Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[<3sRichardSimmons]

ITT certain Codexers refuse to acknowledge that mechanics can be solid on paper and still have shit implementation.

 

[ArchAngel]

yeah kinetics are even worse
I don't think vancian system can be entirely engaging and compliment resource management of the game when other classes just ignoring it exist and are so easy

I don't get this argument. A Wizard gets Haste and/or Stinking Cloud at level 5, both of those being game-changers. We're talking about a powerful mass disable that your own party is immune to if you combine it with a spell from a level 5 Cleric and a spell that effectively (at that point in the game) doubles the damage output of your Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians/hard hitters in general. On the other hand, a Kineticist at level 5 gets..... +1d6 damage to a single-target blast that he might whiff anyway?

The Vancian system still works, Kineticists or Alchemists being able to ignore it means very little when their shit is so weak compared to Vancian casters. Up until high levels, anyway, but that point, D&D as a whole breaks completely, so w/e.

It is false logic to pick a specific level to prove your point. Yea, at lvl 5 wizard gets awesome spells. Lets then look at high levels when Kineticist gets very powerful aoe with free empower. Or endgame where kineticist with one cast does 300 damage in huge AoE with no save and spell keeps repeating itself and doing that damage round by round and costs zero resources..

 

[rashiakas]

You dont need energy damage to kill a troll. Just coup de grace him.

 

[ArchAngel]

Exactly. That makes weather a mechanic with a meaning. Just because you being a part of phone gaming generation does not like it, it is not our problem. Go continue playing your phone games if you don't like to play proper slower PC games.

It's a shame you're incapable of grasping the point I'm trying to make.

I understand very well. I just don't agree with you or your need to upkeep your ADHD rush.

 

[glass blackbird]

The only result of weather in Kingmaker is it makes you rest to avoid being annoyed by it, which has basically zero cost due to how much time you get to do things and the fact that if it is raining it means you're in a place you can hunt. There's no tradeoff because the cost, time, is meaningless.

The mechanical effects would be cool to work with if it wasn't so annoying to simply walk around in that you will always immediately sleep to avoid it

 

[ArchAngel]

I walked around in it many times, I don't remember one time I really wanted to waste time by resting. If it really bothered me I would cast Haste on my party and move that way.
And time does matter, at least if you want to maximise your Kingdom management.

 

[Daidre]

Doing complete rebuff on the whole party is usually enough of incentive for me to avoid extra rest due to bad weather.

 

[Luckmann]

in the system where alchemists exist wizords having cantrips is honestly not a problem at this point

At least Alchemists are limited. Kineticists are just plain bullshit.

 

[Daidre]

It takes pretty long time for Kineticists to shine when in full party with classic xp sharing.
Even lvl 11 for Wall is at least 30 hours in the game, even more for Deadly Earth and optimal version requires very specific choice of elements.

 

[Lambach]

It is false logic to pick a specific level to prove your point. Yea, at lvl 5 wizard gets awesome spells. Lets then look at high levels when Kineticist gets very powerful aoe with free empower. Or endgame where kineticist with one cast does 300 damage in huge AoE with no save and spell keeps repeating itself and doing that damage round by round and costs zero resources..

Fine, you want a non-specific level? 1-11 (more than half the game), Wizard shits on anything a Kineticist has. 12 is the earliest you can get something that begins to match the Wizard's power, and you're still less versatile and less useful as a member of a team. Endgame, as I've already said, is, has always and will always be completely broken in 3.5 (and before) and Pathfinder D&D, so it's pointless to even discuss it.

Having infinite resources is not such a big thing when your resources are shit compared to classes with finite but powerful resources and resting is not penalized harshly enough that infinite resources become a must.

 

[ArchAngel]

How is endgame pointless to discuss when endgame (and Act 1 which is up to the magical lvl 5) is only hard part of the game. You are telling me wizards make easy parts easier while Kineticist make hard parts easier? LOL.

