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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I have been replaying this after years, it is a seriously a better game than trannywrath even without all the quality of life and engine improvements. I have been chugging along on unfair but might give up as it has had equal doses of "challenging" and "needlessly annoying".

It is better than WOTR on vibes alone. There are just not enough rpgs that do the whole "start as a nobody and become king". Ironic because it should be as common as the "be the chosen one and save the world" trope. Being forced into being "knight commander of the 32nd tranny rainbow brigade" just doesn't cut it.

I have some question about mechanics. If I have two rogues with double debilitation(namely MC and Nok-Nok) attacking the same enemy an applying "bewildering" and "disorienting" injuries, how will the numbers apply? I know they don't stack and the first part of the effects is clear enough(a flat -2 to attack rolls and AC). It is the second part of the effect which I ask about(an extra -2 to AC against the rogue's attacks and extra-2 ro attack rolls against the rogue).

Will this second effect apply to both MC and NN? Or only to the first or last rogue to apply these effects to the enemy? I ask because if it is the latter it might be better/more efficient to not invest a talent on double debilitation and keep each character with a single different effect. Otherwise full benefit would only happen if both attack different enemies, which is not optimal considering how flanking is so important in this game.
Your best bet is just leaving Nok Nok at home lol. Too much duplication of effort. I guess if you want him for Gob Village he sticks around for end of that chapter but not many benefits to doubling up on MC's class.
 

Yosharian

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This comment is haunting me with its ambiguity. Go on, tell me what I'm in for. I keep trying to play but I manage like 20 minutes max before giving up and doing something else. Is it worth pushing ahead?
Honestly the complaints I had about the latter parts of the game (e.g. way too easy) might not be the same as what you have

For example my experience of the King Irovetti fight was that I could have solo'd him with my main character alone, while I've read others complain that it was an extremely hard fight

Even HATEOT which is routinely maligned by players, I found to be quite interesting in some aspects, if annoying at times, but then again I had access to a high-DC Weird

I think ultimately the worst aspect of the lategame is having to click through hundreds of KM event cards while your will to live and your sanity slowly dwindle to nothing

I'm hoping that when I eventually get around to finishing the game on my current playthrough, the experience is a lot more interesting. It's already been really exciting just playing through the kobold/mite dungeon and even the troll king put up a pretty decent fight
 

Barbarian

Arcane
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Jun 7, 2015
Messages
7,999
Nah, NN will be in my party. He is one of the less annoying companions. Two pure class rogues are kind of redundant I know, but I think it can work. Guess I will only find out about the debilitating mechanic applied by two rogues when season of the bloom hits though.

I don't want to run mercs and most companions I ditch on the get-go. Amiri, Regongar and Octavia for instance are unbearable to hear for more than a few seconds. The R and G duo I ditch at the very first interaction in technic league camp, just so that I don't have to find out about their "open relationship" and love of cucking the very first time I interact with them. Fuck these degenerate reddit characters. Send them to WOTR where they belong.

I'm running a 4 man party first chapter with Harrim, Jaethal and Linzi. Later I guess I will add Tiefling sisters and Jubilost, with one of them making way for NN. Valerie and Ekundayo I will keep only for councilor positions. In unfair mode it is kind of mandatory to abuse the "only active party members receive experience" option as you know.
 

Litmanen

Educated
Joined
Feb 27, 2024
Messages
382
I'm not 'exploiting' game rules any more than anyone else. I'm just using the rules the game laid out in order to create something interesting to me. You wanna have a good cry about that be my guest, but please don't act like I'm 'exploiting'.
I'm sorry, but you are. You are not supposed to know whatever will happen to your character from level 1 to 20. You completely cut out the random part of the character progression. If you create a Magus, 99% of time your magus and those of other people like you, who "use" the rules, will be the same. And this is not normal in my personal opinion. If there is an overpowered build and you use always that, you are not "Playing" a role, in the game, you are just trying to make the game bend to your will. And it's fair, if you want to do that, be my guest. But don't ask me to believe that this is just a "good use of the rules". You're looking for rules weaknesses and you don't add any personal/random choice to your character creation and progression.
Bag of Tricks is primarily used to fix bugs and other problems with the game.
But you suggested me to use it for XP exploit.
Respec is used purely to allow me to use companions with my own builds - I could just as easily use mercenaries and nothing would change except the builds would become stronger because I would be able to pick custom races, too.
That, again: why? The game gives you "random" companions who have good things and flaws and you decide to chage them to make them flawless, again, bending the game to your will. Those are the companions: use them as they are or send them away. No one forces you. No, you want them, but you want also to decide what they need to be and that they have builds ecploiting the rules. Sorry, USING the rules.
Alignment fix is used because Owlcat interpreted alignment rules incorrectly. Not because I can't handle playing within an alignment.
That's the rule implemented in the game. Once you know it exists, you try to cope with it.
 

