Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Haplo]

I do think that if the stacking of bite attacks will remain unchanged, the biting tripper might be the strongest martial character. The Sword Saint is certainly weaker. Although it does have the charm of big numbers and is a much better tank early on.

As for incorporating that in other builds... its all about trade-offs. Certainly adding Bite attacks does increase DPS. But Motherless Tiefling might not be the best choice for a MAD, Int reliant char (like the GVS SS you mentioned). Bite attacks without Sneak damage (or with low sneak damage) are nothing to write home about. In order for these bite attacks to land, you want to have an Amulet of Mighty/Agile Fists. So you loose Natural Armor necky early (Vivi can self-buff Barkskin) and Gyronna's Amulet +5 Insight AC and Mirror Images late game. Even if you wear the Cloak of Winter Wolf, your CMB will not be great without dedication (minimum 4 feats) and Vivi mutagen boosts OR full BAB. Like 20 points lower in case of my SS.

By skipping SS 18 you loose the final Arcana - that could be Devoted Blade for a nice damage boost OR Spell Blending with EA mod for nice spells like Echolocation and Sense Vitals.
More importantly by skipping SS 19, you loose Perfect Reflexes - roll 20 on Initiative. Which means you need to be very careful on combat start, as you're often flat-footed and vulnerable. With that feat you could freely charge at enemies and start swinging, now you have to play careful - consequently feel weaker to me.

It's all about trade-offs. It would still be a fine, strong build. But for me, its not worth it.


BTW, GVS is mostly for coolness/wow factor. It's rarely the optimal tactics. Although it can lead to an extension of the nova time. Whether that's worth 3 feats... probably not. But at least its a bit different with them.

 

[glass blackbird]

by the end of the game AC is so obscenely high on enemies that getting them down on the ground is essential for actually hitting them consistently. no amount of potential damage output can compete with that

 

[Thalion]

by the end of the game AC is so obscenely high on enemies that getting them down on the ground is essential for actually hitting them consistently. no amount of potential damage output can compete with that

AC is obscenely high on enemies from the start of the game.

 

[Haplo]

by the end of the game AC is so obscenely high on enemies that getting them down on the ground is essential for actually hitting them consistently. no amount of potential damage output can compete with that

If you're having such trouble hitting, this means you're clearly not using the tools already available (Shatter Defences, bard song, heroism/good hope/Heroic Invocation, flanking, Outflank, Freebooters Bond, Freebooters Bane, Kineticist Magnetic Infusion, Tristan's Touch of Good & the other buff, Brilliant Enchantment & various debuffs).

If you have trouble landing regular attacks, the -5 bites are even less likely to land...

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Explain Kinetic Knight to me. How would you go about a Valerie KK build? Or would you use the standard kineticist for it? Would that be any good anyway on unfair?

 

[ArchAngel]

Explain Kinetic Knight to me. How would you go about a Valerie KK build? Or would you use the standard kineticist for it? Would that be any good anyway on unfair?

Kinetic Knight is nice, I did a full run with Valerie as my KK tank. Not on Unfair. For unfair you probably want full Kineticist instead so she can use her CC abilities when needed (like Deadly Earth) and then switch to "sword" and board.

But if you are going to play below Unfair then KK, focus on Earth and Air (or Fire instead of Air). Water gives you are shield but you are already going to use a real shield but both earth and water are useless vs some enemies like ghosts. You need Air or Fire (touch attack version) for those. Air has better feats and defensive ability.

 

[Haplo]

Explain Kinetic Knight to me. How would you go about a Valerie KK build? Or would you use the standard kineticist for it? Would that be any good anyway on unfair?

Kinetic Knight is nice, I did a full run with Valerie as my KK tank. Not on Unfair. For unfair you probably want full Kineticist instead so she can use her CC abilities when needed (like Deadly Earth) and then switch to "sword" and board.

