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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Yosharian

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Nice portraits!
I loved the portraits.
Then I realized it was a harem.

I dislike time limits in general, because I want to infinitely fart around, but I found the time limits in the game to be really generous if I attended to the main quest ASAP and then farted around. It reminded me of Tyranny, where there was a much maligned time limit that you really had to make an effort to reach. The only one that was irritating was finishing Vanishing then immediately jumping into Betrayer/Hour.

Of course, the first time you play you have no idea there is time to fart around after each Main Quest segment.
Yes and this is a fail in my opinion, the game needs to inform you that you're against the clock if this is the case
>game needs to inform you that you're against the clock
Pathfinder does. Kesten will remind you to deal with the main quest troubles, when you start running out of time. The game also spams you with problem cards if you take too long of a time.
Well ok but those fucking problem cards are a pain to deal with because by the time you've clocked that the game is trying to tell you something, you've already wasted a ton of resources on several of them. I'd prefer a more obvious hint than something that looks like a standard event but is actually an endlessly repeating 'warning'
 

Jarpie

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I haven't played it yet though.

You can burn time up easily on the world map (need to rest every day, lots of travelling) and through "adviser upgrade" which take 2 weeks each and you'll do dozens of them over the game.

The main limit of 1600 days is pretty hard to hit but the chapter limits can creep up on you easily, especially if you are exploring the game world and resting frequently to recover between the difficult fights.

Hmm I'm not sure I buy that time limits are 'antithetical' to RPGs

When you hear RPG you don't think "time limits" otherwise they'd be more common. They are super rare in the genre though.

I'm sure you could make a fun football game where players who go out of bounds fall into a moat of piranhas, but that wouldn't really be football anymore.

spend 100 years saving that Mario princess

Not an RPG. Mario RPG, however, has no time limits.

As for "great level design," I've actually posted this before:

atYy0zh.jpg


How on earth could you ever expect full grown adults with skills and stats to ever overcome such an insurmountable obstacle?!?!?

There's way to get inside the fort on the left side, you don't have to go through front gates.
 

Grampy_Bone

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here's way to get inside the fort on the left side, you don't have to go through front gates.

Yeah I know, but either route still entails fighting your way through the bandits. There's no true stealth route. You can recruit helpers to even the odds of the final fight, so that's something. This is actually peak level design for Pathfinder. Which is pretty sad.

I've made this point again and again, but i understand the devs of a CRPG can't include unlimited options but then they have an obligation to give me options that aren't retarded. This on top of "random nobody" bandits with perfect stat/feat distribution (18 str/dex, power attacking 2-handed raging barbarians with lethal stance / dual wield +2d6 sneak attacking rogues buffed by bards and spamming disabling alchemist bombs) while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.

FWI, I would never pit the party against random grunt NPCs with Player character class levels, especially with a stat over 15, especially when the party is levels 1-3. The game just wasn't made for this.

I still made it through the whole area without resting. I'm not saying it's impossible, just stupid. Stat bloat is a stupid way to increase difficulty. Make better encounters, not just force the player to save scum.
 

Daidre

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FWI, I would never pit the party against random grunt NPCs with Player character class levels, especially with a stat over 15, especially when the party is levels 1-3. The game just wasn't made for this.
Yeah, proper Pathfinder GM should never distract his players from larping and relaxed beer drinking with challenging combat.
 

Pink Eye

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>while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.
I actually had to double check this, but Valerie does have good feats. She has dodge and toughness at level 1, pretty decent. Only problem is her stat distribution. Aside from stats, once you reach level two you are able to customize her as you want. My favorite causal build is bard Valerie. She has high CHA and makes for a better bard than Linzi. You can also turn her into a sorcerer if you want.
 

Daidre

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Daidre Oi Similodon, quick question. What level do you usually do tuskgutter on unfair?
I usually do it with MC level 5 and 3 others around lvl 3-4. But I play Unfair with skill check xp sharing off and always have Trickery and Persuasion on my MC. This way, I hit lvl 3 at Oleg's after big bandit fight.
 