Barbarian

Arcane
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Messages
7,999
Your best bet is just leaving Nok Nok at home lol. Too much duplication of effort. I guess if you want him for Gob Village he sticks around for end of that chapter but not many benefits to doubling up on MC's class.

Another interesting mechanic to use/abuse with two dual-wielding rogues(many attacks per round) is "crippling strike" talent. -2 strenght with every sneak attack I'm quite sure you can kill some powerful enemies without actually having to drop their HP to 0.
 

Yosharian

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I'm not 'exploiting' game rules any more than anyone else. I'm just using the rules the game laid out in order to create something interesting to me. You wanna have a good cry about that be my guest, but please don't act like I'm 'exploiting'.
I'm sorry, but you are. You are not supposed to know whatever will happen to your character from level 1 to 20. You completely cut out the random part of the character progression. If you create a Magus, 99% of time your magus and those of other people like you, who "use" the rules, will be the same. And this is not normal in my personal opinion. If there is an overpowered build and you use always that, you are not "Playing" a role, in the game, you are just trying to make the game bend to your will. And it's fair, if you want to do that, be my guest. But don't ask me to believe that this is just a "good use of the rules". You're looking for rules weaknesses and you don't add any personal/random choice to your character creation and progression.
Bag of Tricks is primarily used to fix bugs and other problems with the game.
But you suggested me to use it for XP exploit.
Respec is used purely to allow me to use companions with my own builds - I could just as easily use mercenaries and nothing would change except the builds would become stronger because I would be able to pick custom races, too.
That, again: why? The game gives you "random" companions who have good things and flaws and you decide to chage them to make them flawless, again, bending the game to your will. Those are the companions: use them as they are or send them away. No one forces you. No, you want them, but you want also to decide what they need to be and that they have builds ecploiting the rules. Sorry, USING the rules.
Alignment fix is used because Owlcat interpreted alignment rules incorrectly. Not because I can't handle playing within an alignment.
That's the rule implemented in the game. Once you know it exists, you try to cope with it.
> I'm sorry, but you are. You are not supposed to know whatever will happen to your character from level 1 to 20. You completely cut out the random part of the character progression. If you create a Magus, 99% of time your magus and those of other people like you, who "use" the rules, will be the same. And this is not normal in my personal opinion. If there is an overpowered build and you use always that, you are not "Playing" a role, in the game, you are just trying to make the game bend to your will. And it's fair, if you want to do that, be my guest. But don't ask me to believe that this is just a "good use of the rules". You're looking for rules weaknesses and you don't add any personal/random choice to your character creation and progression.

Ah now its "I play blind and that's the proper way to play". Amazing how the goalposts shift throughout the conversation.

> But you suggested me to use it for XP exploit.

Because you seemed obsessed with reaching level 20. My point was that if you are so desperate to reach level 20 that you are looking into exploiting the share XP function to try to get a little extra XP (see, this is how you use that word), you might as well just use BoT to add the XP and stop stressing about it. I was not making the blanket recommendation that you should cheat in order to enjoy the game, period. I never use BoT to cheat, I only use it to fix bugs or problems - that was my point.

> That, again: why? The game gives you "random" companions who have good things and flaws and you decide to chage them to make them flawless, again, bending the game to your will. Those are the companions: use them as they are or send them away. No one forces you. No, you want them, but you want also to decide what they need to be and that they have builds ecploiting the rules. Sorry, USING the rules.

And here it is, here we have the idiot purist attempting to use the same old retarded arguments as to why I am not playing the game properly. How about this, you fuck off instead of telling me how to play the game and disparaging my choices. Not once did I say that your approach of using the vanilla companions in their original form, was an incorrect way to play.

> That's the rule implemented in the game. Once you know it exists, you try to cope with it.

No, it's an incorrect rule. Making a decision that is Good, should not influence the Law/Chaos axis. 'Good' actions are not inherently non-Lawful, or inherently non-Chaotic. They are simply good. This is correcting a bug. And again, if you want to play with their rule, go for it, you treat yourself. But it's an illogical system and it should be fixed.
 

