Path of Exile is a MAJESTIC incline

[Kjaska]

Spoiler

From your shitty english I decipher these main points: Monsters hit too hard and you can't do anything against it as melee.

My main assumption at this point is that your builds simply suck and you're playing the "true ethical melee"

Yes, POE had melee in 1.0 version. Back then your only way to defend against mobs was just your lifepool and your main defense + someblock. Back then GGG thanks to small amount of mechanics could properly balance game around it.

The critique here isn't really about 1HKO problem it is how certain mechanics force designers to play loose game and in the end they killed melee, removed completely single target gameplay. 1HKO issue is really just outcome of those mechanics involved.

Now I will grant you that sometimes the planets will align and you are going to encounter a situation that will kill you.

The planets alignment happen way to more times that i would like. I don't have problem with getting killed because i made mistake or i play wrong. I have problem when it feels like completely random deaths because like you said planets aligned and that 1hko went throu all my defenses unblocked and there isn't single thing i can do to build around such cases.

For an example. Why normal mobs in POE do so much more damage than in any other ARPG say compared to diablo ? And i don't mean juiced rare with triple ele. I mean common white mob without ANY juicing. Because players are expected to fight ranged which means don't get hit at all while "melee" is in the name only, just spells with STR requirement. So when mob finally will be able to get close to you it needs to dish out so much damage that you feel threatened. So occasionally you can die. Game is i repeat designed around not getting hit. Which automatically means glass cannons who clear whole screens are the best form of defense. Then there are your layers of defense, then life and at the end your main defense.

Now take Grim Dawn, D2 and pretty much any other ARPG. You can walk into pack of monsters as melee character and expect to walk out of it. Not because you won't get hit (you will !!) but because dying to such situation is mostly based around judgement and how much you can handle at the moment. There is also some leeway when you are in deep shit because health doesn't go down from 100% to 0% in 0.2 second, even at 30% you still feel like you have some buffer before you die. That is because those games are designed around you getting hit. Which means monsters can't deal obscene damage because you would be dying every 30 seconds.

BTW if you think that Hard Mode will make you die LESS, you misunderstood the marketing completely. I suggest you try out the Endless Delve event (still available for the entire week) for the first couple of nodes. THAT is what Hard Mode is going to feel more like.

I think you are the one who misunderstood both me and what hard mode tries to do.

First of i didn't say i will die less in hard mode. I said that hard mode will force designers to look hard at core mechanics and what they do. Visibility in combat, how much health you really need and how to scale it, primary defenses what they do and how they work. Like i said i don't have problem with dying i have a problem when i die randomly with no avenue to correct or get better. If i die because some telegraphed hit hits me i am fine with dying, i am not fine when i can't even see what hit me in first place.

Hard mode is not endless delve where difficulty comes from ever increasing stats of monsters. It is mode that will remove almost all mechanics that you got used to like crafting, easily obtainable gems, wealth of loot, masters, piniatas and so on distilling game to core of what POE is. Chris openly stated as this will be used as test mode for ideas they have to safely test them before bunch of whiners on reddit who only understand "more is better". With this they can have hard look on why for example melee doesn't exist in POE, how their primary defenses are shit, mob density, clarity etc.

The other issue that came up over the years is that loot became shit. That is also the problem they will be trying to deal with in hard mode.

I'll really need to see some PoB of one of your builds at this point. You're claiming now that you're getting one-shot by a pack of normal monsters, which should only be possible if your build is very bad.

Regardless, if the gameplay you want is to single-click each individual mob in a pack one by one, then PoE is simply not for you. You claim all other ARPGs have it right with the mob damage balance. Just play those then. Maybe in the very beginning, when nobody knew how to make good builds, your vision of the game was still "viable", but people figured out how to make very strong characters and GGG is compensating for that by increasing the difficulty in the top end-game scenarios. You can still play weaker builds, just don't expect to do red maps without significant investment.

On the topic of Hard Mode: I wouldn't hold out for that. Your vision of the game will never become the norm. GGG will use it collect data. But if you're expecting another significant overhaul to the primary defences right after the big one we just had(which was a big success), you're going to be disappointed. If anything, some of the defensive options are going to get a nerf.

 

[Perkel]

I'll really need to see some PoB of one of your builds at this point. You're claiming now that you're getting one-shot by a pack of normal monsters, which should only be possible if your build is very bad.

