Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

[Tacgnol]

As I said earlier, which campaign is quicker will be irrelevant if characters and ascendancies are gated by campaign still.

People will play the campaign that is required for the build they want to play.

 

[lukaszek]

people will play new stuff because new stuff is usually overpowered lol

 

[Kjaska]

As I said earlier, which campaign is quicker will be irrelevant if characters and ascendancies are gated by campaign still.

People will play the campaign that is required for the build they want to play.

You have to play the new campaign only once on each character to unlock the secondary ascendancies for the account and future leagues. That is if they still intend to implement it like that.

 

[Reinhardt]

I will play new campaign because it have cool coats.

 

[Absinthe]

I will play new campaign because it have cool coats.

But it still won't have pants.

 

[Peachcurl]

I don't get the cool coats thing. What have I missed?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Probably the new physics based rendering with armour types/MTX?

 

[Kjaska]

They are completely re-rigging all of the armours for the new character models. In the trailers you can see shoulder pauldrons having individual physics, separate from the rest of the body armour. I'm 99% certain you'll have all of this in the old campaign as well, since the old character models are going to be retired.

 

[Kjaska]

damn boi, I was gonna skip the events and continue grinding in t3 towers, but it's hard to pass up at least leveling to 50 in each one. I was dreaming of Atzubi invading my ass in mud flats for sooooo long now. GGG reads my mind.

 

[Cyberarmy]

GGG reads my mind.

Same here, I uninstalled middle of the scourge league after realsing they won't add anything worthwile to that league but damn those events looks nice.
Loved endless delve back then, endless delirium looks nice too. Heist one can become boring but it'll be fast to level at least.

 

[Kjaska]

Heist one can become boring but it'll be fast to level at least.

Huck will finally have his moment to shine

Prophecy officially gone next league. Not gonna lie, I am going to miss it. While Perandus lost it's identity over the years, there isn't really anything else that does what Prophecy does. It interacted with the game in multiple different ways, provided an additional layer of RNG and had a distinct theme to it. Navali has a cool visual and narrative design and I would rank her as the NPC with the second greatest set of lines after Izaro.
But I understand why it had to go. Many players disliked the clunky nature of interacting with the mechanic, while trying to blast maps or didn't engage with it at all. It was likely a big nuisance to the programmers who would have to update it for every league as well. It requires it's own UI element, it has a separate trigger which impacts map creation and would often have unintended interactions with new content (ghosted uber elder anyone?). Even the way Silver Coins drop is coded differently from all the other loot in the game.
That said, if they don't replace the source of Rats/Frogs, Tempests, The Twins, Twice Enchanted etc. it's going to be a straight nerf to item quantity. Maybe that is intended.

 

[Tacgnol]

That said, if they don't replace the source of Rats/Frogs, Tempests, The Twins, Twice Enchanted etc. it's going to be a straight nerf to item quantity. Maybe that is intended.

Twice enchanted removal is probably intentional at the very least. They probably don't want most lab enchants as cheap as they currently are after the changes they made a couple of leagues ago.

 

[Perkel]

The only thing that matters is that next patch will have hard mode which nukes most of expansion bloat and removes most of the loot. It is the only way for POE to create pathway out of this mess it is currently.

I really hope they will be brave and also rework defences completely. No split between armor/evasion/energy shield on armors more like D2 defense system is like dodge in POE. Only % reductions are on items and they are not common and hard so even sorceress has to think about health as unlike in POE there is no way to play without getting hit constantly until some hit comes through and kills you creating 1HKO problem.

They are already reworking sockets for POE2 so maybe they will go for defense too.

They other thing about hard mode is that with much less power those tons of hard hitting mobs will stick out like sore thumb so maybe they will figure that maybe less is more and reduce monste desity in hard mode to poe 1.0 level.

 

[Kjaska]

MFing is great. Best part is: I don't even have the inventory space to pick them up, because so much loot dropped before the last floor already:

Spoiler

 

[Kjaska]

The only thing that matters is that next patch will have hard mode which nukes most of expansion bloat and removes most of the loot. It is the only way for POE to create pathway out of this mess it is currently.

