Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Haplo]

You know there is an insanely good Glaive available lategame.

I'd not say it's insanely good. It's decent and has a really nice buff (but you can use that keeping it as a secondary arm). It's... medium. Quite a lot weaker then the best greataxes, fauchards, heavy flail, bastards, longswords, elven curved blade, estoc, even falcata if you have the 2nd DLC.
Also 20/x3 criticals suck for teamwork combos.

4d6 elemental/holy damage, +5 enchantment and a phenomenal long-lasting party buff spell for free?

How the fuck is that medium bro

I don't even use those teamwork critical feats, so meh on that one

Yeah, the buff is pretty great, but you can use the buff without actually using the glaive. It's 4d6 vs evil enemies only.. and you don't fight many evil enemies in the end game after you find it. So more often its 2d6. That doesn't get multiplied on (rare) crits. It's a decent enough weapon... but a rather poor damage-dealing one overall, comparing to what else is available.

 

[Sykar]

You don't really sacrifice that much. 1 caster level isn't a lot. And SR is rarely an issue in Kingmaker. You gain like 13 AC. Actually more like 18 if lawfull good due to the monk exclusive robes. Also a free feat (possibly skipping prerequisites for example for Crane Style, if you like to swing a weapon sometimes) and better saves.

I still do not see the point delaying spells by an entire level just to turn a terrible melee class into an at best a mediocre one.

I see the point of turning a wet tissue paper glass cannon into a moderately survivable one - if the price is a mere one level.

That level does nothing to change that really. Still mediocre HP, AC does nothing vs spells and other AoE, basically just an at best noticeable but not overwhelming buff to AC. I'd rather get important spells much faster, as well as having a better chance to break through enemy SR and having buffs and debuffs last longer.

 

[Seari]

AC doesn't matter unless you stack it so that monk level is pointless.

 

[Thonius]

Unless you're playing on Hard you can make any combo of classes and have success( unless 100% retarded class combos such as picking every class in the game).

 

[Yosharian]

AC doesn't matter unless you stack it so that monk level is pointless.

Yep. Exactly right.

 

[Thonius]

Where the fuck Pathfinder: Module X announcement???
New meta gent's!

Spoiler

 

[Sykar]

Since I have finally restarted with the crafting mod, whom should I give the crafting feats, me playing a Conjurer? Is it wise to have one or more crafting feats on him or relegate them to companions, not using any mercs by the way and not planning to.

 

[Yosharian]

Where the fuck Pathfinder: Module X announcement???
New meta gent's!

Spoiler

....what?

 

[Haplo]

Since I have finally restarted with the crafting mod, whom should I give the crafting feats, me playing a Conjurer? Is it wise to have one or more crafting feats on him or relegate them to companions, not using any mercs by the way and not planning to.

I don't think there is a universal answer to that. On a character with expendable feat slots? On a character with spells you want to scribe/enchants wands with? On sidekicks, because the main char should be a murder machine? It's up to your priorities, really.

 

[Haplo]

AC doesn't matter unless you stack it so that monk level is pointless.

Yep. Exactly right.

Em, not entirely sure about that. In an enemy engages a glass cannon OR some enemy archers target him, it makes a world of difference whether he's hit by first attack or by all 4. And whether enemy crits are guaranteed or unlikely after the first strike.

The difference is dying in the first round of being targeted and maybe surviving 3 - and hopefully getting support in the meantime.

 

[Yosharian]

AC doesn't matter unless you stack it so that monk level is pointless.

Yep. Exactly right.

Em, not entirely sure about that. In an enemy engages a glass cannon OR some enemy archers target him, it makes a world of difference whether he's hit by first attack or by all 4. And whether enemy crits are guaranteed or unlikely after the first strike.

The difference is dying in the first round of being targeted and maybe surviving 3 - and hopefully getting support in the meantime.

Unless you have enough AC to reach a certain threshold, it's useless

 

[Haplo]

But the threshold is not fixed... and is actually quite flexible, depending on enemy AB (which can be debuffed), as well as what buffs you can access/care to cast (Blur, Mirror Image, GI, Displacement?).

 

[Yosharian]

But the threshold is not fixed... and is actually quite flexible, depending on enemy AB (which can be debuffed), as well as what buffs you can access/care to cast (Blur, Mirror Image, GI, Displacement?).

Does your AC matter with those spells up?

 

[Haplo]

IMO yes, it does. There is a huge difference between Mirror Image going down in 1 round and lasting till the end of its duration.

