Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Daidre]

So has PK been finished with a level 1 character then? Since it's the same.

P:K is more like BG1 + BG 2 + ToB, so its rather a question of killing Mellisan with lvl 1 character. Good luck with that.

 

[Efe]

are you implying you can kill stag lord with your lv1 party?
bonuses you count in bg arent raw stats. you learn about them and can prepare.
but stats like ac/ab you squeeze what you can already and not much to do when knowing there is a bandit up ahead which you cant evade and you can only hit %10 of the time

 

[Daidre]

are you implying you can kill stag lord with your lv1 party?

Give me enough save/loads and I will feed him to friendly Owlbear)

 

[Efe]

Granted. I hereby give you unlimited save/loads.
As for payment, write a paragraph about how bad monks are..

 

[Daidre]

As for payment, write a paragraph about how bad monks are..

That would be just mean. Like kicking a puppy only for a shock value and pure edginess.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

It would be like if Minsc in BG2 had 14 Str but high Int and you were supposed to dual-class him to mage. WTF.

It is a class choice that makes Minsc suck - Ranger is nothing more than a poor man's Fighter without grand-mastery under AD&D 2.5 and his weapon choice (2-handed sword) nullifies only useful class feature he has, free dual-wielding.

Imho, BG 2 is extremely bad example when trying to prove ineptness of P:K companions. Almost everyone in BG has some critical flaw, sometimes several. STR, for example, on some (multi-) fighters:
- Jaheira, 15
- Keldorn, 17 (horrible dex)
- Mazzy, 15
- Valigar, 17 (ranger too, can't wear heavy armor)

And 17 in older system is nowhere close to Pathfinder's 17, it translates into pathetic +1 Attack & Damage that much closer to 12-14 in 3.5 era.

And among those with 18 STR:
- Anomen (horrible dex, no longer levels as fighter)
- Korgan (best fighter in the game, still bad dex and batshit evil crazy)
- Minsk (bad dex, shitty class)

Minsc has upper tier strength which is all that really matters. He doesn't miss things in the first dungeon with the build and equipment he is given, unlike PF companions.

Keldorn gets the best weapon in the game.

Anomen is a cleric. His fighter levels are gravy.

Jaheira sucks, I'll give her to you.

Valygar has the stalker kit, I forget what he gets for it. He does kinda suck.

Aerie is available in the first side quest, cleric/mage brings versatility not available anywhere in PF

Several extremely solid mage choices, both full and multi class.

Mazzy I will give to you but she is an obvious gimmick build. Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Korgan, Edwin, and Viconia are all standouts and are also evil and cause party drama. That's the tradeoff. In PF everyone is a Mazzy-tier gimmick who also causes Korgan/Edwin-tier drama. That's garbage.

In the same you can cast Bull's Strength on Valerie bringing her to solid 18.
In the same way P:K itemization and spell-casting is so ridiculous you can make a god out every companion and pet dragon out of Ekun's dog.

In 3E/PF bonuses are additive so a character with 14 strength will never reach the potential of a character with 18 base strength.

In 2E a girdle of giant strength sets strength to 19 (+3 hit +7 damage, like having 24 strength in PF) regardless of the character's base stat. So Anomen and Keldorn's starting strength hardly matters.

There's no +10 strength item in PF, though it comes close, and even that doesn't compare to the benefit of the giant girdles. Hammer of Thunderbolts grants 25 strength (+14 damage) of course is equivalent to 38 in PF. Any items which increase strength by 28 points in PF?

PF has more variety of items and has plenty of ways to super charge your companions, so it's a fair point. But clearly BG companions are not as limited by starting stats as PF companions are.

 

[Daidre]

Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Only chapter 1 in P:K has:
1. Jaethal, good stats for almost any class, undead immunities, immortal (!)
2. Regongar, 19 STR, one of the strongest melee classes in the game and easier-to-use version of it
3. Octavia, optimized for strongest DD-caster build in the game, 19 int
Chapter 2
1. Jubilost, strong class, 95% optimal build
2. Ekun, optimized simple Archer build with trip-on-bite pet, 30+ point buy
Chapter 3
Nok-Nok, knife-master with 23 DEX, no comments

But yes, Valerie has 14 STR and Amiri's sword sucks. I'd give you that.

 

[hell bovine]

So has PK been finished with a level 1 character then? Since it's the same.

P:K is more like BG1 + BG 2 + ToB, so its rather a question of killing Mellisan with lvl 1 character. Good luck with that.