Yosharian

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>while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.
I actually had to double check this, but Valerie does have good feats. She has dodge and toughness at level 1, pretty decent. Only problem is her stat distribution. Aside from stats, once you reach level two you are able to customize her as you want. My favorite causal build is bard Valerie. She has high CHA and makes for a better bard than Linzi. You can also turn her into a sorcerer if you want.
Dodge and Toughness are useful for gaining access to Stalwart Defender, and that's it. +1 AC for a feat is trash, Toughness is an average feat at best. It's worth taking lategame when there's nothing else meaningful to take and it actually gives a good chunk of HP.

I homebrewed Dodge to give an additional +1 at 6/11/16 BAB, that makes it just about decent, and Toughness got an extra +3 every 5 levels, again makes it just about decent.
 

Pink Eye

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Daidre Oi Similodon, quick question. What level do you usually do tuskgutter on unfair?
I usually do it with MC level 5 and 3 others around lvl 3-4. But I play Unfair with skill check xp sharing off and always have Trickery and Persuasion on my MC. This way, I hit lvl 3 at Oleg's after big bandit fight.
Makes sense. Looks like I was right, it is only doable at around level 3 or so. Been testing a monk build at level 2 and seeing how it stacks against Tuskgutter. Suffice to say, it doesn't stack as much. Well, a strength monk anyways. Might experiment with a dexterity based monk then.
 

Pink Eye

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>while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.
I actually had to double check this, but Valerie does have good feats. She has dodge and toughness at level 1, pretty decent. Only problem is her stat distribution. Aside from stats, once you reach level two you are able to customize her as you want. My favorite causal build is bard Valerie. She has high CHA and makes for a better bard than Linzi. You can also turn her into a sorcerer if you want.
Dodge and Toughness are useful for gaining access to Stalwart Defender, and that's it. +1 AC for a feat is trash, Toughness is an average feat at best. It's worth taking lategame when there's nothing else meaningful to take and it actually gives a good chunk of HP.
Toughness is okay though? It gives more hit points, and scales nicely with high constitution users. On unfair where you can easily get one shot, having a high health pool minimizes the rng of it. Dodge is a free plus one to AC and stacks, it isn't trash. Her high constitution isn't bad either. It helps with fortitude saves, which helps with spiders swarms and other enemies that inflict poison. Only bad thing is her low strength.
 

Yosharian

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>while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.
I actually had to double check this, but Valerie does have good feats. She has dodge and toughness at level 1, pretty decent. Only problem is her stat distribution. Aside from stats, once you reach level two you are able to customize her as you want. My favorite causal build is bard Valerie. She has high CHA and makes for a better bard than Linzi. You can also turn her into a sorcerer if you want.
Dodge and Toughness are useful for gaining access to Stalwart Defender, and that's it. +1 AC for a feat is trash, Toughness is an average feat at best. It's worth taking lategame when there's nothing else meaningful to take and it actually gives a good chunk of HP.
Toughness is okay though? It gives more hit points, and scales nicely with high constitution users. On unfair where you can easily get one shot, having a high health pool minimizes the rng of it. Dodge is a free plus one to AC and stacks, it isn't trash. Her high constitution isn't bad either. It helps with fortitude saves, which helps with spiders swarms and other enemies that inflict poison. Only bad thing is her low strength.
Yes, it's 'OK'. That's what I said. That doesn't make it a good early feat. Frankly, Toughness is pretty close to useless early game anyway, especially in a CRPG where you can just reload if you get a string of unlucky incoming crits.

If you don't think Dodge is a trash feat then I don't know what to say to you. +1 AC is simply not good value for a feat.

No-one said her high CON was a negative thing so I'm not sure why you're talking about that. It's very easy to see that those points would be a hell of a lot better if they were put into her Strength, though.
 

