Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Pink Eye]

Pardon monsieur, but what does "busted class" mean exactly? Yeah, eldritch scoundrel was my second bet, sneak attack is so hilariously op that taking a class without it seems like you're gimping yourself.

>Busted class
He's implying the class is strong.

 

[Desiderius]

Pardon monsieur, but what does "busted class" mean exactly? Yeah, eldritch scoundrel was my second bet, sneak attack is so hilariously op that taking a class without it seems like you're gimping yourself.

Sneak Attack isn't hilariously OP. It's about average for this game, and often unreliable when you most need it.

Ninj is my Slayer MC who can't sneak these Demons:

 

[santino27]

Two more questions for +1,5K hours playas:

1. What's the selling point of an archaeologist? I see it mentioned a lot, but it seems kinda sucky compared to vanilla bard?

I use archaeologist (and dd 4) as a different way to get uncanny dodge and mirror image for my monk 1/shield-bashing slayer x. Again, far from OP, but I like chars that feel fairly well rounded.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Started getting into the kingdom management. It's a lot to take in, but not overwhelming. When I was younger I had always wished there was more to the strongholds in BG2, so it feels like this may be what I asked for. I refused the guild leaders offer for BP. I've got nearly 10K after selling my loot to the Storyteller, bringing me to about 30K. I have yet to sell all my other loot at the other merchants. I should be able to buy quite a decent sum of BP. Regongar is testing my patience. I've spoken with him not more than three times, and each and every time he opens up with some unprovoked and shameless faggotry. He's supposedly some gritty, weaponized, slave with rage in his heritage, yet all of his opening comments are about wanting to kiss me. What? It's very out of place and jarring. He's on notice for exile. That aside, the DLC companion seems more interesting than I originally supposed. There may soon be a vacancy for her to fill.

 

[ArchAngel]

No matter what you think about others but Linzi is just the cutest..

Spoiler

except when she robs you :D

Spoiler

Or leaves you in endgame :D

I never understood that though. Why a damn book. WHY A BOOK! WHHHY! BEST BARD! A BOOK! Still pissed about that.

In my first run of engame I had her in my party

Spoiler

and didn't really have a replacement for her heh. I got used to massive bonuses from Good Hope+Bard Song. I also multiclassed her into archer EK and she did very good damage. I had to take Ekun instead and while his ranged output was similar he had none of the party wide buffs she would provide

Yup.

Spoiler

Losing her crippled my first playthrough, as she was by far my best bard. She had access to all the good buffs and spells. It wasn't very fun losing her like that. I couldn't even get a replacement because I had grown so dependent on her. I mean how could I not? I used her through the whole game.

This game is Revenge of the Bard.

EK isn’t very good because you’re still stuck with slow spell progression and you lose song DC and the good high level songs. She can do damage fine on routine fights as a straight Bard. On hard fights she should be casting anyway.

EK archer is as valid as pure bard. As pure bard you need to go casting, with EK you can go archery feats. You lose a bit with weaker bard song but you get more with full BAB and more feats. And you don't lose that much casting, you are casting buffs anyways because you are focusing into Dex and not Charisma. Bard song + Good Hope + Haste all comes from that bard and she does same or more than Ekun. And then if you do need it she can buff even more or dispel shit that Ekun cannot.
Of course you can use both Ekun and Linzi.

 

[ArchAngel]

This time I found a bug that makes us stronger. Invulnerable Rager class has innate DR. And if you pick up Increased DR rage power it gets added to this DR even if you are not in Rage :D
By lvl 20 this character can have 16 DR vs all damage because of this.

 

[Desiderius]

No matter what you think about others but Linzi is just the cutest..

Spoiler

except when she robs you :D

Spoiler

Or leaves you in endgame :D

I never understood that though. Why a damn book. WHY A BOOK! WHHHY! BEST BARD! A BOOK! Still pissed about that.

In my first run of engame I had her in my party

Spoiler

and didn't really have a replacement for her heh. I got used to massive bonuses from Good Hope+Bard Song. I also multiclassed her into archer EK and she did very good damage. I had to take Ekun instead and while his ranged output was similar he had none of the party wide buffs she would provide

Yup.

Spoiler

Losing her crippled my first playthrough, as she was by far my best bard. She had access to all the good buffs and spells. It wasn't very fun losing her like that. I couldn't even get a replacement because I had grown so dependent on her. I mean how could I not? I used her through the whole game.

