Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

Yosharian

What route do Sword Saints go for the Monk splash? Is it Scaled Fist or Traditional Monk?

I figured Scaled since you get more Persuasion and could splash for Paladin for a boost to saves.

It depends completely on what level of cheese you are going for, there is a CHA-based build on my Steam page (see my signature), but Haplo prefers a SS 19/Monk 1 which favours Traditional Monk (i.e. WIS-based) because you aren't getting as much out of your secondary stat.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I know most of you are focused on WOTR,

but who the hell decided that Lion's Claw was the best choice for Sword Saints?

The idea of using Lion's Claw was to focus on doing the touch attack with a touch spell for an extra 4d6/5d6 damage with a 30% crit chance while keeping your 3 attacks per turn. Also Falcata has a decent progression.

 

[Haplo]

I know most of you are focused on WOTR,

but who the hell decided that Lion's Claw was the best choice for Sword Saints?

I ran the numbers and Vanquishers, even with a lower crit chance, is about 30% stronger compared to Lion's Claw.

Assume you have Improved Crit and your strength bonus is +15.

Lion's Claw 42.75

Vanquisher 58.4

Those are the average damage per hit numbers I get. Fuck, you can even get Vanquisher's earlier!

Someone fact check me.

Easy. Some people don't want to forfeit key class features, like Spell Combat and Spellstrike. Lions Claw is among top one handed weapons (and Redeemer is far from guaranteed).
Till mid game or so - also when the game is most difficult - Spell Combat + Spellstrike is very useful.

Of course in Kingmaker if you care about these features, also bastard swords exist. Both one handed for use with Spell Combat, but also sweet oversized variants. So I like bastard swords in SS in Kingmaker.

 

[Haplo]

I know most of you are focused on WOTR,

but who the hell decided that Lion's Claw was the best choice for Sword Saints?

The idea of using Lion's Claw was to focus on doing the touch attack with a touch spell for an extra 4d6/5d6 damage with a 30% crit chance while keeping your 3 attacks per turn. Also Falcata has a decent progression.

Usually it's more like 30 damage. Or 45. Or up to 60 with Vampiric Touch later on. Or 90. Or 180 on crit.
No reason not to use metamagic. Unless you're a Scion with crippled metamagic. Of course this is much nicer if you use mods - Shocking Grasp is begging for Intensify Metamagic - to make it 10d6 (60 maximised, 90 maximised empowered, 180 of also crit).

 

[Yosharian]

This is much better in Wrath when you can make Shocking Grasp a cantrip

 

[DragoFireheart]

I know most of you are focused on WOTR,

but who the hell decided that Lion's Claw was the best choice for Sword Saints?

The idea of using Lion's Claw was to focus on doing the touch attack with a touch spell for an extra 4d6/5d6 damage with a 30% crit chance while keeping your 3 attacks per turn. Also Falcata has a decent progression.

Usually it's more like 30 damage. Or 45. Or up to 60 with Vampiric Touch later on. Or 90. Or 180 on crit.
No reason not to use metamagic. Unless you're a Scion with crippled metamagic. Of course this is much nicer if you use mods - Shocking Grasp is begging for Intensify Metamagic - to make it 10d6 (60 maximised, 90 maximised empowered, 180 of also crit).

Sword saints already have limited slots though...

Thanks for clarification though

Anyways, why do you stick with 19 SS/ 1 trad monk? Isn't your persuasion skill low? Dont you lack the saves for Spawn of Rovagug?

 

[Haplo]

I play in party and buffs and don't play naked. With those things and even rock-bottom charisma I was able to pass all Persuasion checks in the game with flying colours. Including those juicy 45 DC ones that made my main char level 20 in Act 5.
I mean, Tristan's Touch of Good alone is like +10 all skills. Bard song of competence another 5. Food (Ice cream, was it?) +3. Ring of Circumstances +2 I think, weapon with +4/+5 and so on.

As for Spawn, no idea. Haven't fought him. However from my experience usually the most important save is Will. And Traditional Monk (+2 Will) + high-ish Wisdom provide solid Will saves. On par with Charisma monk/paladins that did not invest in Wis from what I remember. Might even have a slight edge.

 

[Yosharian]

Haplo is such a min-maxer, it's disgusting.

