Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

Don't know how it works now. But it used to trigger maximum one time per round. Perhaps due to animation limitations. Of course, all enemies pass the saving throw so its 55 damage at best. Which is very underwhelming when you're pumping 500+ damage per round. Also many enemies are immune.

First of all it's 75 damage not 55.

Secondly I never once noticed a limit of once per round so I don't know where you got that from.

The immunity issue isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Haplo]

Don't know how it works now. But it used to trigger maximum one time per round. Perhaps due to animation limitations. Of course, all enemies pass the saving throw so its 55 damage at best. Which is very underwhelming when you're pumping 500+ damage per round. Also many enemies are immune.

First of all it's 75 damage not 55.

Secondly I never once noticed a limit of once per round so I don't know where you got that from.

The immunity issue isn't that big of a deal.

When I tried it in real time, I'd never trigger more then once per round (with a long animation). Granted, it was years ago. Maybe it was patched or works differently in turn based mode

 

[Haplo]

Also, even if immunities weren't a huge deal (plenty of undead and constructs in game), some enemies (like Wilderawn, Jabberwocky, bosses, outsiders, elder elementals) have some Spell Resistance.
Which means it frequently goes poof.

So if you as immunes and resistant enemy groups it is quite a big deal IMO.

 

[Yosharian]

Well agree to disagree on that, I don't consider it to be a big deal, well worth the advantages of being DEX-based.

I will load up Kingmaker tonight and double check the animation thing but I highly doubt that's a thing.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Which is stronger overall: Sylvan Sorcerer or Sword Saint?

Haplo

Yosharian

 

[Yosharian]

Apples and oranges

 

[DragoFireheart]

Apples and oranges

If you had to solo the game which would you choose?

If you had to choose one for a party, which would you choose?

I feel like you're lacking a good arcane caster and tank for the game.

Edit:
If I was going to fight swarms, then obviously the Sorcerer is better.

However, something like Lantern King or Rovagug is probably easier with a Sword Saint.

 

[Haplo]

Eh, both should be solid at solo. Do you prefer to kill things with your sword or hide behind companions + summons and do some CC and/or decisive blows?
Guess Sylvan Sorc is safer solo.

For party its easier choice for me. I consider Octavia a very good Arcane caster, but there is no no good tank. Val is workable but either has no offense or needs a lot of work and time to get off, while being far less tanky overall.

 

[Yosharian]

Apples and oranges

If you had to solo the game which would you choose?

If you had to choose one for a party, which would you choose?

I feel like you're lacking a good arcane caster and tank for the game.

Edit:
If I was going to fight swarms, then obviously the Sorcerer is better.

However, something like Lantern King or Rovagug is probably easier with a Sword Saint.

For solo? Hmm. Hard to say. Sylvan is probably more powerful moment to moment, but the SS build, being more focused around hitting things with a big stick, is going to involve less rest spamming.

I don't really care to comment too much on this because solo doesn't interest me, better to ask someone who is an expert on soloing

 

[DragoFireheart]

Finally the idea that any enemy that's Evil, including Rovagug, will pose a threat to any build that optimizes even a little bit for Smite, is laughable - the bonuses are simply too good. Ok he will land a bit of damage due to his stupid unresistable spell damage, he's still going down, fast.

Which is why I want to do the Paladin splash: bonus to saves via Charisma and Smite Evil.

If there's even a couple of evil enemies worth using smite on (Rovagug, Vordaki), then I think it's worth losing Superior Reflexs and a Magus Arcana (probably Ghost Blade).

Depends on priorities, I guess. Sure, Smite Evil is occasionally strong (but 1 use per rest kinda limits it to a handful of boss fights).
I think personally I'd prefer to prioritize getting Dimension Strike for boss fights. That would not delay other awesome SS class features (Lethal Stance, Bane Blade and others). Although I managed pretty well with neither Smite nor Dimension Strike (did use Arcane Accuracy though - and +9 AB for 1 AP is not bad at all; plus rod quickened True Strike with Vital Strikes).

Superior Reflexes does come very late, almost too late (it helps that I hit level 20 before Pitax Palace in Act 5). But it was as gamechanger for me, when I could stop worrying about rolling Initiative, getting flat-footed and relying only on Mirror Image/summons/running away not to be destroyed. Really changes how bold you can act in combat.

And Ghosts type enemies are among the most common and annoying in later acts.
I've found Ghost Touch very useful.
Well if you have a strong party less of an issue, as nuking (with Stormbolts and Mass Heal) is arguably the best way to dispose of them. Also less important if you do use ECBs and wield Clarity, I guess (though its not guaranteed).