This game is Revenge of the Bard.

EK isn’t very good because you’re still stuck with slow spell progression and you lose song DC and the good high level songs. She can do damage fine on routine fights as a straight Bard. On hard fights she should be casting anyway.

EK archer is as valid as pure bard. As pure bard you need to go casting, with EK you can go archery feats. You lose a bit with weaker bard song but you get more with full BAB and more feats. And you don't lose that much casting, you are casting buffs anyways because you are focusing into Dex and not Charisma. Bard song + Good Hope + Haste all comes from that bard and she does same or more than Ekun. And then if you do need it she can buff even more or dispel shit that Ekun cannot.
Of course you can use both Ekun and Linzi.

Other than Good Hope Bards aren't really buffers. Early game their Enchantments own weak Will mobs (Slow is a beast all game), late their Sonic attacks own weak Fort. Ranged puts you in poor position for your songs/cone spells and you lose DEX to damage/another Outflanker.

In any case, even if you want to go ranged (late game Sense Vitals spam isn't bad) EK buys you next to nothing while losing a ton. EK + slow spell progression = bad. You'd be better off just going EA if you're determined to go that way. I've got Jub at Alch 16/Freebooter 4 so that's another thing you can do if you want the extra attack on the top end.

 

[Pink Eye]

This time I found a bug that makes us stronger. Invulnerable Rager class has innate DR. And if you pick up Increased DR rage power it gets added to this DR even if you are not in Rage :D
By lvl 20 this character can have 16 DR vs all damage because of this.

WUUUT. Thanks for sharing this. I'm going have some fun with Invulnerable Rage on the DLC dungeon.

 

[ArchAngel]

No matter what you think about others but Linzi is just the cutest..

Spoiler

except when she robs you :D

Spoiler

Or leaves you in endgame :D

I never understood that though. Why a damn book. WHY A BOOK! WHHHY! BEST BARD! A BOOK! Still pissed about that.

In my first run of engame I had her in my party

Spoiler

and didn't really have a replacement for her heh. I got used to massive bonuses from Good Hope+Bard Song. I also multiclassed her into archer EK and she did very good damage. I had to take Ekun instead and while his ranged output was similar he had none of the party wide buffs she would provide

Yup.

Spoiler

Losing her crippled my first playthrough, as she was by far my best bard. She had access to all the good buffs and spells. It wasn't very fun losing her like that. I couldn't even get a replacement because I had grown so dependent on her. I mean how could I not? I used her through the whole game.

This game is Revenge of the Bard.

EK isn’t very good because you’re still stuck with slow spell progression and you lose song DC and the good high level songs. She can do damage fine on routine fights as a straight Bard. On hard fights she should be casting anyway.

EK archer is as valid as pure bard. As pure bard you need to go casting, with EK you can go archery feats. You lose a bit with weaker bard song but you get more with full BAB and more feats. And you don't lose that much casting, you are casting buffs anyways because you are focusing into Dex and not Charisma. Bard song + Good Hope + Haste all comes from that bard and she does same or more than Ekun. And then if you do need it she can buff even more or dispel shit that Ekun cannot.
Of course you can use both Ekun and Linzi.

Other than Good Hope Bards aren't really buffers. Early game their Enchantments own weak Will mobs (Slow is a beast all game), late their Sonic attacks own weak Fort. Ranged puts you in poor position for your songs/cone spells and you lose DEX to damage/another Outflanker.

In any case, even if you want to go ranged (late game Sense Vitals spam isn't bad) EK buys you next to nothing while losing a ton. EK + slow spell progression = bad. You'd be better off just going EA if you're determined to go that way. I've got Jub at Alch 16/Freebooter 4 so that's another thing you can do if you want the extra attack on the top end.

What slow spell progression are you talking about? EK only loses 1 spell level. At worst you will lose 2 spell levels if you also decide to take 1 fighter level so you meet prerequisites faster.
EK gives you better BAB, more attacks and more life and bonus feats. You are not dependant on your song to make up for your medium BAB bards get. Also you will be able to get both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus.
EA is a completely different class. Bards are better overall for party than Maguses. This is a buffer bard that also does as much damage with a bow as a ranger or a fighter.

