

Sorry for the wall of text it was largely aimed at the other developer on this thread. It encapsulates the epiphanies I have had during my stay here on this site. It is a tribute to people like you who have added to my understanding of the fantasy RPG market place. Unfortunately it is a little to late to add barbarians to game one but your voice and that of ERYFKRAD have been heard and barbarians will be there waiting for you in game two. I had no idea that you were such a strong presence.

 

[JonG]

Dont insight-dump us, bro. We ve barely survived the lore-dumps, we aint ready for this new menace yet. Be more concise & add barbarians.

In addition in the future I will try to restrtain my natural tendency to be overly loquacious.

 

[Zed]

This looks very charming. Wishlisted and looking forward to trying it.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

The real questions about this group are what portion of the entire fantasy RPG community do they represent, to what extent do they cross over and sample games from other subcategories within the fantasy RPG genre and do they pose any real threat to the rest of the RPG community that wants more than an arcader's rather limited vision of what the ultimate fantasy gaming experience should be.

On the subject of cross over by some arcaders to other subcultures in the RPG community. I have been spontaneously contacted here by a few members of that arcade subculture reassuring me that they are not put off by reading but rather enjoy the experience.

They rarely cross over, unless you somehow pull a miracle and capture them. Those people here who claim that barely play any of these games. They've played Disco Elysium and now claim they don't play that arcadey style 99% of the time. And if they do cross over, they inevitably cause the decline of many beloved settings/games. Do not fall for their lies if you want to keep your setting pure.

 

[TheCumGuzzler]

Hi JonG - could you add micro-transactions to the game? I would love to have some extra exp and shiny red boots from the beginning of my adventure. How many DLC's do you plan to add? And how many genders are already implemented to the game? Any chance to become a dragon at some point? One persona could be body-positive black lesbian dragon and the other might be e.g.some king of fragile fairy or elven prince.

Covr; In the game you play a character that is basically a Dragonkindt in shapeshifted form. Shapeshifted forms include dwarf, elf and human. In addition you can assume your dragonkindt form anytime you wish. You are in shapshifted form because of the political climate on Arieyon. Snce Dragonkindt mature rather late sexually you are free to chose the male or femal gender and can with the morphing sliders fashion any sexual identity that is possible between these poles. If the response to the game is good we will be offering DLC. The contents of these DLC's wlll be largely driven by our user base. We will NOT charge anything for these DLCs since part of our mission statement is to keep the cost of fantasy games low and we object to continuously picking the pockets of our loyal patrons.

Do the Dragonkindt grow the male or female genitalia late in life or what? how can they decide their sex late in life?

 

[Bester]

Do the Dragonkindt grow the male or female genitalia late in life or what? how can they decide their sex late in life?

It's called environmental sex determination, sometimes also triggered by social events. Happens in reptiles and fish specifically. It can be dictated by the amount of food, the temperature of water, or the death of a particular dominating male/female, which then has to be quickly replaced, and switching sex will help it. I'd imagine a more complex species could willingly trigger it by faking some environmental threat, like fasting. If not by simply willing it.

 

[JonG]

It's called environmental sex determination, sometimes also triggered by social events. Happens in reptiles and fish specifically. It can be dictated by the amount of food, the temperature of water, or the death of a particular dominating male/female, which then has to be quickly replaced, and switching sex will help it. I'd imagine a more complex species could willingly trigger it by faking some environmental threat, like fasting. If not by simply willing it.

Thanks for the help!