Daidre

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If you don't think Dodge is a trash feat then I don't know what to say to you. +1 AC is simply not good value for a feat.

Dodge is prerequisite for the Crane line and that fact alone inflates its early value for any tank build, including Valerie - until +2 and higher Tower Shield appear in Varnhold, she is better off with Crane Wing + Shiled spell.

(bugged Crane Wing also works with any shields too if someone is willing to abuse this)
 
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Darth Canoli

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You can burn time up easily on the world map (need to rest every day, lots of travelling) and through "adviser upgrade" which take 2 weeks each and you'll do dozens of them over the game.

The main limit of 1600 days is pretty hard to hit but the chapter limits can creep up on you easily, especially if you are exploring the game world and resting frequently to recover between the difficult fights.

The problem isn't much the time limit but the necessity to rest every fucking day.
Add traveling time to this and you sometimes have to rest multiple times on the way to a shitty location with barely any content.

Luckily, the bag of tricks mod fixes all of the above (increasing time between the necessary rests and taking less time to travel).
Only drawback is you'll be a sitting duck waiting for the next event once you cleaned every map but this is bad design too, you should be able to force the plot to unravel if you want to, this is just boring.
 
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Yosharian

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If you don't think Dodge is a trash feat then I don't know what to say to you. +1 AC is simply not good value for a feat.

Dodge is prerequisite for the Crane line and that fact alone inflates its early value for any tank build, including Valerie - until +2 and higher Tower Shield appear in Varnhold, she is better off with Crane Wing + Shiled spell.

(bugged Crane Wing also works with any shields too if someone willing to abuse this)
That's just feat tax, that doesn't make Dodge a good feat, Crane Style is a decent feat because it effectively gives +2 AB and +1 AC, Dodge is objectively not a good feat compared to Crane Style.

Saying 'oh well it leads to a nice feat' isn't a defense of the feat itself. It's not a good feat.
 

Pink Eye

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>>That doesn't make it a good early feat.
In early unfair part of the trick is minimizing RNG as much as physically possible via character building, to the point that RNG doesn't become that much of a factor. Two big ways to achieve this is by stacking AC as high as possible, and by having decent health. Health is used as a contingency in the event that enemies do bypass your defenses. Ideally you would want 20+ AC at level 1, and 30+ AC at around level 3. This is achievable by many ways, one of which includes having dodge, so no, not a trash feat. For health you would want at least 17+ hit points. Still won't be enough, but what can you do, that's just early unfair for you. You can only minimize as best as you can.

Having around 16-18 Con + 3 from toughness would result in 17-18 HP. Quite potent. Most enemies should usually hit for 10+ in early unfair, so already you've minimized RNG, by ensuring that your character will be able to survive at least one hit. Crits will still get you though. For every hit die beyond 3 you gain an additional +1 hp. Seems useless, but it adds up, and it scales throughout the game.

>>you can just reload if you get a string of unlucky incoming crits.
Brother, I've been playing Unfair for as long as I can remember. That's not good advice. You should be trying to minimize the amount of times you have to reload, by minimizing the effects that RNG has on you.
 

Pink Eye

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>That's just feat tax, that doesn't make Dodge a good feat
Dodge is a good feat because it stacks with itself and other AC bonuses.
 
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Grampy_Bone

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Yeah, proper Pathfinder GM should never distract his players from larping and relaxed beer drinking with challenging combat.

D&D is weird. Combat is quite lethal from levels 1-3 and one bad roll can spell doom. Players have access to little in the way of equipment, spells run out quick, and stats are hugely important. Dying due to RNG sucks and isn't fun.

At higher levels the players become rather invincible and it becomes difficult to challenge them. Class powers are plentiful and items cover all weaknesses. At that point by all means, bring on the twink builds.