But if you are going to play below Unfair then KK, focus on Earth and Air (or Fire instead of Air). Water gives you are shield but you are already going to use a real shield but both earth and water are useless vs some enemies like ghosts. You need Air or Fire (touch attack version) for those. Air has better feats and defensive ability.

When you write Air, I think you actually mean Electric? If so, I agree. Air would suck, tho.

She can tank/offtank decently well - below Unfair. For Unfair you'd probably want some Water Kinetic Blade Kineticist or Psychokineticist Monk.

Also she's an absolutely awesome support character. With Electric Magnetic Infusion enemies have -4 AC vs attacks from other party members (but Electric is Touch, so pretty accurate anyway) and the Air Celerity ability allows me to keep my party Perma-Hasted already nearly from the beginning of Act 2 - a first for me! Has far surpassed Linzi in Haste serving efficiency. Plus is on Dazzling duty as usual to keep enemies shaken and enable Shatter Defenses for everyone. This time around deals decent damage too.
Fire would shortcut Dazzling/Dreadful, but I'm picking these feats manually and went for Earth 2nd for the DR and Bowling instead.

I really like her that way, although probably too fragile for Unfair. Nothing some creative multiclassing couldn't fix, I guess.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yes I mean touch attack version of Air since Earth only has physical attack version. Don't mention Psychokineticist when that does not exist in this game.
How did you get perma Haste? it always costs 1 burn to have it last more than 1 round.

 

[Haplo]

What do you mean Psychokineticist doesn't exist?

Yeah, Celerity costs 1 Burn. She has 9 Burn capacity and pretty much nothing else to spend it on (except Defensive power ups)... so she spams it. Well, maybe at level 5-ish it was not enough to last between rests (but I also have Linzi & Octavia), but now at 10 it pretty much is.

 

[ArchAngel]

What do you mean Psychokineticist doesn't exist?

Yeah, Celerity costs 1 Burn. She has 9 Burn capacity and pretty much nothing else to spend it on (except Defensive power ups)... so she spams it. Well, maybe at level 5-ish it was not enough to last between rests (but I also have Linzi & Octavia), but now at 10 it pretty much is.

Ups. I forgot Psychokinetics also exists lol :D

I used her burns to buff up DR from Earth. She could survive a lot of punishment.

 

[Haplo]

Well, she's offtanking in my case, so no need. My main SS is picking the bulk of enemy attention.

 

[Efe]

pick one and get a mercenary for the other

 

[Yosharian]

Mystic Theurge is kinda bad, missing out on an animal companion in favour of domains is bad, take Boon Companion feat and your pet owns

 

[santino27]

Isn't an animal companion supposed to be a suplement/bodyguard, instead of the main "attraction" of a druid?

Animal companions are extremely powerful in early-to-mid game, which is, conversely, when your character is probably the weakest. Between that and the fact that they dramatically improve party encumbrance (their strength counts toward total party carrying weight), it's hard to go wrong with an animal companion.

 

[Delterius]

So what's wrong with a Feyspeaker/Sylvan Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge build? According to the description of animal companions in version 2.0.2, their levels accumulate as long as the class you are leveling is one of those who allow to have a companion (in this case, both Feyspeaker and Sylvan Sorcerer).

TBH you'll be so far behind in your spell level acquisition for the sorcerer I don't feel its worth it. Then again, I don't like playing sorcerers at all because of that.

 

[Delterius]

So what's wrong with a Feyspeaker/Sylvan Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge build? According to the description of animal companions in version 2.0.2, their levels accumulate as long as the class you are leveling is one of those who allow to have a companion (in this case, both Feyspeaker and Sylvan Sorcerer).

TBH you'll be so far behind in your spell level acquisition for the sorcerer I don't feel its worth it. Then again, I don't like playing sorcerers at all because of that.

If playing a pure Feyspeaker, since he actually gets lower levels for the animal companions, is it wiser to choose an additional domain, like Air or Fire?

God no, the animal companion is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Yosharian]

Isn't an animal companion supposed to be a suplement/bodyguard, instead of the main "attraction" of a druid?