Edit: And as you said you can build a caster bard if you go full charisma and get spell focus feats. It will be decent but not as good as wizards due to not being able to go beyond lvl 6 spells and as result having lower DC of spells.
But archer bard is also very good and gives you as much dps as a standard archer while also buffing the whole party.
If you got a dedicated archer in the party I would go caster bard as you said but if not, this version of the bard can do both roles.

 

[Desiderius]

Pardon monsieur, but what does "busted class" mean exactly? Yeah, eldritch scoundrel was my second bet, sneak attack is so hilariously op that taking a class without it seems like you're gimping yourself.

Sneak Attack isn't hilariously OP. It's about average for this game, and often unreliable when you most need it.

Ninj is my Slayer MC who can't sneak these Demons:

View attachment 11696

Big damage numbers from Harrim rocking Destructo Aura.

 

[ArchAngel]

I must say that Thundercaller Bard is really OP. Almost nothing in the game is immune to Stun. Thunder call can be spammed like crazy, has big AoE and does good damage and stuns. This character turned so many battles into easy mode because of this ability. And in addition to this you still got all your normal bard abilities and songs lol.

 

[Desiderius]

No matter what you think about others but Linzi is just the cutest..

Spoiler

except when she robs you :D

Spoiler

Or leaves you in endgame :D

I never understood that though. Why a damn book. WHY A BOOK! WHHHY! BEST BARD! A BOOK! Still pissed about that.

In my first run of engame I had her in my party

Spoiler

and didn't really have a replacement for her heh. I got used to massive bonuses from Good Hope+Bard Song. I also multiclassed her into archer EK and she did very good damage. I had to take Ekun instead and while his ranged output was similar he had none of the party wide buffs she would provide

Yup.

Spoiler

Losing her crippled my first playthrough, as she was by far my best bard. She had access to all the good buffs and spells. It wasn't very fun losing her like that. I couldn't even get a replacement because I had grown so dependent on her. I mean how could I not? I used her through the whole game.

This game is Revenge of the Bard.

EK isn’t very good because you’re still stuck with slow spell progression and you lose song DC and the good high level songs. She can do damage fine on routine fights as a straight Bard. On hard fights she should be casting anyway.

EK archer is as valid as pure bard. As pure bard you need to go casting, with EK you can go archery feats. You lose a bit with weaker bard song but you get more with full BAB and more feats. And you don't lose that much casting, you are casting buffs anyways because you are focusing into Dex and not Charisma. Bard song + Good Hope + Haste all comes from that bard and she does same or more than Ekun. And then if you do need it she can buff even more or dispel shit that Ekun cannot.
Of course you can use both Ekun and Linzi.

Other than Good Hope Bards aren't really buffers. Early game their Enchantments own weak Will mobs (Slow is a beast all game), late their Sonic attacks own weak Fort. Ranged puts you in poor position for your songs/cone spells and you lose DEX to damage/another Outflanker.

In any case, even if you want to go ranged (late game Sense Vitals spam isn't bad) EK buys you next to nothing while losing a ton. EK + slow spell progression = bad. You'd be better off just going EA if you're determined to go that way. I've got Jub at Alch 16/Freebooter 4 so that's another thing you can do if you want the extra attack on the top end.

What slow spell progression are you talking about? EK only loses 1 spell level. At worst you will lose 2 spell levels if you also decide to take 1 fighter level so you meet prerequisites faster.
EK gives you better BAB, more attacks and more life and bonus feats. You are not dependant on your song to make up for your medium BAB bards get. Also you will be able to get both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus.
EA is a completely different class. Bards are better overall for party than Maguses. This is a buffer bard that also does as much damage with a bow as a ranger or a fighter.

Edit: And as you said you can build a caster bard if you go full charisma and get spell focus feats. It will be decent but not as good as wizards due to not being able to go beyond lvl 6 spells and as result having lower DC of spells.
But archer bard is also very good and gives you as much dps as a standard archer while also buffing the whole party.
If you got a dedicated archer in the party I would go caster bard as you said but if not, this version of the bard can do both roles.

Bard has slow spell progression. EK gets progression of base class unless I’m mistaken. EK gives you one or two more BAB unless you’re utterly butchering your Bard like InEffect does. You get the same amount of feats, plus a wider selection, due to Bard talents. Life is negligible at best - if you’re getting hit you’re already losing and if you want extra life it’s way easier to cast an Aid spell or use Inspire Greatness than to bork your whole build.