 

[Sykar]

For crossblooded sorcerer builds, apart from the obvious Orc/Dragon combination, anything else which works well together?

 

[Daidre]

Arcane bloodline is so good that it is almost mandatory for pure caster.

Elemental + Dragon is interesting - elemental arcana allows to change any damage spell to chosen element and get Dragon bonus damage on all spells. Lots of profit for DC with 2 Elemental Focus and 2 Evocation School focus feats.

 

[Reinhardt]

So what is full feat package for DEX dueling sword?

 

[Shadenuat]

19 levels of Vivisectionist.

I ran up to level 20 of random Unfair dungeon with an Aldori/Duelist. It doesnt do damage much and doesn't really tank until very, very late into feats and having good items too.

I on purpose took some shitty feats to qualify for new Swordlord. I looked upon new Swordlord and weeped. What a shit on a stick class.

I admit I forgot a bit all my characters from 3 runs but here is what I played so far in random dungeon (might have forgotten a few characters):

- Aldori Def/Duelist - COULDNT GET INT ITEM FOR 12 LEVELS JESUS. Interesting, but feels like a Sword Saint for the poor people. Saint + Duelist otoh looks good.

- Monk 1/Blight Druid (18 DEX 20 WIS Amulet of Agile Fists) - great, while DC for Blight is low, there are a lot of animals and fey so free stun for them and -saves for everyone else was ok. The winner is the elemental form, which gives immunity to crits and sneak. Unfair-tankable. It really means that if you want to tank, you can just take Druid with a pet (like DOTTW) and have 2 tanks in party for free. Oh and you also can tar pool/sirocco things.
- Druid DOTTW Aasimar with Martial weapon proficency and Bow skills, Focus in Transmutation x2 - really bow is not much worth it, but Dart with 20 ft. is really poor. Better use previous build with Amulet of Agile Fists.
Don't forget to take animal companion with Bite attack ffs.

- Paladin/Slayer (TWF Shield) - better than just Paladin, but still dies to anything. Paladin spells suck. However I'd like to bring Paladin with Mark of Justice into Spawn of Rovagug fight since he's probably evil.

- Aldori Defender 1/Vivisectionist - did 40% of damage of all party per run.

- Freeboter 1/Bard 7/Eldritch Knight with 20 DEX (bow) - did alright;
- Bard 8/Eldritch Knight with 20 CHA (bow) - honestly didn't do any worse even with 16 DEX but a lot more spells and some can actually stun (spell focus: Evocation);
- Bard/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight (melee, maybe Orc with Falchion, shatter defences) - planned for next run.

- Fire Kineticist - did 30% of damage of all party;
- Water/Frost Kinetic Knight (20 DEX, wanted to use water shield and Arcane Protector, ended up just using holy mace in left hand) - needs Sneak to work, average;
- Monk 1/Rogue 1/Kinetic Knight (with like 7 Intelligence) - planned for next run, dump INT to qualify for Expertise using CON from Knight + crane style feats (although could try TWF but probably not), finesse blade from rogue +sneak, 20 DEX 20 WIS.

- Rogue 3 (Finesse - Elven Curve Blade)/Sword Saint - not as good as Vivisectionist but good.

- Sylvan Sorcerer (Enchant, Conjuration) - fucking broken class jesus.

- Wizard Evoker/Trickster - it's Trickster duh. No particular revelations.

- Arcane Bomber (Spell focus: Illusion, Conjuration) - I am surprised. I did not hate this class at all. Yeah, you're not even 15 BAB, yeah, no cantrips, no extra spell slots. But a) no problems with bombs even without precise bombs, just cast elemental resist on party b) fucking strong 70+ damage bombs on midlevels already c) still enough spells which are massively better than Alchemist spells of course. I locked myself of: Abjuration (no unique spells), Enchant (shit), Necromancy (tricky to pull off anyway); Evocation (I has bombs and Druid can sirocco). What party struggled with I color sprayed, what I couldn't color spray I acid bombed, while also supporting party with Glitterdust, Acid pit, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Phantasmal Killer didn't have enough DC tho (not gnome, and no items in random dungeon).
So if you know 100% what you need, Arcane Bomber is not bad choice, let's call it a B+.

- Sacred Huntsmaster of Shelyn + Luck + Glaive + + Trip feats - did fuckton of damage I was surprised. Cannot though totally substitude for a Cleric.