Yes, but Smilodon

 

[Delterius]

Even if you don't go Smilodon, an Animal Companion is almost a free party member.

 

[santino27]

So what's wrong with a Feyspeaker/Sylvan Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge build? According to the description of animal companions in version 2.0.2, their levels accumulate as long as the class you are leveling is one of those who allow to have a companion (in this case, both Feyspeaker and Sylvan Sorcerer).

TBH you'll be so far behind in your spell level acquisition for the sorcerer I don't feel its worth it. Then again, I don't like playing sorcerers at all because of that.

If playing a pure Feyspeaker, since he actually gets lower levels for the animal companions, is it wiser to choose an additional domain, like Air or Fire?

Edit: Daidre is right... Feyspeaker gets animal companion at lvl 1 regardless, so only needs boon companion to make up for up to 4 levels in a non-pet class.

So then the question is animal companion or domain, and animal companion will give you more benefit than pretty much any domain.

 

[Daidre]

I don't get it - where did you find info that feyspeaker's pet is weaker than for other archetypes? It has the same progression as any other pure pet class.
Feyspeaker has other cons:
1) Low bab progression like wizards - they are useless in melee.
2) Slower Wild Shape progression - but this is when druid transforms into animal himself.

But none of it affects pet.

 

[Daidre]

Animal domain is interesting option for Druid. You get extra spell slot that is mostly used for summons but delay companion to level 4. And would need to take Boon Companion at level 5.
This turns Feyspeaker into a bit of luggage until lvl 5, when party at its weakest, but potentially better than starting with pet for Druid Conjurer in long run.

 

[Daidre]

I would say pure Feyspeaker or pure Sylvan Sorcerer is better options than trying to mix them into Mystic Theurge. This PrC also takes away from class features on both sides - Druid loses pet and wild shape progression and sorc loses high level bloodline features.
Both are very solid as pure casters.

It takes really long time for Mystic Theurge to shine but with P:K leveling speed it is tricky - Theurge is doomed to spend at its worst ~ 2/3 of the game.

 

[Daidre]

Pet progression is stacking when both classes have pet. Like 3 levels of Sacred Huntmaster (Inquisitor) are nice for any martial pet-owner like ranger to share teamworks feats through class features without losing pet progression.

Main issue with Mystic Theurge that even when combined from 2 pet classes it is not pet class by itself. This PrC is pointless with less then full 10 level and pet loses 10 level too, but Boon Companion feat compensate only 4 and could be taken only once.

Domain spells are decent - Air has Chain Lightning and Water - Stinking Cloud (!). Others are so-so and it is only one spell slot with often trashy spell available. Fireball is nice for Fire domain but high level spells are lacking.

From powergaming view though if domains are attractive enough it is best to go Gozreh (nature goddess) Ecclesitheurge - cleric archetype that gets access to all deity domain spells and can put primary domain spells in non-domain spell slots. With Water (or Air) and Animal domain it gets pet, almost-druid spellbook, channeling and medium bab.

 

[Daidre]

What build? Pure caster druid like?

Most powerful in this bunch is 20 level Gozreh Ecclesitheurge with Water primary and Animal domains. Gets pet on lvl 4 and compensates this with Boon Companion feat on level 5. Access to full clerical healing feats and spells. WIS - based.

Most powerful Druid-caster would be pure level 20 Druid, I would took Animal Domain to get both domain spell slot and pet if a bit later. Similar to cleric with Boon Companion feat on level 5. Archetype is whether Feyspeaker for extra illusion spells and CHA as main stat or Defender of the True World for some melee capability.

Sylvan Sorcerer is one of the best sorcerer bloodlines with almost-free pet without any downsides. All tasty wizard spells but no healing. CHA-based.

In result: pure casters like this are better off without multi-classing and it is all about what spellbook/RP you want - Druid, Sorc or Cleric. And whether you want another cleric in the party.

 

[Haplo]

19 Ecclesi / 1 Monk is good - particularly that they can't wear armor.