I really hope they will be brave and also rework defences completely. No split between armor/evasion/energy shield on armors more like D2 defense system is like dodge in POE. Only % reductions are on items and they are not common and hard so even sorceress has to think about health as unlike in POE there is no way to play without getting hit constantly until some hit comes through and kills you creating 1HKO problem.

They are already reworking sockets for POE2 so maybe they will go for defense too.

They other thing about hard mode is that with much less power those tons of hard hitting mobs will stick out like sore thumb so maybe they will figure that maybe less is more and reduce monste desity in hard mode to poe 1.0 level.

Defences have already been reworked this patch. Every build now has more than one option and often goes for multiple layers. You can see for yourself in the upcoming Gauntlet.

Hard Mode is completely optional and isn't going to change anything for the core PoE gameplay. It's just a mode for players to fuck around with and for GGG to collect player and economy data. Latest info suggests that Hard Mode will be released somewhere before next league.

 

[Gerrard]

You know what else will get "removed" from the game next league? Seismic trap.

 

[Perkel]

Defences have already been reworked this patch. Every build now has more than one option and often goes for multiple layers. You can see for yourself in the upcoming Gauntlet.

it doesn't matter how they adjust it when it has foundational problem.

The problem is that main defense is divided into 3 types and pretty much it makes it 6 with mix. Which means that by default all loot is divided into 6 different piles. That is the foundational loot problem and why there is so much shit loot in POE.

The other issue is about 1HKO deaths that plague POE since start really and basically melee not being usable in game. The 1HKO problem comes from defenses used and how they behave. Armor is useless against big shots, evade sometimes fails, and energy shield is just another pool of quickly regenerating life. Which means that it is actually energy shield that is the most tanky toward big shots not armor or evasion. But that is not really a huge issue. The issue is that game expects you not get hit. What i mean by that is each of those defenses is constructed in such way that best defense is either multiple layers of it which also means not getting hit becomes main defense as those layers are used to not get hit instead of enhance primary defenses.

The problem is obvious when you compare it to Diablo 2 system. In that system defense works as dodge in POE. Armor does not give you mitigation. There are only few sources of pure mitigation in game. The only difference between say barbarian and sorceress is how often they get hit not if they get hit at all. Which means by default game is balanced around idea of you getting hit so regardless if you play barbarian or sorceress you WILL get hit which means that health becomes your secondary defense. There is also block chance but it is basically extension of defense rather its own mechanic.

So the issue quickly comes up here. D2 expects player to get hit. POE expects player to not get hit. In D2 if you get hit and your health is not properly tuned you will die but on other hand all monsters are tuned around idea of them hitting you so they don't deal truckload of damage, it is death by thousand cuts that kills you which means that you have time between getting hit to correct what you are doing in POE if you get hit then you are pretty much dead especially later on.

So this creates scenario in which in POE play as actual melee is shit because monsters are tuned toward you not being hit so they deal massive amount of damage to catch those who will finally get hit. So the death feels like random death rather than mistake you made in how you play. Just RNG death not something you could defend against by playing differntly.

The absolutely top of it is that GGG for some reason feels like they want more player engagement which means even more issues. So you have to dodge those death bombs of monsters. Those encounters never felt right because they are designed around system that is not in POE. Those huge hits will kill you instead of getting good chunk of your health.

So on one hand game expects you to not get hit, then GGG themselves say look fuck your defense here is attack that will kill you either way if you won't dodge it regardless of your defenses.

Then you add on top of it monster mods, absolute shitfest of visual clarity and you have recipe for random RNG deaths that never feel like you earned them by doing something wrong. You earned those deaths because game decided to kill you and you couldn't do anything to counter in that 0.2 second window you had.

 

[Perkel]

that is why i think hard mode will be a thing that will change game. Because all of POE issues will be directly shown there so developers can recognize them and try to fix them.

 

[Divine Blessing]

tell me:

in the year 2021 of the lord, how can an ARPG not have (native) Controller Support?

Path of Gamepad was awful, the still displayed cursor disruptive like an exhibitionist at church service (highlighting his obv not so best part). i ll test AutoHotKeys later, else i wont play this game.

how in the lords year 2021 can an ARPG not have (native) Controller Support? WHY?

 

[Perkel]

pad support is coming according to GGG

 

[Kjaska]

Spoiler

Defences have already been reworked this patch. Every build now has more than one option and often goes for multiple layers. You can see for yourself in the upcoming Gauntlet.