Comparing to Wiz is Apples and Oranges. What matters is can you land enough spells to be worth it vs plinking with your bow.

Absolutely, especially if you focus on AoEs like Slow and use Dirge to debuff saves.

 

[Pink Eye]

I must say that Thundercaller Bard is really OP. Almost nothing in the game is immune to Stun. Thunder call can be spammed like crazy, has big AoE and does good damage and stuns. This character turned so many battles into easy mode because of this ability. And in addition to this you still got all your normal bard abilities and songs lol.

Yeah. I used the Thundercaller a lot, back when I completed the Varnhold DLC on unfair. It was an okay bard, it brings some nice utility and offense AoE to the team.

 

[ArchAngel]

No matter what you think about others but Linzi is just the cutest..

Spoiler

except when she robs you :D

Spoiler

Or leaves you in endgame :D

I never understood that though. Why a damn book. WHY A BOOK! WHHHY! BEST BARD! A BOOK! Still pissed about that.

In my first run of engame I had her in my party

Spoiler

and didn't really have a replacement for her heh. I got used to massive bonuses from Good Hope+Bard Song. I also multiclassed her into archer EK and she did very good damage. I had to take Ekun instead and while his ranged output was similar he had none of the party wide buffs she would provide

Yup.

Spoiler

Losing her crippled my first playthrough, as she was by far my best bard. She had access to all the good buffs and spells. It wasn't very fun losing her like that. I couldn't even get a replacement because I had grown so dependent on her. I mean how could I not? I used her through the whole game.

This game is Revenge of the Bard.

EK isn’t very good because you’re still stuck with slow spell progression and you lose song DC and the good high level songs. She can do damage fine on routine fights as a straight Bard. On hard fights she should be casting anyway.

EK archer is as valid as pure bard. As pure bard you need to go casting, with EK you can go archery feats. You lose a bit with weaker bard song but you get more with full BAB and more feats. And you don't lose that much casting, you are casting buffs anyways because you are focusing into Dex and not Charisma. Bard song + Good Hope + Haste all comes from that bard and she does same or more than Ekun. And then if you do need it she can buff even more or dispel shit that Ekun cannot.
Of course you can use both Ekun and Linzi.

Other than Good Hope Bards aren't really buffers. Early game their Enchantments own weak Will mobs (Slow is a beast all game), late their Sonic attacks own weak Fort. Ranged puts you in poor position for your songs/cone spells and you lose DEX to damage/another Outflanker.

In any case, even if you want to go ranged (late game Sense Vitals spam isn't bad) EK buys you next to nothing while losing a ton. EK + slow spell progression = bad. You'd be better off just going EA if you're determined to go that way. I've got Jub at Alch 16/Freebooter 4 so that's another thing you can do if you want the extra attack on the top end.

What slow spell progression are you talking about? EK only loses 1 spell level. At worst you will lose 2 spell levels if you also decide to take 1 fighter level so you meet prerequisites faster.
EK gives you better BAB, more attacks and more life and bonus feats. You are not dependant on your song to make up for your medium BAB bards get. Also you will be able to get both Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus.
EA is a completely different class. Bards are better overall for party than Maguses. This is a buffer bard that also does as much damage with a bow as a ranger or a fighter.

Edit: And as you said you can build a caster bard if you go full charisma and get spell focus feats. It will be decent but not as good as wizards due to not being able to go beyond lvl 6 spells and as result having lower DC of spells.
But archer bard is also very good and gives you as much dps as a standard archer while also buffing the whole party.
If you got a dedicated archer in the party I would go caster bard as you said but if not, this version of the bard can do both roles.

Bard has slow spell progression. EK gets progression of base class unless I’m mistaken. EK gives you one or two more BAB unless you’re utterly butchering your Bard like InEffect does. You get the same amount of feats, plus a wider selection, due to Bard talents. Life is negligible at best - if you’re getting hit you’re already losing and if you want extra life it’s way easier to cast an Aid spell or use Inspire Greatness than to bork your whole build.

Comparing to Wiz is Apples and Oranges. What matters is can you land enough spells to be worth it vs plinking with your bow.

Absolutely, especially if you focus on AoEs like Slow and use Dirge to debuff saves.