 

[Cael]

Paiturd's Cuckfinder: Bugmaker has so many possible permutations of alternate main stats, but the one thing it did not do was to add in the Shiba Protector's Wis bonus to hit and damage. It is the one PrC that allows Monk to function properly in 3.x.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Paiturd's Cuckfinder: Bugmaker has so many possible permutations of alternate main stats, but the one thing it did not do was to add in the Shiba Protector's Wis bonus to hit and damage. It is the one PrC that allows Monk to function properly in 3.x.

Monks are correctly played as STR builds with no more than 7 INT. Right Pink Eye?

 

[Raghar]

Paiturd's Cuckfinder: Bugmaker has so many possible permutations of alternate main stats, but the one thing it did not do was to add in the Shiba Protector's Wis bonus to hit and damage. It is the one PrC that allows Monk to function properly in 3.x.

Monks are correctly played as STR builds with no more than 7 INT. Right Pink Eye?

They need to add a dialogue line: "your INT is too low to be able to select this dialogue option".

 

[mediocrepoet]

Paiturd's Cuckfinder: Bugmaker has so many possible permutations of alternate main stats, but the one thing it did not do was to add in the Shiba Protector's Wis bonus to hit and damage. It is the one PrC that allows Monk to function properly in 3.x.

Monks are correctly played as STR builds with no more than 7 INT. Right Pink Eye?

It's why they aren't skilled with armour or most weapons. They can't figure out how to put it on or which end to hold.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Paiturd's Cuckfinder: Bugmaker has so many possible permutations of alternate main stats, but the one thing it did not do was to add in the Shiba Protector's Wis bonus to hit and damage. It is the one PrC that allows Monk to function properly in 3.x.

Monks are correctly played as STR builds with no more than 7 INT. Right Pink Eye?

It's why they aren't skilled with armour or most weapons. They can't figure out how to put it on or which end to hold.

That's why you start the game with Valerie. She's smart enough at least to get you to put on your monk robes correctly.

 

[DragoFireheart]

I play in party and buffs and don't play naked. With those things and even rock-bottom charisma I was able to pass all Persuasion checks in the game with flying colours. Including those juicy 45 DC ones that made my main char level 20 in Act 5.
I mean, Tristan's Touch of Good alone is like +10 all skills. Bard song of competence another 5. Food (Ice cream, was it?) +3. Ring of Circumstances +2 I think, weapon with +4/+5 and so on.

As for Spawn, no idea. Haven't fought him. However from my experience usually the most important save is Will. And Traditional Monk (+2 Will) + high-ish Wisdom provide solid Will saves. On par with Charisma monk/paladins that did not invest in Wis from what I remember. Might even have a slight edge.

Interesting that the will saves are that high.

Question: what race? I'd rather not be a demon thingy. There's no matching aasimar race for Str/Wisdom.

Question: did you help someone develop a sword saint to solo Spawn of Rovagug?

 

[DragoFireheart]

Haplo

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...date_better_optimized_one_handed_melee_build/

 

[Yosharian]

Haplo

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder...date_better_optimized_one_handed_melee_build/

Yeah that build is pretty much the same as my MC build.

Except, you know, not as good

 

[Yosharian]

The fact that he thinks DEX-based is 'significantly' weaker at dealing damage than STR builds shows that he hasn't done his homework. I have done the math, Bane of the Living is extremely competitive with even Vanquisher in most scenarios.

Of course you do come across monsters with immunity to negative energy but those aren't typical, and losing a bit of damage against those few mobs doesn't break the DEX build at all. In fact I rather think it adds an interesting level of depth to the character that one has to switch out one's weapon from time to time to beat up undead or similar creatures. But maybe that's just me, I guess to most people the idea of pressing a button in combat depending on the enemy type is just not 'optimal'.

Finally the idea that any enemy that's Evil, including Rovagug, will pose a threat to any build that optimizes even a little bit for Smite, is laughable - the bonuses are simply too good. Ok he will land a bit of damage due to his stupid unresistable spell damage, he's still going down, fast.

 

[Yosharian]

I would add that critical feats in general, even exhausting critical, are trap feats and not worth the cost, there's almost always something better.

 

[Haplo]

The fact that he thinks DEX-based is 'significantly' weaker at dealing damage than STR builds shows that he hasn't done his homework. I have done the math, Bane of the Living is extremely competitive with even Vanquisher in most scenarios.