I am not talking about your sparged build on POB grinding currency for weeks to buy it. I am talking about 95% of builds people play with who don't even have few ex on them. If you don't see that you have to use multiple layers of defense to live in poe rather than focusing on one due to regressions then there is nothing to talk with you about. Glass cannon subject is widely known in poe circles for years as well as clear screen meta.

Moreover your "who needs melee" is completely retarded. The reason why single target sucks in POE is because around 2.0 they produced one of the worst patches ever which causes mob density per map to increase dramatically. Combined with high damage but die in one hit mobs killed actual melee in POE.

 

[Kjaska]

Don't be shy, I won't roast you, I promise. Claiming some fundamental insight of the game's flaws and not providing any actual proof of game mastery is cucked. I'm currently looking at a day 3 snapshot of a lvl94 Slayer in SSFHC who is using Shield Crush as his main 6-L. He had no access to trade, his build is using common uniques and self crafted rares. 95% of build people play aren't melee, that is true. Because the melee gameplay you want is simply not fun for them. I never said "who needs melee", stop putting words in my mouth. I said your vision of the game (which I think is shared by very few people) is never coming back. Go play Grim Yawn and let PoE be PoE.

Until you prove to me that you can actually make a decent build, I'm going to assume that you're just a very bad player and that all of your "criticism" is based on YOU failing instead of the game being "too hard".

 

[Gerrard]

I think you are the one who misunderstood what hard mode tries to do.

No, that's 100% you.

You can walk into pack of monsters as melee character and expect to walk out of it.

Have you tried getting good?

 

[Perkel]

95% of build people play aren't melee, that is true. Because the melee gameplay you want is simply not fun for them.

You are halfway there. Now explain why melee isn't fun in POE.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Now explain why melee isn't fun in POE.

Because there is not much "hit feeling" or "oomph" on melee skills. None of them satisfy your inner barbarian really.
Especially after playing Grim Dawn where every hit has some weight and kind of feedback.

 

[Kjaska]

95% of build people play aren't melee, that is true. Because the melee gameplay you want is simply not fun for them.

You are halfway there. Now explain why melee isn't fun in POE.

Because single clicking individual mobs feels very bad, when you can blow up an entire pack.

 

[Peachcurl]

Because pack size is

 

[Kjaska]

How can regular base pack size be already too high for you retards? Just go fucking play Dark Souls or some shit. Live out your fantasy of going toe to toe with monsters and your 5-inch dagger, as From Software envisioned.

Alternative you could make a good build, that can actually tank a white pack, but my guess it's beyond your capabilities, seeing how a 3ex budget is already beyond your wildest dreams.

 

[Peachcurl]

NO, I will bravely continue to make builds that are horrible.

Like this guy:



(srsly, dual wielding a pistol and a shotgun?)

 

[lukaszek]

How can regular base pack size be already too high for you retards?

go home, you are drunk

 

[T. Reich]

How can regular base pack size be already too high for you retards? Just go fucking play Dark Souls or some shit. Live out your fantasy of going toe to toe with monsters and your 5-inch dagger, as From Software envisioned.

Funny thing, that's exactly what I did when I dropped POE after almost 7 years of non-stop play.
I played DS 1-3 back-to-back 4 times over, trying out different things and having immense fun.
Turns out, playing a game that has actual gameplay is immensely fun, who would've thought...

 

[Kjaska]

I'm glad you were able to find a game you like after being trapped for 7 years in one that had no gameplay.

 

[HeyCheckOutHowHardICanPee]

The speed genie doesn't go back in the bottle with grindan games.

 

[tritosine2k]

If i die because some telegraphed hit hits me i am fine with dying, i am not fine when i can't even see what hit me in first place.

Even this "telegraphed attack" thing looks like a brutal euphemism and I already tried to diminish like two of those in the same page.

 

[Perkel]

Betrayal was the worst in that aspect when it released. Green shit, green enemies, green smoke, green degens, green attacks and in middle of that hard bosses who can insta kill you because you "didn't avoid telegraphed attack yooo".

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Hey look, Perkel has buried a couple real points he read somewhere along with a stream of consciousness wall of text that claims great insight but does not demonstrate any. Weird.

Anyway, as an actual casual SSF player I can tell you, we play melee. We play ranged. We play spells. We play SSF versions of shitty meta builds, we play SSF versions of shitty shit builds, and everything in between. We also don't care about what twitch streamers are doing because we play games, not watch them.

This whole hard mode thing sounds like a load of BS that will be a gimmick that will be dropped in one season, but I'd be fine with being wrong there.