If Perfect Reflexes didn't come so late I'd rate it more highly. SS should be able to get a high enough Initiative to not need it anyways.

 

[Yosharian]

I was very unimpressed with Bane of the Living in practical testing. Plus I don't think your theorycrafting about comparable damage properly takes into account the available buffs, which heavily favour Strength builds.

Then you're testing it wrong, it's effectively another crit multiplier. It's also almost as easy to get as Vanquisher in terms of how quickly you can get it.

And no, the difference from using STR buffs doesn't make enough of a difference to make DEX 'significantly' weaker than STR.

Again, I have done the math. We're talking fairly small differences in damage.

Don't know how it works now. But it used to trigger maximum one time per round. Perhaps due to animation limitations. Of course, all enemies pass the saving throw so its 55 damage at best. Which is very underwhelming when you're pumping 500+ damage per round. Also many enemies are immune.

Spoiler

Conclusion: Bane of the Living's Harm effect is not limited to once per round, and it is calculating caster level from the wielder's character level correctly.

 

[Yosharian]

As for testing versus SR, I have just tested it versus an Astradaemon:

Spoiler

It appears that the SR roll uses the wielder's character level as their modifier to beat enemy spell resistance. So SR is definitely an issue, but it's not a given that enemies will automatically save just because they have a bit of SR. For example, versus this CR16 Astradaemon, a level 16 BOTL wielder would still have a 50% chance of beating their SR. Of course versus tougher mobs like Rovagug, it's a forgone conclusion, the SR will not be beaten. But Rovagug is not a typical mob, bosses have a separate set of strategies that apply to them anyway.

Edit: just done some more testing, you can add to the SR rolls by taking Spell Penetration & Greater Spell Penetration, also Great Dreamer's Smile is a BIS ring for front line damage dealers so it's not too big a deal to switch that from Reg to my MC.

So he could be rolling +26 at endgame, vs Rovagug he'd succeed on a 9 or better, so a 60% chance of success.

Not that it matters because ultimately his job is to tank hits and distract the enemy while still doing good damage. Vanquisher vs BOTL isn't a zero sum game because Vanquisher is already being used by one of my primary damage dealers

To summarise, no DEX-based isn't 'significantly' weaker than STR-based.

 

[Haplo]

It scales off character level now? Interesting.

 

[Yosharian]

Yup, SR is still a pain in the ass though, no doubt. Also elementals are just straight up crit immune so elder ones laugh at it either way.

If only it ignored the 150 damage cap, that would be awesome.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Is Bloodhound any good? Permanent Speed is kinda nice. How does the stacking damage feature work?

 

[Cael]

I remember when the dramaqueens cry about the large numbers of 3.x and praised Cuckfinder when it first came out as something that got rid of the bloat. And now, we have hitting for 90 damage an attack is normal and praised by the same dramaqueens. Truly such whingers are the bane of any game.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

I defeated the Horned bitch aka Baphomet's daughter in two turns... Just then the game literaly teleport my whole squad into my deadly earth + wall sending everyone flying and dying.

Thanks Owlcat.. I love your game... But stop fucking my strats with your stupid story teleport garbage ,
positioning is important so stop doing that shit, at least turn off deadly earth during story shit.



Edit: I did it , survived 3 turns vs Baphomet and even took half of his HP without attacking once lol. Deadly Earth is SILLY

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I defeated the Horned bitch aka Baphomet's daughter in two turns... Just then the game literaly teleport my whole squad into my deadly earth + wall sending everyone flying and dying.

Thanks Owlcat.. I love your game... But stop fucking my strats with your stupid story teleport garbage ,
positioning is important so stop doing that shit, at least turn off deadly earth during story shit.



Edit: I did it , survived 3 turns vs Baphomet and even took half of his HP without attacking once lol. Deadly Earth is SILLY

I understand your pain. I stopped playing because every single encounter kept getting interrupted by cutscenes. It got really old really fast and it destroys the flow of gameplay.

 

[Haplo]

Is Bloodhound any good? Permanent Speed is kinda nice. How does the stacking damage feature work?

Its... serviceable. Pretty decent as far as finessable weapons go. And of course can be gotten very early, which is a solid advantage.

Plus comes Agile, so can save a feat or some rogue levels. Certainly nice on a Dex Eldritch Scion, who is not married to his weapon.

Damage wise inferior to the top options, like Vanquisher, Serpent Prince, Lions Claw, Redeemer or the oversized bastard swords.

 

[kalash19]

ArchAngel FriendlyMerchant .Thanks for your helpful suggestions. It seems my unfair solo build can work now.