- Barbarian (Armored Hulk) 1/Cleric of Gorum with Dugath portrait, Strength + Glory, 20 STR, 16 WIS, 12 CHA, Focus Greatswords - Intimidation feat tree. This is not really for special abilities or anything, but for spells. You get Enlarge, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Righteous Might as Domain spells and Extend various good buff spells. And you get Transformation and Legendary Proportions.
Did top damage (25%) in 6 ppl party.

All characters were run through 20+ (some to 30+ so up to Wild Hunt) levels of Unfair Rogue-mode Endless Dungeon.

edit.
Mini update: Weary Traveler down on Unfair (ffs movanic devas on level 10):

- Herald Caller/Conjurer/Mystic Theurge: Never play Mystic Theurge, especially in rogue dungeon. Really awful class, you don't get spells you want when you want them.

- Orc Bard/Dragon Disciple (Falchion, Intimidate line): Died like shit until got enough mirror images and armor. Top damage dealer of the party. DD seems broken with its 20 levels and bites.

- Barbarian with throwing weapons: Developers forgot to add Light throwing weapons (Dart should be Light weapon) so no TWF throwing. Never found a single throwing axe. Shit.

- Monk/Rogue/Kinetic Knight 20 DEX 20 WIS - alright but crits get you.

- Sage Sorcerer (Evocation) - it's a Sorcerer, duh.

edit.
Mini update 2.

- Fey Sorc/Thug 1/Arcane Trickster. She attack, she control, she make everyone scared (Weapon focus: Ray + Dazzling), she has 25 DC Overwhelming Grief early. Pretty cute.

- Flame Warden (Shield Bashing) with Falcata. Flame weapon is 1 minute, very annoying. Dies even in good items. Below average.

- Rogue 1/Saint (Estoc) 9/Duelist 10 Tiefling 20/20 stats. Dies to a sneeze to elemental attacks. Be very careful. Level 1 shoot crossbow. Level 2 shoot cantrips. Then can use weapon. One-shot Unfair Movanic Devas & Traveler with True Strike + Saint things.

- Cleric with Sun and Glory domain. When you want +2 damage against undead/level. You add your level to channel against undead, and Nimbus of Light does flat 1 damage/level to Undead. Activate both, see Unfair skelingtons collapse. Sadly, Nimbus is bugged - it has DC of 11 so no free Blind for you. Glory provides Heroism aura, but it is not a good substitude for a Bard tbh.

- Mad Dog with halberd and smilodon. Is mad dog with smilodon. Top damage dealer of the party.

The important morale of the last party extremely rough run: do not play Unfair without Bard in party. Bard just makes early grind so much easier. You can easily meet mobs with 30AC when your dudes are just reaching their +10 AB. The +2 song +Good Hope is best stuff.

edit.
Mini update 3.

- Mother of Dragons - Scaled Fist/Sorcerer (Dragon)/Dragon Disciple (18 str 18 dex 18 cha). I began run by picking 6 falchions +4 as my boon, sold them and got items for her to pump all stats to 20, as well as bought ring +3 and amulet of ac +2. Almost 40 AC on level 2. Turned out reasonable, not a lot of damage, but good tanking potential. Dragonkind 1 sucks but Dragonkind 2 picks it up. Can solo Unfair rooms in dungeon.
The bites are totally broken. The spells you can use those which do not require being good caster - Enervate, Cloudkill, Waves of Exhaustion, etc.
Important point: natural Dragon Transformation does not cancel spellcasting. Spells shapeshifting does cancel spellcasting.

- Isshin - Paladin 2/Scion 5/Deliverer 10/??? - I am not even sure what I am doing here. A 20 str 20 charisma build. Does good damage.
In the end did some ok damage I guess. Top damage (23% out of 6 members).

- Goemon - Knife Master (Sai) 3/Sensei - I really like this character so far. Decent offtank/damage/support.
Dies like crazy but ok support: Mass True Strike, Mass Barkskin, Mass Restoration (!), Mass Evasion for 3 hours (waaat), Mass Immunities to Poison/Disease... Mass Magic Resist doesn't work tho.

- Byakko the White Fox - a kind fox girl which brings luck (tiefling for horns = ears & tail). Chirurgion. Already F11 that Chirurgion should get Infusion as free feat because you can't even cast protection from elements on party without it anyway. What do they think with when they add all these alternative classes I don't even know.
Instead of damage alchemist, I decided to make support alchemist without fast bombs. I picked every bomb out there including even Curse bombs (different curses stack btw) and used many buffs including Transformation and Dragonkind on pet.

- Shakko the Red Fox - a feisty fox. Earth Sorcerer / Arcane Trickster. Allows transmuting any elemental spell into Acid spell. Very interesting. Quite powerful with Chain Lightning. Could say she killed 4th boss (Captor and Captive).