Spoiler

it doesn't matter how they adjust it when it has foundational problem.

The problem is that main defense is divided into 3 types and pretty much it makes it 6 with mix. Which means that by default all loot is divided into 6 different piles. That is the foundational loot problem and why there is so much shit loot in POE.

The other issue is about 1HKO deaths that plague POE since start really and basically melee not being usable in game. The 1HKO problem comes from defenses used and how they behave. Armor is useless against big shots, evade sometimes fails, and energy shield is just another pool of quickly regenerating life. Which means that it is actually energy shield that is the most tanky toward big shots not armor or evasion. But that is not really a huge issue. The issue is that game expects you not get hit. What i mean by that is each of those defenses is constructed in such way that best defense is either multiple layers of it which also means not getting hit becomes main defense as those layers are used to not get hit instead of enhance primary defenses.

The problem is obvious when you compare it to Diablo 2 system. In that system defense works as dodge in POE. Armor does not give you mitigation. There are only few sources of pure mitigation in game. The only difference between say barbarian and sorceress is how often they get hit not if they get hit at all. Which means by default game is balanced around idea of you getting hit so regardless if you play barbarian or sorceress you WILL get hit which means that health becomes your secondary defense. There is also block chance but it is basically extension of defense rather its own mechanic.

So the issue quickly comes up here. D2 expects player to get hit. POE expects player to not get hit. In D2 if you get hit and your health is not properly tuned you will die but on other hand all monsters are tuned around idea of them hitting you so they don't deal truckload of damage, it is death by thousand cuts that kills you which means that you have time between getting hit to correct what you are doing in POE if you get hit then you are pretty much dead especially later on.

So this creates scenario in which in POE play as actual melee is shit because monsters are tuned toward you not being hit so they deal massive amount of damage to catch those who will finally get hit. So the death feels like random death rather than mistake you made in how you play. Just RNG death not something you could defend against by playing differntly.

The absolutely top of it is that GGG for some reason feels like they want more player engagement which means even more issues. So you have to dodge those death bombs of monsters. Those encounters never felt right because they are designed around system that is not in POE. Those huge hits will kill you instead of getting good chunk of your health.

So on one hand game expects you to not get hit, then GGG themselves say look fuck your defense here is attack that will kill you either way if you won't dodge it regardless of your defenses.

Then you add on top of it monster mods, absolute shitfest of visual clarity and you have recipe for random RNG deaths that never feel like you earned them by doing something wrong. You earned those deaths because game decided to kill you and you couldn't do anything to counter in that 0.2 second window you had.

From your shitty english I decipher these main points: Monsters hit too hard and you can't do anything against it as melee.

My main assumption at this point is that your builds simply suck and you're playing the "true ethical melee" where you're hitting monsters one by one with your Heavy Strike or some shit and you also haven't played this league, because in your giant post about how bad defences are you failed to mention: Spell Suppression, Cast When Damage Taken setups, Flasks, Keystones and Curses to name a few options. If you aren't using any of those, then it is no wonder you're getting constantly one-shot. Most actual one-shot abilities in the game are from end-game bosses and are well telegraphed.

Now I will grant you that sometimes the planets will align and you are going to encounter a situation that will kill you. But even at this point you still have the option of logging out or running away. It's simply the price you have to pay for a game that allows you to stack a lot of content on top of each other. D2 has only a couple of monster types in any given area, so it's very feasible to tune all of them accordingly. PoE allows you to encounter a very large variety of enemies at any given moment and makes perfect balance virtually impossible. If you think this approach to design is bad, then I suggest you look for a different game. This is what makes PoE so much more replayable compared to the stale D2 meta of doing Mephisto runs until eternity.

BTW if you think that Hard Mode will make you die LESS, you misunderstood the marketing completely. I suggest you try out the Endless Delve event (still available for the entire week) for the first couple of nodes. THAT is what Hard Mode is going to feel more like.

BTW2: There is currently a popular build available in the game, that is virtually immortal. It's a melee Juggernaut.

 

[Perkel]

From your shitty english I decipher these main points: Monsters hit too hard and you can't do anything against it as melee.