 

[Cryomancer]

I love Pathfinder Kingmaker but IMO, they could made an better job translating pnp rules. Sneak attack is broken OP. Against or in favor of party. And they could implemented newer classes. If they wanna an pathfinder alternative to warlock, Witch is IMO much better than Kineticist ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/ )

Mainly because unlike 5e warlock, the "contract" with her Patron, forces the caster to do his bidding

"Your power was brokered from a powerful daemon, demon, or devil to speed the corruption and moral decay of mortals. When you die, your soul goes to Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell, and you can’t be raised or resurrected except by extraordinary means—though bold service may earn you a favored position in damnation.
You gain the misfortune hex at 1st level, but your magic requires sacrifice; each day when you prepare spells, you must deal 1d6 points of damage to yourself as part of your infernal ritual, feeding the lost blood to your familiar. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this damage increases by 1d6." http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/witch-patrons

An warlock on 5e that becomes an conduct of nine hells itself doesn't get much rules his relation with his master and i know. Warlocks and his patron is different than clerics and his deities. They are much more in a relationship of master/apprentice than of deity and his cleric, but if you made an deal with an archfey or an archdemon, it should affect your character more than what 5e establish.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't get this argument. A Wizard gets Haste and/or Stinking Cloud at level 5, both of those being game-changers

Provided you have other classes to make use of them in the party.

Kinetic can solo game no prob without even having any sex with slots or selecting right spells. They do damage against anything and incredibly consistently ignoring enemy defences. My Unfair runs featuring many characters always had Kinetics in top damage.

They're a pew-pew no-brainer class.

If they wanna an pathfinder alternative to warlock.

i cast my eldritch blast

It takes pretty long time for Kineticists to shine

Yeah it's when they get infinite burning hands which is

is it level 1? 3?

 

[Sykar]

How is endgame pointless to discuss when endgame (and Act 1 which is up to the magical lvl 5) is only hard part of the game. You are telling me wizards make easy parts easier while Kineticist make hard parts easier? LOL.

Wizards make all parts easier. Even from 1-4 a single Sleep or Grease spell can turn the tide of battle, or a single Glitterdust, etc. Late game you got Sirocco locking down almost everything. Hellfire Ray obliterating even bosses. If you go Illusionist and pump your DC high enough you can one shot shit with Weird/Phantasmal Killer. Some of the best buffs are also up there.

I don't get this argument. A Wizard gets Haste and/or Stinking Cloud at level 5, both of those being game-changers

Provided you have other classes to make use of them in the party.

Kinetic can solo game no prob without even having any sex with slots or selecting right spells. They do damage against anything and incredibly consistently ignoring enemy defences. My Unfair runs featuring many characters always had Kinetics in top damage.

They're a pew-pew no-brainer class.

If they wanna an pathfinder alternative to warlock.

i cast my eldritch blast

Any class can probably solo provided you know the ins and outs. Dealing most damage means little solo, since you should level up lightning fast, easily reaching max level before Pitax. By that time any Wizard has enough spell slots to go through the game.

 

[Tacgnol]

I love Pathfinder Kingmaker but IMO, they could made an better job translating pnp rules. Sneak attack is broken OP

Only in the sense flanking is much easier than it is on the tabletop.

Sneak attacks in 3.5 and PF have always been horribly nasty. Mostly because they trigger on every iterative and natural attack.

I still have nightmares about a hasted magus pirate we fought in Strange Aeons AP who had 5 attacks with 5d6 sneak dice on each. He was only CR8.

 

[Shadenuat]

Any class can probably solo provided you know the ins and outs. Dealing most damage means little solo

In party, not solo. In party compared to others, using the %damage of rogue dungeon pillar.

Not any class, definitely not on any difficulty; and definitly not as blatantly straightforward as kinetic does it without any resource management whatsoever.

 

[Cryomancer]

I love Pathfinder Kingmaker but IMO, they could made an better job translating pnp rules. Sneak attack is broken OP

Only in the sense flanking is much easier than it is on the tabletop.