Spoiler

https://imgur.com/a/bW7tAKP

 

[Humbaba]

What does more damage overall, dual wielding or two handed weapons, assuming full specialisation on both? Has someone crunched the numbers yet?

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

What does more damage overall, dual wielding or two handed weapons, assuming full specialisation on both? Has someone crunched the numbers yet?

Depends on the build and weapons of course. Let's due ranger since it has spec for both without going for a dex build. Here's an example of apparently similar damage. 18 STR (for easy calculations). No sources of damage bonuses other than STR. Assume the ideal case that you always hit. If not, we can just simply multiply the average damage number by the hit chance to see our conditional average damage. Miss chance is just a chance for 0 damage. For this same reason, we can assume that if a crit happens, you'll automatically confirm. This makes the calculation a lot easier though we can simply add some multiplicative factors if you want to factor in hit chance into the average damage. I will use greatsword and two shortswords as the example since without bonuses it's 2d6 damage for each and the same crit chance. We'll focus on averages here. Standard deviations can be done later if one wishes.

Let's start with no bonuses. Average damage for Greatsword

(0.9)*7+ (0.1)*14 = 7.7 damage

for short sword pair

(0.9)^2*7 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*10.5 + (0.1)^2*14 = 7.7 damage


They're the same damage on average and predictably the same standard deviation. So we'll add in bonuses as we go along and see what happens

Greatsword
2d6 + 6 at 19-20 x2

8 - 18 damage each attack with 16-36 damage on crit for each attack. Average damage on each hit should be

(0.9)*13 + (0.1)*26 = 14.3 damage


Two shortswords
1d6 + 4 at 19-20x2 (main hand)
1d6 at 19-20x2 (off hand)

Each pair of attacks is 6-16 damage. Crit on at least one strike is either 11 - 26 (only main hand crits), 7 - 22 (only off-hand crits), 12-32 (both crit). Average damage for each pair of hits should be

(0.9)^2*11 + (0.9)*(0.1)*18.5 + (0.9)*(0.1)*14.5 + (0.1)^2*22 = 12.1 damage

So Greatsword hear does more damage.

If you take double slice with the shortswords build. Now both weapons are at 1d6+4 damage. So no crits is 10-20 damage, only one hand crit is 15-30, both weapons crit is 20-40 damage. This gives an average damage

(0.9)^2*15 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*22.5 + (0.1)^2*30 = 16.5 damage. So here the shortswords build does more damage assuming you always hit.


Now lets factor in Power attack. With level 1 power attack Greatsword damage is 2d6+9 and we have two shortsword attacks at 1d6+6. As before, we can predict that dual wielding here will do more damage. Similar calculations as before the average damage for greatsword is

(0.9)*16 + (0.1) * 32 = 17.6
(0.9)^2*19 + 2*(0.1)*(0.2)*28.5 + (0.1)^2*36 = 20.88

So more damage in general if you can't miss.



Now if we assume that our hit bonuses are exactly enough to get a 95% hit chance. For example the enemy has 20 AC and you have a modifier of exactly +18 so everything but a 1 is a hit. Now we have to apply a modifier for the second attack for the dual wielding build and we have to redo the calculations to account for this with all bonuses. For the Greatsword,

(0.95)*(0.9)*16 + (0.1)*(0.95)*32 = 17.6*(0.95) = 16.72

The computation for the offhand now changes and becomes more complicated. The main hand is at 95% chance to hit. But the offhand is at 85% chance to hit. So we can add these two factors into the mix. We'll write down the factor for every combination since now the offhand or main hand can miss so we add in the chances of that happening to our average

(0.95)*(0.15)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.95)*(0.15)*0.1*19 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.1)*19 + (0.95)*(0.85) * 20.88 = 18.79385'




Let's lower the hit chance to 50%. The greatsword average damage is

17.6*(0.5) = 9.8

The shortsword does

(0.5)*(0.6)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*20.88 = 9.401

So the lower your hit chance, your average damage is higher with the greatsword. If you have a higher hit chance in general, you'll do more damage dual wielding.

 

[Humbaba]

So classes with full BAB are better off dual wielding?

 

[mediocrepoet]

What does more damage overall, dual wielding or two handed weapons, assuming full specialisation on both? Has someone crunched the numbers yet?