My main assumption at this point is that your builds simply suck and you're playing the "true ethical melee"

Yes, POE had melee in 1.0 version. Back then your only way to defend against mobs was just your lifepool and your main defense + someblock. Back then GGG thanks to small amount of mechanics could properly balance game around it.

The critique here isn't really about 1HKO problem it is how certain mechanics force designers to play loose game and in the end they killed melee, removed completely single target gameplay. 1HKO issue is really just outcome of those mechanics involved.

Now I will grant you that sometimes the planets will align and you are going to encounter a situation that will kill you.

The planets alignment happen way to more times that i would like. I don't have problem with getting killed because i made mistake or i play wrong. I have problem when it feels like completely random deaths because like you said planets aligned and that 1hko went throu all my defenses unblocked and there isn't single thing i can do to build around such cases.

For an example. Why normal mobs in POE do so much more damage than in any other ARPG say compared to diablo ? And i don't mean juiced rare with triple ele. I mean common white mob without ANY juicing. Because players are expected to fight ranged which means don't get hit at all while "melee" is in the name only, just spells with STR requirement. So when mob finally will be able to get close to you it needs to dish out so much damage that you feel threatened. So occasionally you can die. Game is i repeat designed around not getting hit. Which automatically means glass cannons who clear whole screens are the best form of defense. Then there are your layers of defense, then life and at the end your main defense.

Now take Grim Dawn, D2 and pretty much any other ARPG. You can walk into pack of monsters as melee character and expect to walk out of it. Not because you won't get hit (you will !!) but because dying to such situation is mostly based around judgement and how much you can handle at the moment. There is also some leeway when you are in deep shit because health doesn't go down from 100% to 0% in 0.2 second, even at 30% you still feel like you have some buffer before you die. That is because those games are designed around you getting hit. Which means monsters can't deal obscene damage because you would be dying every 30 seconds.

BTW if you think that Hard Mode will make you die LESS, you misunderstood the marketing completely. I suggest you try out the Endless Delve event (still available for the entire week) for the first couple of nodes. THAT is what Hard Mode is going to feel more like.

I think you are the one who misunderstood both me and what hard mode tries to do.

First of i didn't say i will die less in hard mode. I said that hard mode will force designers to look hard at core mechanics and what they do. Visibility in combat, how much health you really need and how to scale it, primary defenses what they do and how they work. Like i said i don't have problem with dying i have a problem when i die randomly with no avenue to correct or get better. If i die because some telegraphed hit hits me i am fine with dying, i am not fine when i can't even see what hit me in first place.

Hard mode is not endless delve where difficulty comes from ever increasing stats of monsters. It is mode that will remove almost all mechanics that you got used to like crafting, easily obtainable gems, wealth of loot, masters, piniatas and so on distilling game to core of what POE is. Chris openly stated as this will be used as test mode for ideas they have to safely test them before bunch of whiners on reddit who only understand "more is better". With this they can have hard look on why for example melee doesn't exist in POE, how their primary defenses are shit, mob density, clarity etc.

The other issue that came up over the years is that loot became shit. That is also the problem they will be trying to deal with in hard mode.

 

[tritosine2k]

Why normal mobs in POE do so much more damage than in any other ARPG say compared to diablo ? And i don't mean juiced rare with triple ele. I mean common white mob without ANY juicing. Because players are expected to fight ranged which means don't get hit at all while "melee" is in the name only, just spells with STR requirement.

...because whether you like it or not PoE is centered around cheese, "hit first" . It was even said explicitly that's supposed to be the balance of things ,the color code denotes how long the mob should linger around. High value target gets on-death effects to linger around sufficiently long so that time constraint is met. If an easily accessible build wipes them out too fast then it's whacked beyond recognition.

Hard mode was just a flex of their developer prowress , you're supposed to believe they can get scarcity work simply by tweaking some mythical tables. :coolstorybro:

 

[Perkel]

They are not adjusting just tables. They are outright removing mechanics. Like crafting. Right now crafting is main way to upgrade your gear because finding anything for your build is practically impossible in later parts of game. Right now it is not know just how much they will remove from game but Chris said that pretty much every expansion will be considered.

In multiple interviews with main leads they know they have issues but the main problem in solving those aren't devs but community they created over time. Just mana rework last time caused them to lose 30% of people. That 30% of people isn't interested in playing game, they are interested in winning and getting currencies which is entirely different thing.