Yosharian

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I don't want to run mercs and most companions I ditch on the get-go. Amiri, Regongar and Octavia for instance are unbearable to hear for more than a few seconds. The R and G duo I ditch at the very first interaction in technic league camp, just so that I don't have to find out about their "open relationship" and love of cucking the very first time I interact with them. Fuck these degenerate reddit characters. Send them to WOTR where they belong.

I'm running a 4 man party first chapter with Harrim, Jaethal and Linzi. Later I guess I will add Tiefling sisters and Jubilost, with one of them making way for NN. Valerie and Ekundayo I will keep only for councilor positions. In unfair mode it is kind of mandatory to abuse the "only active party members receive experience" option as you know.
A/R/G are absolutely unbearable.

Valerie is growing on me after I replaced her portrait. Ekundayo is just fucking boring, this guy is not a character he is a cardboard cutout.
 

Litmanen

Educated
Joined
Feb 27, 2024
Messages
382
Ah now its "I play blind and that's the proper way to play". Amazing how the goalposts shift throughout the conversation.
I'm not playing blind, but I'm not playing just to exploit any single flaw of the rules. When I level, I read what the game propose to me in the new level and I decide on the moment. I do not decide because I know that skill will be useful in 6 level when I will chose another skill to make them together overpowered.

Admit you love to come here and say "I play at max level because I'm very good". Yes, sure you are, maths does everything in your place.
Because you seemed obsessed with reaching level 20
Here you are just showing you don't have any argument. I just asked "Is it possible to reach level 20?". Doesn't sound obsessed and it wasn't. You, evidently, you are obsessed and are here just to say unbearable things to support your thesis
And here it is, here we have the idiot purist attempting to use the same old retarded arguments as to why I am not playing the game properly. How about this, you fuck off instead of telling me how to play the game and disparaging my choices. Not once did I say that your approach of using the vanilla companions in their original form, was an incorrect way to play.
FOR GOD SAKE! You literally told me I was wrong in not using Mods and other things THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
 

Daidre

Arcane
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Messages
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Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Will this second effect apply to both MC and NN? Or only to the first or last rogue to apply these effects to the enemy? I ask because if it is the latter it might be better/more efficient to not invest a talent on double debilitation and keep each character with a single different effect.
Last time I played ~ year ago Double Debilitation was not working even with a single rogue in unmodded game. I can't check it right now, but cursory search on that particular bug, when only one debuff is actively applied most of the time, shows that issue, most likely, still there :(
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1bol90c/double_debilitation_not_working/
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Nah, NN will be in my party. He is one of the less annoying companions. Two pure class rogues are kind of redundant I know, but I think it can work. Guess I will only find out about the debilitating mechanic applied by two rogues when season of the bloom hits though.

I don't want to run mercs and most companions I ditch on the get-go. Amiri, Regongar and Octavia for instance are unbearable to hear for more than a few seconds. The R and G duo I ditch at the very first interaction in technic league camp, just so that I don't have to find out about their "open relationship" and love of cucking the very first time I interact with them. Fuck these degenerate reddit characters. Send them to WOTR where they belong.

I'm running a 4 man party first chapter with Harrim, Jaethal and Linzi. Later I guess I will add Tiefling sisters and Jubilost, with one of them making way for NN. Valerie and Ekundayo I will keep only for councilor positions. In unfair mode it is kind of mandatory to abuse the "only active party members receive experience" option as you know.
Both Amiri and Reg get better as you go on the basis of dialogue choices you make. It's kind of the point.

Effective kings inspire their subjects to be better people.

Idk, I play with the sound turned down and either music playing or nothing to avoid waking up my kids.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Will this second effect apply to both MC and NN? Or only to the first or last rogue to apply these effects to the enemy? I ask because if it is the latter it might be better/more efficient to not invest a talent on double debilitation and keep each character with a single different effect.
Last time I played ~ year ago Double Debilitation was not working even with a single rogue in unmodded game. I can't check it right now, but cursory search on that particular bug, when only one debuff is actively applied most of the time, shows that issue, most likely, still there :(
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/1bol90c/double_debilitation_not_working/
Working here (several years ago):

Rogue vs GeoKin.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Your best bet is just leaving Nok Nok at home lol. Too much duplication of effort. I guess if you want him for Gob Village he sticks around for end of that chapter but not many benefits to doubling up on MC's class.

Another interesting mechanic to use/abuse with two dual-wielding rogues(many attacks per round) is "crippling strike" talent. -2 strenght with every sneak attack I'm quite sure you can kill some powerful enemies without actually having to drop their HP to 0.
I guess. Hard to get a fight to last over three rounds by midgame and often less so Crippling Strike doesn't usually have time to have a big effect.