Depends on the build and weapons of course. Let's due ranger since it has spec for both without going for a dex build. Here's an example of apparently similar damage. 18 STR (for easy calculations). No sources of damage bonuses other than STR. Assume the ideal case that you always hit. If not, we can just simply multiply the average damage number by the hit chance to see our conditional average damage. Miss chance is just a chance for 0 damage. For this same reason, we can assume that if a crit happens, you'll automatically confirm. This makes the calculation a lot easier though we can simply add some multiplicative factors if you want to factor in hit chance into the average damage. I will use greatsword and two shortswords as the example since without bonuses it's 2d6 damage for each and the same crit chance. We'll focus on averages here. Standard deviations can be done later if one wishes.

Let's start with no bonuses. Average damage for Greatsword

(0.9)*7+ (0.1)*14 = 7.7 damage

for short sword pair

(0.9)^2*7 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*10.5 + (0.1)^2*14 = 7.7 damage


They're the same damage on average and predictably the same standard deviation. So we'll add in bonuses as we go along and see what happens

Greatsword
2d6 + 6 at 19-20 x2

8 - 18 damage each attack with 16-36 damage on crit for each attack. Average damage on each hit should be

(0.9)*13 + (0.1)*26 = 14.3 damage


Two shortswords
1d6 + 4 at 19-20x2 (main hand)
1d6 at 19-20x2 (off hand)

Each pair of attacks is 6-16 damage. Crit on at least one strike is either 11 - 26 (only main hand crits), 7 - 22 (only off-hand crits), 12-32 (both crit). Average damage for each pair of hits should be

(0.9)^2*11 + (0.9)*(0.1)*18.5 + (0.9)*(0.1)*14.5 + (0.1)^2*22 = 12.1 damage

So Greatsword hear does more damage.

If you take double slice with the shortswords build. Now both weapons are at 1d6+4 damage. So no crits is 10-20 damage, only one hand crit is 15-30, both weapons crit is 20-40 damage. This gives an average damage

(0.9)^2*15 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*22.5 + (0.1)^2*30 = 16.5 damage. So here the shortswords build does more damage assuming you always hit.


Now lets factor in Power attack. With level 1 power attack Greatsword damage is 2d6+9 and we have two shortsword attacks at 1d6+6. As before, we can predict that dual wielding here will do more damage. Similar calculations as before the average damage for greatsword is

(0.9)*16 + (0.1) * 32 = 17.6
(0.9)^2*19 + 2*(0.1)*(0.2)*28.5 + (0.1)^2*36 = 20.88

So more damage in general if you can't miss.



Now if we assume that our hit bonuses are exactly enough to get a 95% hit chance. For example the enemy has 20 AC and you have a modifier of exactly +18 so everything but a 1 is a hit. Now we have to apply a modifier for the second attack for the dual wielding build and we have to redo the calculations to account for this with all bonuses. For the Greatsword,

(0.95)*(0.9)*16 + (0.1)*(0.95)*32 = 17.6*(0.95) = 16.72

The computation for the offhand now changes and becomes more complicated. The main hand is at 95% chance to hit. But the offhand is at 85% chance to hit. So we can add these two factors into the mix. We'll write down the factor for every combination since now the offhand or main hand can miss so we add in the chances of that happening to our average

(0.95)*(0.15)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.95)*(0.15)*0.1*19 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.1)*19 + (0.95)*(0.85) * 20.88 = 18.79385'




Let's lower the hit chance to 50%. The greatsword average damage is

17.6*(0.5) = 9.8

The shortsword does

(0.5)*(0.6)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*20.88 = 9.401

So the lower your hit chance, your average damage is higher with the greatsword. If you have a higher hit chance in general, you'll do more damage dual wielding.

This actually gets a bit more convoluted based on the specifics, for example fighter specialization bonuses are flat and favour additional attacks (dual wielding) over two handing. Similarly weapon damage bonuses like elemental damage favour additional attacks and need to be factored in to the expected damage value calculation. With fewer of these bonuses and more strength, the calculation will swing towards two handing due to the increased accuracy and 50% multiplier on strength damage. Naturally, this will increase further with elements like power attack and two handed fighter bonuses to strength and power attack damage.

Tl;dr the calculation isn't super straight forward outside of specific scenarios even beyond what was laid out above.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

What does more damage overall, dual wielding or two handed weapons, assuming full specialisation on both? Has someone crunched the numbers yet?

Depends on the build and weapons of course. Let's due ranger since it has spec for both without going for a dex build. Here's an example of apparently similar damage. 18 STR (for easy calculations). No sources of damage bonuses other than STR. Assume the ideal case that you always hit. If not, we can just simply multiply the average damage number by the hit chance to see our conditional average damage. Miss chance is just a chance for 0 damage. For this same reason, we can assume that if a crit happens, you'll automatically confirm. This makes the calculation a lot easier though we can simply add some multiplicative factors if you want to factor in hit chance into the average damage. I will use greatsword and two shortswords as the example since without bonuses it's 2d6 damage for each and the same crit chance. We'll focus on averages here. Standard deviations can be done later if one wishes.