Of course you do come across monsters with immunity to negative energy but those aren't typical, and losing a bit of damage against those few mobs doesn't break the DEX build at all. In fact I rather think it adds an interesting level of depth to the character that one has to switch out one's weapon from time to time to beat up undead or similar creatures. But maybe that's just me, I guess to most people the idea of pressing a button in combat depending on the enemy type is just not 'optimal'.

Finally the idea that any enemy that's Evil, including Rovagug, will pose a threat to any build that optimizes even a little bit for Smite, is laughable - the bonuses are simply too good. Ok he will land a bit of damage due to his stupid unresistable spell damage, he's still going down, fast.

I was very unimpressed with Bane of the Living in practical testing. Plus I don't think your theorycrafting about comparable damage properly takes into account the available buffs, which heavily favour Strength builds.

 

[Cael]

I was very unimpressed with Bane of the Living in practical testing. Plus I don't think your theorycrafting about comparable damage properly takes into account the available buffs, which heavily favour Strength builds.

That is the problem with theorycrafters, and the same problem exists in other fields. That is why we have the phrase "ivory tower".

 

[Lyric Suite]

Base game is currently free on Epic if anybody cares lmao.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Finally the idea that any enemy that's Evil, including Rovagug, will pose a threat to any build that optimizes even a little bit for Smite, is laughable - the bonuses are simply too good. Ok he will land a bit of damage due to his stupid unresistable spell damage, he's still going down, fast.

Which is why I want to do the Paladin splash: bonus to saves via Charisma and Smite Evil.

If there's even a couple of evil enemies worth using smite on (Rovagug, Vordaki), then I think it's worth losing Superior Reflexs and a Magus Arcana (probably Ghost Blade).

 

[Haplo]

Finally the idea that any enemy that's Evil, including Rovagug, will pose a threat to any build that optimizes even a little bit for Smite, is laughable - the bonuses are simply too good. Ok he will land a bit of damage due to his stupid unresistable spell damage, he's still going down, fast.

Which is why I want to do the Paladin splash: bonus to saves via Charisma and Smite Evil.

If there's even a couple of evil enemies worth using smite on (Rovagug, Vordaki), then I think it's worth losing Superior Reflexs and a Magus Arcana (probably Ghost Blade).

Depends on priorities, I guess. Sure, Smite Evil is occasionally strong (but 1 use per rest kinda limits it to a handful of boss fights).
I think personally I'd prefer to prioritize getting Dimension Strike for boss fights. That would not delay other awesome SS class features (Lethal Stance, Bane Blade and others). Although I managed pretty well with neither Smite nor Dimension Strike (did use Arcane Accuracy though - and +9 AB for 1 AP is not bad at all; plus rod quickened True Strike with Vital Strikes).

Superior Reflexes does come very late, almost too late (it helps that I hit level 20 before Pitax Palace in Act 5). But it was as gamechanger for me, when I could stop worrying about rolling Initiative, getting flat-footed and relying only on Mirror Image/summons/running away not to be destroyed. Really changes how bold you can act in combat.

And Ghosts type enemies are among the most common and annoying in later acts.
I've found Ghost Touch very useful.
Well if you have a strong party less of an issue, as nuking (with Stormbolts and Mass Heal) is arguably the best way to dispose of them. Also less important if you do use ECBs and wield Clarity, I guess (though its not guaranteed).

 

[Yosharian]

I was very unimpressed with Bane of the Living in practical testing. Plus I don't think your theorycrafting about comparable damage properly takes into account the available buffs, which heavily favour Strength builds.

Then you're testing it wrong, it's effectively another crit multiplier. It's also almost as easy to get as Vanquisher in terms of how quickly you can get it.

And no, the difference from using STR buffs doesn't make enough of a difference to make DEX 'significantly' weaker than STR.

Again, I have done the math. We're talking fairly small differences in damage.

 

[Haplo]

I was very unimpressed with Bane of the Living in practical testing. Plus I don't think your theorycrafting about comparable damage properly takes into account the available buffs, which heavily favour Strength builds.

Then you're testing it wrong, it's effectively another crit multiplier. It's also almost as easy to get as Vanquisher in terms of how quickly you can get it.

And no, the difference from using STR buffs doesn't make enough of a difference to make DEX 'significantly' weaker than STR.

Again, I have done the math. We're talking fairly small differences in damage.

Don't know how it works now. But it used to trigger maximum one time per round. Perhaps due to animation limitations. Of course, all enemies pass the saving throw so its 55 damage at best. Which is very underwhelming when you're pumping 500+ damage per round. Also many enemies are immune.