I like stuff like Double Debilitation that reduces variance immediately over effects that take several applications to be relevant.

Slayer MC Slaying.jpg

I mean yeah she's slowly whittling down the 38 STR or whatever but she's also simply killing it.

Nok Nok solo Unfair.jpg

Nok soloing Unfair Bloom boss after split. His knives do plenty without any help.
 
Joined
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Barbarian I imagine they would just overwrite each other. I will respectfully disagree with Desiderius on class duplicationnin the case of rogues I once had an MC, Valerie, and Ekundayo specced as slayers. The amount of strength debuffs were profound. Several of the most annoying later game enemies were a non-issue for me because I turned their STR attribute negative. None if them were even dual wielding. Noknok + another dual wielding rogue would make a fine pairing.
 

Barbarian

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I'm playing on PS5 so no mods. Sucks that the game still has significant bugs after all these years... and that it is no longer patched.

I guess I will have to store a save upon reaching level 10 and test it. I will just reload if so, because otherwise it is a wasted feat.
 

Barbarian

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Yup some quick googling seems to imply double debilitation is not working at all, at least in unmodded Kingmaker.

Guess I will have each of the rogues applying either bewilding injury or desorienting injury and that is it. Use the feat for something else.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I'm playing on PS5 so no mods. Sucks that the game still has significant bugs after all these years... and that it is no longer patched.

I guess I will have to store a save upon reaching level 10 and test it. I will just reload if so, because otherwise it is a wasted feat.
If sneaks are triggering you're already winning.

This is just win more.
 

Barbarian

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Or rather have them both apply the same?

Seems the bug is related to the engine having a rule of no two debilitating effects being applied at the same time. Having them each using bewildering at least guarantees a debuff to AC for that rogues attacks.

Bugfinder: Crashmaker is an apt nickname for this.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Double shows up on different combat logs.

Bewildering on the player attack roll, Disorienting on the mob's. Then there are separate entries for the malus the mob gets vs the Rogue (which ticks up to -6 with class levels) and the malus vs the rest of the party (flat -2).

It could be that people are simply confused by this and it is working properly*. Would need to test to confirm. Never noticed a problem but then again a well-played Rogue doesn't get attacked much. I guess it could show up on the attack vs the tank.

* - OTOH Daidre is seldom wrong
 

Daidre

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
It could be that people are simply confused by this and it is working properly*. Would need to test to confirm. Never noticed a problem but then again a well-played Rogue doesn't get attacked much. I guess it could show up on the attack vs the tank.
I was checking it on enemy:
QjxiFDg.png

And only one debuff was landing on enemy. Also, I have checked attack logs for enemy and rogue - only one penalty was in place.
Mind it, my test guy is rogue 4/slayer 10, maybe he bugs out because of multiclass source for Rogue Advanced Talents.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Let me check my Nok Nok screenshots. I remember thinking that R4 Octavia was overwriting his bonuses.

NokNok Tanking Lvl 22 Owlbear-like Treant.jpg

Working properly here, note attack side in above comment.

NokTank Blade Sense.jpg

Rare Blade Sense sighting for Knife Master
 

Daidre

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Let me check my Nok Nok screenshots. I remember thinking that R4 Octavia was overwriting his bonuses.
I was talking specifically about Double Debilitation not working, not about how several Injuries from two or more Rogues will interact with each other.
It is very noticeable when compared to Wrath:
waX3SkD.png

Both debuffs are in place from the one and only rogue
But I have never seen case like this in Kingmaker, not in the attack logs (there is no Nok-Nok's attack on your AB breakdowns to check if Disorienting Injury also applied), no at the enemy's "Inspect" window.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
There’s an attack log posted above in Bloom of Bewildering showing up but that is before he’d have access to Double Debilitation.
 

Barbarian

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In this game you really need to check the web frequently.

I remember not using the "amulet of double crosses" before because the tooltip mentioned a seemingly annoying effect where you would be forced to attack your allies when they moved away from you. Turns out this isn't implemented in the game. Also the amulet tooltip says the extra 2d6 sneak damage only applies to melee damage. But it applies to ranged damage as well.

ITT, one of the best items for rogues and slayers as is.

I wonder how much else is bugged in this game. Should you ignore tooltips and descriptors entirely, using the wiki as reference? When exactly they stopped updating the game btw?
 

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