Consider the encounter with the Man Eater Troll. The party is likely to be level 2-3 when they encounter it. A troll is already CR 5 and pretty scary with multiple attacks and regeneration, with good rolls it can kill one party member per round. But that's just not good enough for Owlcat, they have to double it's HP and damage. Why? The troll is easily brought down with spells like Hideous laughter but why make it so punishing it forces a reload if it makes it's will save?

If I wanted to make that encounter hard I would give the troll some terrain advantage, let it use an ambush, have it sunder/trip/overrun etc. Just bloating its stats is lazy.

In another location there is a Dryad who has a specific AI routine; she casts spike stones and then spams call lightning. That's actually a nice combo that forces the player to think on their feet, call lighting hurts but is unlikely to one-shot anyone unless you are playing stupid. It's better than just giving her free 50+hp because reasons.

>while the player is saddled with gimpy theme builds like Valerie the """beautiful""" atheist. Holy shit, can I hand over my companions and recruit "bandit brawler #3" instead? He actually picked pretty smart feats.
I actually had to double check this, but Valerie does have good feats. She has dodge and toughness at level 1, pretty decent. Only problem is her stat distribution. Aside from stats, once you reach level two you are able to customize her as you want. My favorite causal build is bard Valerie. She has high CHA and makes for a better bard than Linzi. You can also turn her into a sorcerer if you want.

Giving the player a low-str tank with a tower shield (-2 attack rolls) against enemies with 18+ AC is a cruel joke. Combined with Amiri's ginormous sword (another -2 attack) and her crummy stats (13 dex lol) both of the fighters available have gimmick builds which are woefully ill-equipped in the game they are made for. It's really baffling. Dodge and Toughness just add insult to injury.

Then you fight bandits with min/maxed 20 Str, power attack, weapon focus + 2-handed weapons, precise shot, rapid shot, and 18 dex archers, 18 dex dual wield enemy rogues with accomplished sneak attack, etc. etc.

So the first thing you do is take away their theme builds and give them normal weapons and armor. Valerie needs attack bonus more than AC and Amiri needs it more than damage dice. What is going on? Why are all these builds so bad out of the box when the bad guys are perfectly set up? Yes you can salvage every party member but you should be able to use them in their intended way without them being so incompetent at it. Do you really think the developers intended you to make Valerie a bard or a sorc?

It would be like if Minsc in BG2 had 14 Str but high Int and you were supposed to dual-class him to mage. WTF.
 

Daidre

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It would be like if Minsc in BG2 had 14 Str but high Int and you were supposed to dual-class him to mage. WTF.

It is a class choice that makes Minsc suck - Ranger is nothing more than a poor man's Fighter without grand-mastery under AD&D 2.5 and his weapon choice (2-handed sword) nullifies only useful class feature he has, free dual-wielding.

Imho, BG 2 is extremely bad example when trying to prove ineptness of P:K companions. Almost everyone in BG has some critical flaw, sometimes several. STR, for example, on some (multi-) fighters:
- Jaheira, 15
- Keldorn, 17 (horrible dex)
- Mazzy, 15
- Valigar, 17 (ranger too, can't wear heavy armor)

And 17 in older system is nowhere close to Pathfinder's 17, it translates into pathetic +1 Attack & Damage that much closer to 12-14 in 3.5 era.

And among those with 18 STR:
- Anomen (horrible dex, no longer levels as fighter)
- Korgan (best fighter in the game, still bad dex and batshit evil crazy)
- Minsk (bad dex, shitty class)
 

Shadenuat

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BG itemization and spell system is strong enough to bring any companion to almost god tier in a few items or casts (or, when it comes to clerics, a single spell). Strength alone gives whole party and every summoned creature 18/75. And it's an early level aoe spell. Same with potions of Giants(s) etc.
 

hell bovine

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It would be like if Minsc in BG2 had 14 Str but high Int and you were supposed to dual-class him to mage. WTF.