Let's start with no bonuses. Average damage for Greatsword

(0.9)*7+ (0.1)*14 = 7.7 damage

for short sword pair

(0.9)^2*7 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*10.5 + (0.1)^2*14 = 7.7 damage


They're the same damage on average and predictably the same standard deviation. So we'll add in bonuses as we go along and see what happens

Greatsword
2d6 + 6 at 19-20 x2

8 - 18 damage each attack with 16-36 damage on crit for each attack. Average damage on each hit should be

(0.9)*13 + (0.1)*26 = 14.3 damage


Two shortswords
1d6 + 4 at 19-20x2 (main hand)
1d6 at 19-20x2 (off hand)

Each pair of attacks is 6-16 damage. Crit on at least one strike is either 11 - 26 (only main hand crits), 7 - 22 (only off-hand crits), 12-32 (both crit). Average damage for each pair of hits should be

(0.9)^2*11 + (0.9)*(0.1)*18.5 + (0.9)*(0.1)*14.5 + (0.1)^2*22 = 12.1 damage

So Greatsword hear does more damage.

If you take double slice with the shortswords build. Now both weapons are at 1d6+4 damage. So no crits is 10-20 damage, only one hand crit is 15-30, both weapons crit is 20-40 damage. This gives an average damage

(0.9)^2*15 + 2*(0.9)*(0.1)*22.5 + (0.1)^2*30 = 16.5 damage. So here the shortswords build does more damage assuming you always hit.


Now lets factor in Power attack. With level 1 power attack Greatsword damage is 2d6+9 and we have two shortsword attacks at 1d6+6. As before, we can predict that dual wielding here will do more damage. Similar calculations as before the average damage for greatsword is

(0.9)*16 + (0.1) * 32 = 17.6
(0.9)^2*19 + 2*(0.1)*(0.2)*28.5 + (0.1)^2*36 = 20.88

So more damage in general if you can't miss.



Now if we assume that our hit bonuses are exactly enough to get a 95% hit chance. For example the enemy has 20 AC and you have a modifier of exactly +18 so everything but a 1 is a hit. Now we have to apply a modifier for the second attack for the dual wielding build and we have to redo the calculations to account for this with all bonuses. For the Greatsword,

(0.95)*(0.9)*16 + (0.1)*(0.95)*32 = 17.6*(0.95) = 16.72

The computation for the offhand now changes and becomes more complicated. The main hand is at 95% chance to hit. But the offhand is at 85% chance to hit. So we can add these two factors into the mix. We'll write down the factor for every combination since now the offhand or main hand can miss so we add in the chances of that happening to our average

(0.95)*(0.15)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.95)*(0.15)*0.1*19 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.9)*9.5 + (0.05)*(0.85)*(0.1)*19 + (0.95)*(0.85) * 20.88 = 18.79385'




Let's lower the hit chance to 50%. The greatsword average damage is

17.6*(0.5) = 9.8

The shortsword does

(0.5)*(0.6)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*[(0.9)*9.5 + (0.1)*19] + (0.5)*(0.4)*20.88 = 9.401

So the lower your hit chance, your average damage is higher with the greatsword. If you have a higher hit chance in general, you'll do more damage dual wielding.

This actually gets a bit more convoluted based on the specifics, for example fighter specialization bonuses are flat and favour additional attacks (dual wielding) over two handing. Similarly weapon damage bonuses like elemental damage favour additional attacks and need to be factored in to the expected damage value calculation. With fewer of these bonuses and more strength, the calculation will swing towards two handing due to the increased accuracy and 50% multiplier on strength damage. Naturally, this will increase further with elements like power attack and two handed fighter bonuses to strength and power attack damage.

Tl;dr the calculation isn't super straight forward outside of specific scenarios even beyond what was laid out above.

I agree. A lot depends on what weapon combinations you're comparing or how far you're into the game or what you're fighting. At early levels, the dual wielder would usually have less hit chance for example than the two hander so this would stack the damage in favor of the two hander since earlier game dual wielders have a larger hit penalty. Or with enemies with damage resistance, dual wielder have to go through DR twice where two handers only have to go through them once. But when those hit penalties disappear and you just consider raw damage output some combinations of one handed weapons can perform better than some two handed weapons. With mythic two weapon fighting, you get rid of much of the hit penalty difference so everything else that comes up is just the variability in encounters and enemies.