My perspective on POE's development has been that it's pretty scattershot, although scourge came with some QOL changes everyone's wanted for a long time, especially currency dropping stacked. We'd all like a bit less clutter on screen, honestly.

The whole Krangler/Krangleverse is a shitty league mechanic, overall I'd say scourge is a dud, but since it came with a reworked skill tree and QOL changes it's still the most fun I"ve had in POE for a while.

I found harvest to be too much hassle, although the rewards tended to be very good. Still though, it sucked the joy right out of me to have to interact with it. I loved delerium, (I played a cyclone juggernaught build that was just a pleasure the whole time).

This is the first league I've made any real progress in the endgame, I've got like 6 watchstones socketed in my atlas and starting to do yellow maps. I'm playing a minion build, basically I took a quick look over some various builds on the various sites that supposedly did well in scourge, looked over one that seemed like it could work in SSF, and then just went off in my own direction from there. Either minions are OP or I stumbled across some lucky equipment, because this is the easiest POE has ever been for me. Bosses just melt, I just run through maps, summon skeletons, corpses, and cast offerings and curses. I went with the necromancer ascendency because +2 to minion skills is huge.

My witch is shockingly survivable. Due to so many minion nodes being on the right side of the tree, I ended up taking a lot of strength and armor stuff, and now my physical damage reduction is like 35%, which may be low for actually good players, but on top of my 40% block and 6kEHP this is the tankiest character I've had.

I suspect the vast majority of PoE players are like me, we don't even think about the ladder or races or what have you, we just want to make a character that kills teh dudes faster than our last character, preferably in an interesting way.

 

[Perkel]

Anyway, as an actual casual SSF player I can tell you, we play melee. We play ranged. We play spells. We play SSF versions of shitty meta builds, we play SSF versions of shitty shit builds, and everything in between. We also don't care about what twitch streamers are doing because we play games, not watch them.

I mean the fact that you play SSF instead of standard means you see SSF being more enjoyable despite having LESS mechanics to play with. Which means your retarded argument is in my favor not against it.

SSF severely improves POE loot issue by virtue of removing cheat shop in which you can get upgrade you won't find in next 50hours for 1C. It also means that you actually try to play game instead of cheesing out game with starter build amassing quickly wealth and then farming T13-15 maps with your "true" build. You play with what you find.

Unfortunately SSF doesn't help with retarded designs of other things. Which means it is improvement over base game but not step enough to save it and this is where hard mode comes in. It seems to directly adress several key issues. Loot issue, bloat of expansion content, crafting completely outdoing any found gear and bunch of other things. I don't remember exactly if they will adjust monster health but i remember co-lead in one of interviews saying that they would want to do that for such league (to resolve AOE vs single target issue) though it was long time ago. Moreover if what Chris said about loot scarsity in hard mode then trading actually might be good mechanic here as from what he said he doesn't expect that even middle grade uniques will drop in that league due to such low chances.

 

[Perkel]

I mean it is not like GGG doesn't know that, for example last change with mana was right step but again despite Chris "we don't care if we lose some players" very quickly turned into "wait guys you missed context ! 30% of you quit what happened ?" So they are in pretty typical place for developer who grew out of being salf made indie studio that wants to make good game they want to play into middle sized developer who would want to not fire people and for their game to grow and they are willing to compromise on their vision in key aspect. Naturally the longer it goes the more key areas are compromised and game ultimately fails as original people quit game and zoomers will find soon some new game to play.

Either way for those who didn't see what hard mode is about. It is pretty clear that there will be 2 POEs now. Base one for zoomers and directors cut. "Hard mode" is just moniker to make zoomers don't even consider starting it so they won't be crying on various boards about changes. I mean it is not officially announced and things could have changed in that time but it seems he was pretty sure what he was doing and he said that this was something they were working on for a long period of time and grew out of their own developers.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Anyway, as an actual casual SSF player I can tell you, we play melee. We play ranged. We play spells. We play SSF versions of shitty meta builds, we play SSF versions of shitty shit builds, and everything in between. We also don't care about what twitch streamers are doing because we play games, not watch them.

I mean the fact that you play SSF instead of standard means you see SSF being more enjoyable despite having LESS mechanics to play with. Which means your retarded argument is in my favor not against it.

SSF severely improves POE loot issue by virtue of removing cheat shop in which you can get upgrade you won't find in next 50hours for 1C. It also means that you actually try to play game instead of cheesing out game with starter build amassing quickly wealth and then farming T13-15 maps with your "true" build. You play with what you find.