It is a class choice that makes Minsc suck - Ranger is nothing more than a poor man's Fighter without grand-mastery under AD&D 2.5 and his weapon choice (2-handed sword) nullifies only useful class feature he has, free dual-wielding.

Imho, BG 2 is extremely bad example when trying to prove ineptness of P:K companions. Almost everyone in BG has some critical flaw, sometimes several. STR, for example, on some (multi-) fighters:
- Jaheira, 15
- Keldorn, 17 (horrible dex)
- Mazzy, 15
- Valigar, 17 (ranger too, can't wear heavy armor)

And 17 in older system is nowhere close to Pathfinder's 17, it translates into pathetic +1 Attack & Damage that much closer to 12-14 in 3.5 era.

And among those with 18 STR:
- Anomen (horrible dex, no longer levels as fighter)
- Korgan (best fighter in the game, still bad dex and batshit evil crazy)
- Minsk (bad dex, shitty class)
Those "critical flaws" of BG2 NPCs have far less impact on the game that you are making it to be, because BG2 a) doesn't feature hordes of min-maxed enemies as Efe pointed out, b) doesn't get combat-heavy until later on and c) is easy enough that it has been finished with a level 1 character.

If the Pathfinder devs were aiming for "imperfect" NPCs similar to BG2, then they should have created a city like Athkatla, populated with combat-lite content. But instead they went for the IWD "fight them hordes" design, which is fine in itself, but IWD doesn't saddle you with inept NPCs at the start.
 

Daidre

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BG itemization and spell system is strong enough to bring any companion to almost god tier in a few items or casts (or, when it comes to clerics, a single spell). Strength alone gives whole party and every summoned creature 18/75. And it's an early level aoe spell. Same with potions of Giants(s) etc.

In the same you can cast Bull's Strength on Valerie bringing her to solid 18.
In the same way P:K itemization and spell-casting is so ridiculous you can make a god out every companion and pet dragon out of Ekun's dog.

but are BG enemies as optimized as kingmakers?
BG 2 enemies don't even abide to the same rules as player characters. They have everything, from level/stat drain to instant spell-casting and magic resist, heaped on them as innate abilities. Not mentioning mages, always equipped with spell triggers Stoneskin + Protection vs Magic Weapon and (in late game) opening the fights with Time Stop - spell available to players only as scroll before addon raised the level cap.
 

Shadenuat

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If the Pathfinder devs were aiming for "imperfect" NPCs similar to BG2, then they should have created a city like Athkatla, populated with combat-lite content. But instead they went for the IWD "fight them hordes" design, which is fine in itself, but IWD doesn't saddle you with inept NPCs at the start.
Yeah, BG are much more free in what you're doing. You can max level without touching main story. BG2 also has biggest chunk of content present right away.
 

hell bovine

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BG itemization and spell system is strong enough to bring any companion to almost god tier in a few items or casts (or, when it comes to clerics, a single spell). Strength alone gives whole party and every summoned creature 18/75. And it's an early level aoe spell. Same with potions of Giants(s) etc.

In the same you can cast Bull's Strength on Valerie bringing her to solid 18.
In the same way P:K itemization and spell-casting is so ridiculous you can make a god out every companion and pet dragon out of Ekun's dog.
So has PK been finished with a level 1 character then? Since it's the same.
 

Shadenuat

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BG 2 enemies don't even abide to the same rules as player characters. They have everything, from level/stat drain to instant spell-casting and magic resist, heaped on them as innate abilities. Not mentioning mages, always equipped with spell triggers Stoneskin + Protection vs Magic Weapon and (in late game) opening the fights with Time Stop - spell available to players only as scroll before addon raised the level cap.
And u have level 1 Blindness spell. Speaking of same rules eh
:shittydog:

I mean, PK doesn't abide to same rules on anything but Easy either, and it's worse because whereas in BG it was more of an issue of knowledge, in PK it's more of an issue of raw stats.
 
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