Sneak attacks in 3.5 and PF have always been horribly nasty. Mostly because they trigger on every iterative and natural attack.

I still have nightmares about a magus pirate we fought in Strange Aeons AP who had 5 attacks with 5d6 sneak dice on each. He was only CR8.

not only that. An spell that deals half damage "A type" and half "B type" applies sneak attack 2 times. If the spell deals 3 ray attacks, like Hellfire Ray, then you can get 6 sneak attacks with an single spell cast. This was on launching. I searched a little and looks like they corrected the bug > https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9t11ev/best_ray_spells_for_arcane_trickster/

But sneak attack still broken, IMO should be like pnp and that is enough good.

 

[Haplo]

That bug was corrected. Mostly. In my case Scorching Ray still seems to trigger sneak attacks 3 times.

 

[Shadenuat]

I honestly would just made it so you can only sneak once per round.

 

[Tacgnol]

I love Pathfinder Kingmaker but IMO, they could made an better job translating pnp rules. Sneak attack is broken OP

Only in the sense flanking is much easier than it is on the tabletop.

Sneak attacks in 3.5 and PF have always been horribly nasty. Mostly because they trigger on every iterative and natural attack.

I still have nightmares about a magus pirate we fought in Strange Aeons AP who had 5 attacks with 5d6 sneak dice on each. He was only CR8.

not only that. An spell that deals half damage "A type" and half "B type" applies sneak attack 2 times. If the spell deals 3 ray attacks, like Hellfire Ray, then you can get 6 sneak attacks with an single spell cast. This was on launching. I searched a little and looks like they corrected the bug > https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9t11ev/best_ray_spells_for_arcane_trickster/

But sneak attack still broken, IMO should be like pnp and that is enough good.

Yeah there were or are (not sure whether they're fixed) things like those ray spells, but sneak attack is still nasty as fuck in the pnp.

The only thing that's really different is that it's much harder to get flanking in most pnp encounters. Though that's what feint and improved feint are for.

 

[Cryomancer]

That bug was corrected. Mostly. In my case Scorching Ray still seems to trigger sneak attacks 3 times.

Is exactly the same spell that paizo used on his FAQ

Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm

 

[Tacgnol]

I know some people actually house rule on the tabletop so sneak attack damage only applies to primary attacks, I've always found that overly harsh on melee sneak attackers.

Personally, I'd have just made it so you couldn't get sneak dice on secondary natural attacks. Probably a fairer way of balancing some of the retarded sneak builds.

 

[Cael]

That bug was corrected. Mostly. In my case Scorching Ray still seems to trigger sneak attacks 3 times.

Is exactly the same spell that paizo used on his FAQ

Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?
No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm

That is the rule from 3.x, but it only comes into play if you are sneak attacking from concealment. If you are flanking a guy, every attack is a sneak attack. Of course, you can't actually flank a guy using a ranged weapon in the PnP game, so the two rules don't ever come into contact.

The problem with the game is that the target is considered flanked if there are two enemies next to it. Once it is considered flanked, it is flanked by everyone, not just those two guys. Suddenly, you have a situation where you are considered flanking someone with a ranged weapon, which, of course, triggers sneak attack with every attack.

The game fucked up the mechanics.

 

[glass blackbird]

By endgame your sneak attack wizard will have maxed out Arcane Trickster and can sneak attack on anything. Plus they can make a couple attacks per rest get SA damage regardless of flanking, good for AoE

 

[Sykar]

Any class can probably solo provided you know the ins and outs. Dealing most damage means little solo

In party, not solo. In party compared to others, using the %damage of rogue dungeon pillar.

Not any class, definitely not on any difficulty; and definitly not as blatantly straightforward as kinetic does it without any resource management whatsoever.

/shrug
Don't really care anyway. Don't plan on ever playing beyond Challenging or solo. Boring that way to me.