 

[Kjaska]

Spoiler

From your shitty english I decipher these main points: Monsters hit too hard and you can't do anything against it as melee.

My main assumption at this point is that your builds simply suck and you're playing the "true ethical melee"

Yes, POE had melee in 1.0 version. Back then your only way to defend against mobs was just your lifepool and your main defense + someblock. Back then GGG thanks to small amount of mechanics could properly balance game around it.

The critique here isn't really about 1HKO problem it is how certain mechanics force designers to play loose game and in the end they killed melee, removed completely single target gameplay. 1HKO issue is really just outcome of those mechanics involved.

Now I will grant you that sometimes the planets will align and you are going to encounter a situation that will kill you.

The planets alignment happen way to more times that i would like. I don't have problem with getting killed because i made mistake or i play wrong. I have problem when it feels like completely random deaths because like you said planets aligned and that 1hko went throu all my defenses unblocked and there isn't single thing i can do to build around such cases.

For an example. Why normal mobs in POE do so much more damage than in any other ARPG say compared to diablo ? And i don't mean juiced rare with triple ele. I mean common white mob without ANY juicing. Because players are expected to fight ranged which means don't get hit at all while "melee" is in the name only, just spells with STR requirement. So when mob finally will be able to get close to you it needs to dish out so much damage that you feel threatened. So occasionally you can die. Game is i repeat designed around not getting hit. Which automatically means glass cannons who clear whole screens are the best form of defense. Then there are your layers of defense, then life and at the end your main defense.

Now take Grim Dawn, D2 and pretty much any other ARPG. You can walk into pack of monsters as melee character and expect to walk out of it. Not because you won't get hit (you will !!) but because dying to such situation is mostly based around judgement and how much you can handle at the moment. There is also some leeway when you are in deep shit because health doesn't go down from 100% to 0% in 0.2 second, even at 30% you still feel like you have some buffer before you die. That is because those games are designed around you getting hit. Which means monsters can't deal obscene damage because you would be dying every 30 seconds.

BTW if you think that Hard Mode will make you die LESS, you misunderstood the marketing completely. I suggest you try out the Endless Delve event (still available for the entire week) for the first couple of nodes. THAT is what Hard Mode is going to feel more like.

I think you are the one who misunderstood both me and what hard mode tries to do.

First of i didn't say i will die less in hard mode. I said that hard mode will force designers to look hard at core mechanics and what they do. Visibility in combat, how much health you really need and how to scale it, primary defenses what they do and how they work. Like i said i don't have problem with dying i have a problem when i die randomly with no avenue to correct or get better. If i die because some telegraphed hit hits me i am fine with dying, i am not fine when i can't even see what hit me in first place.

Hard mode is not endless delve where difficulty comes from ever increasing stats of monsters. It is mode that will remove almost all mechanics that you got used to like crafting, easily obtainable gems, wealth of loot, masters, piniatas and so on distilling game to core of what POE is. Chris openly stated as this will be used as test mode for ideas they have to safely test them before bunch of whiners on reddit who only understand "more is better". With this they can have hard look on why for example melee doesn't exist in POE, how their primary defenses are shit, mob density, clarity etc.

The other issue that came up over the years is that loot became shit. That is also the problem they will be trying to deal with in hard mode.

I'll really need to see some PoB of one of your builds at this point. You're claiming now that you're getting one-shot by a pack of normal monsters, which should only be possible if your build is very bad.

Regardless, if the gameplay you want is to single-click each individual mob in a pack one by one, then PoE is simply not for you. You claim all other ARPGs have it right with the mob damage balance. Just play those then. Maybe in the very beginning, when nobody knew how to make good builds, your vision of the game was still "viable", but people figured out how to make very strong characters and GGG is compensating for that by increasing the difficulty in the top end-game scenarios. You can still play weaker builds, just don't expect to do red maps without significant investment.

On the topic of Hard Mode: I wouldn't hold out for that. Your vision of the game will never become the norm. GGG will use it collect data. But if you're expecting another significant overhaul to the primary defences right after the big one we just had(which was a big success), you're going to be disappointed. If anything, some of the defensive options are going to get a nerf.