- Bug(finder) Princess - a lady who liked insects. Fighter 1/Druid Defender with bow. I think Ranger (Favorite enemy: Fey) would be better 1 level. Nothing special, just some crowd control based around Transmutation and Fire (Tar Pool is both transmutation and fire, Sirocco is fire, etc.) and buffs.
Important point of notice: Centipede poison progresses through levels into like DC30. Also, Transformation doubles pet attacks and gives like +9 bab.

 

[Fedora Master]

Armored Hulk with as much DR stacking as possible, viable for tanking? My instincts tell me no.

 

[Yosharian]

Armored Hulk with as much DR stacking as possible, viable for tanking? My instincts tell me no.

The problem with DR is that it doesn't scale. While enemies are hitting harder and harder, your DR remains static. So DR for a tank isn't really impactful in the fights that matter.

You're still a massive ball of HP, of course, but then it's always better to avoid getting hit than it is to absorb damage into a big HP pool. Especially when you consider that a lot of enemies have on-hit debuffs, diseases, poisons, attribute damage, energy drain, etc.

As for Armored Hulk specifically, Heavy Armor proficiency alone doesn't make you a very good tank. The best tanks in Pathfinder have multiple sources of AC, cast their own tanking spells such as Mirror Image, have very good saves in order to avoid getting poisoned, drained, etc...

 

[Haplo]

Armored Hulk with as much DR stacking as possible, viable for tanking? My instincts tell me no.

Generally what Yosharian wrote.

But if you want to try it anyway, you should go with Invulnerable Rager, not Armored Hulk, which is simply the worst Barbarian archetype. Getting Heavy Armor Profi is cheap (just 1 feat/1 level dip), getting an animal companion, stacking DR or getting Uncanny Dodge is more valuable.

 

[Shadenuat]

updated my journal

up there is rumble in stolen lands party who killed 4th boss on Unfair.

And I am hooked on the idea of a mysterious powers of the karate

What did I do: Knife Master (Sai) 3/Sensei, DEX+WIS
What is the problem: without progressing through Sneak, or having enchants on weapons, the damage is suboptomal. lots of attacks, but basic damage is low, and low sneak means trouble with DR.
the survivability, surprisingly, is shitty. That is because I went with 2 sais of course, so no crane wings and so on. Bad items too. no mirror images. no CON. pain.

Anyway, without Mirror Images I simply did not have enough survivability and relied on sneak/invis and friendly healer to resurrect him all the time.

What did I like:
Bard Songs, Lingering song
High dex, high Wis = main thief of the party
And to the good part

14 mass true strikes per day
mass barkskin and high level (handy in rogue dungeon, and frees spell slots)
mass Evasion for 3 hours (wat.)
mass immunity to poison (saves slots)
mass imunity to disease (saves 6 1st level slots and headache). you go into disease level, every monster explodes into 3 diseases. your fox girl is poxed, confused and all the other diseases. sensei: bam, whole party immune. 3 hours.
mass Restoration (Mass! Restoration!)
Mass spell resistance doesn't work, bugged out.
Mass Speed is +40 speed lol. Faster than haste.

there are probably more good mass abilities later, I can into transfering Improved Evasion for example.

So yeah, if I roll next party I am making Sensei again, but you have to create particular party around him I think. dudes who strike hard with big swords, arcane tricksters, pets, and the more the merrier since everyone gets them True Strikes + Song. meanwhile you can skip on some buffs and begin advancing some of the casters sooner as combat casters filling slots with useful spells instead of buffs.

So I think I will try to maybe go with actually using STR, with dex and wis being secondary, and maybe creating a reach weapon or strength/dragon sensei. I also thought about throwing but Darts are not Light weapons and there are no Shuriken. In the end I might end up using some sort of martial or exotic reach weapon, or maybe even try making trip build. still thinking on what to fill 3 levels since bard song maxes out on level 17.

 

[Haplo]

Training nearly complete.

Spoiler

Regular hits:

Crits:

Vital Strike:

...I have trouble understanding why some people seem to think they should multiclass their Sword Saints to do more damage.

 

[Cael]

Training nearly complete.

Spoiler

Regular hits:

Crits:

Vital Strike:

...I have trouble understanding why some people seem to think they should multiclass their Sword Saints to do more damage.

750 damage would near outright murder a great wyrm Gold Dragon from full health. The numbers bloat is insane and retarded.

 

[Shadenuat]

One day Haplo would stop playing sword saints