Both BG1 & 2 have been finished with a level 1 character, in original ToB you could kill Melissan with the cloudkill wand. IWD almost, from what I recall the guy got until Belhifet with a level 1 party and only added a level 2 bard for that battle.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Only chapter 1 in P:K has:
1. Jaethal, good stats for almost any class, undead immunities, immortal (!)
2. Regongar, 19 STR, one of the strongest melee classes in the game and easier-to-use version of it
3. Octavia, optimized for strongest DD-caster build in the game, 19 int
Chapter 2
1. Jubilost, strong class, 95% optimal build
2. Ekun, optimized simple Archer build with trip-on-bite pet, 30+ point buy
Chapter 3
Nok-Nok, optimized knife-master with 23 DEX, no comments

But yes, Valerie has 14 STR and Amiri's sword sucks. I'll give you that.

-Jaethal is "neither fish nor fowl." Inquisitor is an oddball class that doesn't fit a clear role. The PF party is hurting for good healers early on and she doesn't help matters being undead.

-Regongar is fine but slow grower. Magus requires intense micro to reach full effectiveness and burns out of points quickly. Not ideal for a support character in a RTwP game with hordes of enemies. Tell me most people wouldn't be better off with just a straight fighter or sorcerer. He's also chaotic evil , and you can't get rid of him, unlike BG companions who are all 100% optional.

-Octavia is good but multiclass hurts caster progression by delaying spell slots. No straight mages available in PF. Sure she's great at level 20 but you need to play her from levels 1-19 too. But she is one of the better ones. Although she has all that point buy and still dumped CON? r u srs? Transmutation is one of the weaker specialists too.

-Harrim is a lowish Wis cleric. wat? You have one job.

-Tristian is okay as a healbot (he was bugged at launch) but oh wait, he's gone now because story. Fuck you. Hope your party comp didn't depend on your healer or anything.

-Linzi is good but her Cha should be higher. 3E/PF casters are all about the casting stat. She's still never be as good as a full sorc/wizard.

-Jubilost is another odd class that requires micro and burns out of powers. He's great in the right group but again how much more effective is he than a straight archer or full mage? Given the rate of encounters he blows through his bombs in a couple fights.

-Ekun is so good I wonder if he was put into the game by mistake. Like an intern made a really effective character and the devs didn't notice until it was too late to change it.

-Nok nok is another evil character you can't ditch, a glass cannon who gets insta-gibbed by all the bruiser PF enemies.

This is the whole roster. If you don't like these character you better have the foresight to hire mercs at level 1 before the cost becomes unaffordable. Niche builds would make more sense in a game with a larger cast. Since you have to build a party from these options they should have been A. more broadly specced to fit into general archetypes and B. Not been a bunch of backstabbing a-holes who fuck things up constantly in unavoidable ways.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Magus requires intense micro

Jubilost is another odd class that requires micro

I fail to understand what's wrong with "micro" in the game. In any game.
Actually, this argument is close to what that prebuffing buffoon had: timing. You consdier time spent in game as something to be avoided. Why? This is not your work for McDonalds, this is fun. It's better if fun takes 500 hours than 5.

 

[Tigranes]

-Nok nok is another evil character you can't ditch, a glass cannon who gets insta-gibbed by all the bruiser PF enemies.

Roflmao noknok turned the entire game into easy mode

-Jubilost is another odd class that requires micro and burns out of powers. He's great in the right group but again how much more effective is he than a straight archer or full mage? Given the rate of encounters he blows through his bombs in a couple fights.

Set him up to throw like 4 bombs per turn doing splash damage and his bomb array lets him get past almost any defence combination making him especially good for single high power targets as well

Also if you run out of bombs all the time presumably you are also running out of Rages and Songs and mage spells equally fast because those guys must also be using it all every single turn right

Listen I am enjoying Kingmaker, but I have no bone to pick here, I don't think it's THE GREATEST CRPG and I think some of the praise is overblown. But a lot of your criticisms just seem to be a very specific bad experience overthought and overwrought into barking up some strange trees

The Kingmaker roster is similar to many other CRPGs - not very optimised people with sometimes very nonsensical attrib spreads covering the array of class roles unevenly, but generally still just fine to romp through most difficulty modes

 

[Efe]

Aerie is available in the first side quest, cleric/mage brings versatility not available anywhere in PF

Mystic theurge?