Unfortunately SSF doesn't help with retarded designs of other things. Which means it is improvement over base game but not step enough to save it and this is where hard mode comes in. It seems to directly adress several key issues. Loot issue, bloat of expansion content, crafting completely outdoing any found gear and bunch of other things. I don't remember exactly if they will adjust monster health but i remember co-lead in one of interviews saying that they would want to do that for such league (to resolve AOE vs single target issue) though it was long time ago. Moreover if what Chris said about loot scarsity in hard mode then trading actually might be good mechanic here as from what he said he doesn't expect that even middle grade uniques will drop in that league due to such low chances.

Lol what are you even talking about? That's what I mean, you read something or had a genuine real idea (Path of exile is far from perfect, there are many flaws) and then all the sudden you're randomly on some weird specifics (The cash shop is the cheat shop and most players don't play the game right) and insisting that somehow, all this means your walls of stupid text were right. On top of that you're speculating based on dev chatter while trying to get in digs against some theoretical other people that think hard mode will/should work differently than the version in your head.

SSF has the same mechanics as non ssf, unless you count trade outside the game as a mechanic I guess. I just don't want to spend my time doing that. If someone else wants to play 24 hours straight on their league start build they got off some meta build list, to gather up 5 exalts to fund some other build, and then get carried to endgame, it has no effect on me at all. Also, you're agreeing with my argument and calling it retarded at the same time. I don't even know what to make of that.

 

[Perkel]

SSF has the same mechanics as non ssf, unless you count trade outside the game as a mechanic I guess.

Are you actually retarded ? There is reason why SOLO SELF FOUND is named like that. You are denser than granite.

 

[lukaszek]

as far as im concerned they should drop every extra feature but delve and corrupted areas. I used to be yuge fan of ziggurat runs but in the end its just meh. Also enemies now seem quite tanky there?
Not sure whats worst in my book: heist or tower defense. From what I saw heists got quite a fan base so I guess it is to stay?

Too bad they wont just keep endless delve around. Gathering fuel is not enjoyable.

 

[Kjaska]

Either minions are OP or I stumbled across some lucky equipment, because this is the easiest POE has ever been for me.

Summoner has been the go to build for cheap power for a long time now. It's a safe bet for a starter most of the time, but was overshadowed by Seismic Trap this league. It's still very strong, but fell out of meta due to Syndicate Operatives nerf. I'm looking forward to trying out Skelly Mages, if I get a good corruption/krangle on one of my Fleshcrafters.

I mean the fact that you play SSF instead of standard means you see SSF being more enjoyable despite having LESS mechanics to play with.

OMG you're one of the weird standard only players. Now I see why you have such retarded takes. SSF league has more mechanics than standard, since you don't get the current league mechanic until the league after. Sometimes you don't get it at all, like with Ultimatum or Synthesis.

Spoiler

SSF severely improves POE loot issue by virtue of removing cheat shop in which you can get upgrade you won't find in next 50hours for 1C. It also means that you actually try to play game instead of cheesing out game with starter build amassing quickly wealth and then farming T13-15 maps with your "true" build. You play with what you find.

Unfortunately SSF doesn't help with retarded designs of other things. Which means it is improvement over base game but not step enough to save it and this is where hard mode comes in. It seems to directly adress several key issues. Loot issue, bloat of expansion content, crafting completely outdoing any found gear and bunch of other things. I don't remember exactly if they will adjust monster health but i remember co-lead in one of interviews saying that they would want to do that for such league (to resolve AOE vs single target issue) though it was long time ago. Moreover if what Chris said about loot scarsity in hard mode then trading actually might be good mechanic here as from what he said he doesn't expect that even middle grade uniques will drop in that league due to such low chances.

Stop making absolute statements about a mode you have no experience in. You are clearly talking out of your ass and calling trade a "cheat shop" and starter builds "cheese" doesn't make you sound smart, it makes you sound like a bitter retard loser. Have you ever made it into a t15 once?

original people quit game

I can't wait for you to do that. If anything, the fact that PoE still has a grip on you even though you claim to have seen through all of its flaws, is a testament to the great design of the game.

they were working on for a long period

They had 3 people make some tweaks over a couple of Saturdays. It's like you read or watch something. Your brain doesn't parse most of it. Then suddenly you latch onto a piece of information and run wild with your own retarded interpretation of it without listening to the context. There won't be 2 PoE's. Hard Mode is going to be a toggle, just like SSF is. It will have all of the same game mechanics as regular PoE minus whatever they turn off for research and loot reduced by 90%.