Except you are not plinking away with your bow, you do as much damage any other archer. Good Hope + Inspire Courage (+2) gives +4 damage and Arcane Strike will give you +4 damage as well. You can pick up same feats like Ranger or Fighter.
In other words you do a lot of damage while at same time buffing your whole party and still being able to influence battles with Grease, Confusion and other spells. And due to having very good Bab (you only lose 3 bab by lvl 20 you will be hitting a lot).
Your argument only makes sense if you consider archers bad.

 

[Desiderius]

I must say that Thundercaller Bard is really OP. Almost nothing in the game is immune to Stun. Thunder call can be spammed like crazy, has big AoE and does good damage and stuns. This character turned so many battles into easy mode because of this ability. And in addition to this you still got all your normal bard abilities and songs lol.

Im seriously considering trying it on Val for my last run and just retiring Dirge + Shatter altogether. OP.

To me Thundercall just looks like Sonic Burst, which Bards and Clerics already get. I have a feeling your definition of good damage and mine diverge somewhat. It would be a better game if I got down to your level (and played Unfair without double damage maybe).

 

[Desiderius]

Except you are not plinking away with your bow, you do as much damage any other archer. Good Hope + Inspire Courage (+2) gives +4 damage and Arcane Strike will give you +4 damage as well. You can pick up same feats like Ranger or Fighter.
In other words you do a lot of damage while at same time buffing your whole party and still being able to influence battles with Grease, Confusion and other spells. And due to having very good Bab (you only lose 3 bab by lvl 20 you will be hitting a lot).
Your argument only makes sense if you consider archers bad.

I’m the biggest advocate on here for archers, but no Bards aren’t close to doing Slayer/Fighter/Rogue damage from range without Studied Target/Sneaks/Weapon Training even if you butcher the whole class for a couple (and it is exactly two) BAB. It's a given that you'll be getting Courage from somewhere, so that really doesn't count.

Your Arcane Strike comment suggests you're having the same problem InEffect did - you don't know how to keep buff and debuff songs up at the same time. You don't take Arcane Strike because at lvl 13 you start getting Swift Action songs which lets you use Lingering Preformance to keep multiple songs up at once while also moving and casting spells. Move action performance is really clunky because most of your spells are close range so you need to move a lot.

I may try ranged Bard for that exact reason (I used one for Varnhold and it was fine), but EK is just bad news. Inspire Heroics is nuts!

Here's what tank Bard 14 Linzi's been doing:

 

[Trashos]

Found a belt of giant strength +6 at the barbarian merchant, while investigating the Varnhold Vanishing thing. Problem is it costs 70'000, which is about all my money. What do you guys suggest, should I?...

 

[ArchAngel]

Found a belt of giant strength +6 at the barbarian merchant, while investigating the Varnhold Vanishing thing. Problem is it costs 70'000, which is about all my money. What do you guys suggest, should I?...

No. Those drop like candy a bit later.

 

[Desiderius]

Found a belt of giant strength +6 at the barbarian merchant, while investigating the Varnhold Vanishing thing. Problem is it costs 70'000, which is about all my money. What do you guys suggest, should I?...

You should be getting those for free soon. +4/+4 belts are better anyway. There's a Mature Athlach somewhere near there wearing a +6, or else the big Zombie in Collapsed Passage south of you.

 

[LannTheStupid]

the level of social retardation I'm "role playing".

If you're role playing a social retard then why are you talking to your companions? Your "infodumps" require active choice of selecting at least 5 menu items and quite enthusiastic pressing of the "continue" button. In this case you're role playing a good squad commander who cares about their troops.

 

[Desiderius]

Found a belt of giant strength +6 at the barbarian merchant, while investigating the Varnhold Vanishing thing. Problem is it costs 70'000, which is about all my money. What do you guys suggest, should I?...

Make sure you buy the recipe and Mastodon Meat though. Can’t find the recipe anywhere else and there’s not much Mastodon Meat either if you like that recipe.

 

[panda]

Oh god

 

[ArchAngel]

Wtf. I never seen something do that much damage in single hit.. Siroket was erased from history :D

 

[Yosharian]

It's a given that you'll be getting Courage from somewhere, so that really doesn't count

wat

 

[Perkel]

Wait, they added turn based mode ? I started to play it on release but dropped it for them to fix bugs and shit. If this has turn based mode i am fucking in.