I fail to understand what's wrong with "micro" in the game. In any game.
Actually, this argument is close to what that prebuffing buffoon had: timing. You consdier time spent in game as something to be avoided. Why? This is not your work for McDonalds, this is fun. It's better if fun takes 500 hours than 5.

it is VERY easy to micro magus on turnbased. in rtwp i certainly dont want to pause every 6 seconds for each of characters because it breaks flow and readability of combat

 

[Tigranes]

Don't play RTwP games with 6 party members and a complex ruleset and then complain about micro

You either micro and use the systems to the fullest, or you set up half assed "AI" and operate at 50% combat efficiency, but god forbid that the game be designed for the latter

 

[Shadenuat]

You can't deny BGs allowed more party flexibility at least in terms of alignment. Simply had more companions. I do not believe that game-lasting companion stories and lol lets fuck are worth a trade off. And the more companions there are, the more there's chance there are some decent ones (like Edwin or Korgan).

I want an evil sorcerer companion. I want a paladin companion.

I dont want monk companion.

 

[LannTheStupid]

in rtwp i certainly dont want to pause every 6 seconds for each of characters because it breaks flow and readability of combat

Then you can break the game with the mod.
For me playing RTwP through the "V" button (using default settings) is fun. That is why I'm playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker; that is why I like the game; and that is why my problems with the game are very different from what the local majority have. May be you need to play something else? Phoenix Point is turn based, you know.

 

[Efe]

nah, solution is simply not to bring multiple magus

 

[Shadenuat]

solution is to just treat magus as fighter who can cast mirror image.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Half of the PF:KM companions are meant to be played as a team, and make great sense in that context. Valerie, Linzi, Tristain, Ekun, and Octavia make a very solid team to accommodate any PC, particularly if the PC is melee. The remaining NPCs let you substitute for whatever niche your are excess or lacking in.

BGs companions, particularly BG1, were less optimal than anything you'll find in Kingmaker. The difference was that Stats simply didn't matter as much in AD&D as they do in 3x systems. Once you had a few levels under your belt, the difference were negligible.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Mystic theurge?

Due to DC and save scaling, a caster who is 3 levels behind in 3E/d20 rules might as well not even have spells for the most part. The magic multiclasses being bad in 3E is one of the reasons why Pathfinder has so many hybrids in the first place.

To be fair, in 2E an elf cleric/mage was supposed to be balanced out by level caps, but no one ever played with those.

 

[Beggar]

Skipping days until the curse grows stronger and becomes the main thing is inspired by Persona 3, owlcat said it themselves.

 

[Pink Eye]

BG itemization and spell system is strong enough to bring any companion to almost god tier in a few items or casts (or, when it comes to clerics, a single spell). Strength alone gives whole party and every summoned creature 18/75. And it's an early level aoe spell. Same with potions of Giants(s) etc.

In the same you can cast Bull's Strength on Valerie bringing her to solid 18.
In the same way P:K itemization and spell-casting is so ridiculous you can make a god out every companion and pet dragon out of Ekun's dog.

So has PK been finished with a level 1 character then? Since it's the same.

That's a great fucking question. I should try that. I am probably not going to make it far. BUT it is worth trying.

 

[Pink Eye]

Granted. I hereby give you unlimited save/loads.
As for payment, write a paragraph about how bad monks are..

As for payment, write a paragraph about how bad monks are..

That would be just mean. Like kicking a puppy only for a shock value and pure edginess.

You guys are jerks, should I reiterate on monks flurry of blows, unarmed passives, AND KI powers?

 

[Pink Eye]

Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Only chapter 1 in P:K has:
1. Jaethal, good stats for almost any class, undead immunities, immortal (!)
2. Regongar, 19 STR, one of the strongest melee classes in the game and easier-to-use version of it
3. Octavia, optimized for strongest DD-caster build in the game, 19 int
Chapter 2
1. Jubilost, strong class, 95% optimal build
2. Ekun, optimized simple Archer build with trip-on-bite pet, 30+ point buy
Chapter 3
Nok-Nok, knife-master with 23 DEX, no comments

But yes, Valerie has 14 STR and Amiri's sword sucks. I'd give you that.

Yes Smilodon! Preach! Preach on the virtues of Jaethal!

 

[Sjukob]

You guys are jerks, should I reiterate on monks flurry of blows, unarmed passives, AND KI powers?

Have you tried playing sacred fist from call of the wild mod ? They get less monk stuff, but can cast divine spells up to level 6.

 

[Pink Eye]

You guys are jerks, should I reiterate on monks flurry of blows, unarmed passives, AND KI powers?

Have you tried playing sacred fist from call of the wild mod ? They get less monk stuff, but can cast divine spells up to level 6.

Oh that sounds neat. No I don't use mods. But I might consider it.