Nobody is going to play it as their main mode except maybe for a community event or for a couple hours of masochistic fun.

Not sure whats worst in my book: heist or tower defense. From what I saw heists got quite a fan base so I guess it is to stay?

You don't have to engage with either. It's not like a Martyr Ghost fucking you up without warning in a map or a lucky Abaxoth spawn. In fact, you don't have to engage with most mechanics, if you so desire. The only issue I have with overlapping mechanics is when Expedition spawns in a map I am trying to maximize my Nightmare shifts in. That is more of an issue of the standard league mechanic hotkey 'V' being overloaded.

I gave up on Endless Delve after reaching lvl80. Granted I originally planned to only play until 50 and it turned out more fun than I expected, but the last couple of levels felt like a chore. It simply lacks the variety compared to the Atlas.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

SSF has the same mechanics as non ssf, unless you count trade outside the game as a mechanic I guess.

Are you actually retarded ? There is reason why SOLO SELF FOUND is named like that. You are denser than granite.

Yes, for saying that closing path of exile and starting a web browser, going to poe.trade or whatever, and buying shit is not an in game mechanic. When playing the game, SSF is the same as non SSF, the only difference is the no trading. It has the same mechanics in the GAME which is obviously what people are talking about when they talk about the game. And I don't see why you don't play SSF if you hate trade and meta builds so much.

This is like saying hardcore mode has fewer mechanics and is simpler than softcore, because in softcore there's the additional "mechanic" of playing after your character has died. Actually, going by the conversation so far, I'm assuming you'll call me retarded for not thinking hardcore mode is simpler than softcore.

Most likely, if I end up rolling a second character it won't be SSF, so I can share my stash and use all the weird shit I found with my first character. Usually I do this every league, but that's usually because my league starter ends up sucking.

I assume when Perkel said standard he means non ssf league, not actual standard, but who knows.


So, this summoner is the highest level/highest map completion I've ever had, and I'm starting to run into mechanics that are either new to the atlas or I never got to before.

I do have a few questions regarding summoner builds, I've been mostly winging it and it's turned out well, but I'm sure there are some things I missed.

First question, which of the following summoning skills should be on my five link? I have 8 zombies, 10 skellies (currently in the 5 link) and 3 spectres, who are the apes that give frenzy charges. The skeletons seem to have the best damage of the bunch, and their low health doesn't really matter that much since they're temporary anyway.

Secondly, what support gems should I be using? I have multistrike, melee damage, minion damage, and summon phantasm on my skeletons currently. I'm also not clear on whether the summoned phantasms are affected by the supports, although only one of them would even apply since phantasms are ranged.

 

[Perkel]

as far as im concerned they should drop every extra feature but delve and corrupted areas. I used to be yuge fan of ziggurat runs but in the end its just meh. Also enemies now seem quite tanky there?
Not sure whats worst in my book: heist or tower defense. From what I saw heists got quite a fan base so I guess it is to stay?

Too bad they wont just keep endless delve around. Gathering fuel is not enjoyable.

That seems to be idea with hard mode. Drop fluf and leave core of game and work on that core trying to fix underlying issues and then slowly add up to it stuff but first making sure that it doesn't produce unintended consequences or moves game into direction when it becomes worse despite some fast short therm gains.

There aren't many interviews about hard mode but from what i have seen if nothing changed then it will be pretty much campaign + mapping nothing else. At least for initial release.

I really hope there will be no ascendancies. In my top 10 list of POE mistakes that is easily the first.

Speaking of which it reminds me a lot when POE had two different league mechanics for softcore and hardcore.

You are clearly talking out of your ass and calling trade a "cheat shop" and starter builds "cheese" doesn't make you sound smart, it makes you sound like a bitter retard loser.

everything you need to know about user in one sentence

You claim to have superior knowledge and experience and yet you are to provide even one logical argument to points raised by me.

Then suddenly you latch onto a piece of information and run wild with your own retarded interpretation of it without listening to the context. There won't be 2 PoE's

Literally in interview Chris says that. It is your overinterpretation of my words that i said there will be some two separate clients or some shit, it was clear from interview it will be check like SSF but i guess you didn't watch interview and you didn't know context which is again explained by your retardation.