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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Yosharian

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>Completing the prologue on Unfair isn't decided by whether or not you took Toughness, that's absurd.
Oi Yosharian create a character and attempt to go through the prologue area on unfair, and tell me the results. To make it even more fun attempt it on iron man. The reason being so that you don't reload or save scum. So that you accept the rolls.

I can tell you this, there is two stats that matter, AC and Hit Points. Once an enemy goes through your AC they are going to hit you. Damage varies depending if its a sneak attack or critical attack. If they do hit, you ARE going to regret having a squishy character. Both constitution and toughness facilitates your character to survive an attack that would have otherwise put them out of commission.
I already said the feat has more value on Ironman! All that would prove is that we agree there

In PnP, and Ironman, where death actually matters, of course it's a nice feat. It could still be better though, which is why I buffed it slightly with homebrew, but I digress
 

Yosharian

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No, I'm sorry, your tank did not 'start to fall flat on their face' just because you were lacking that extra 6 HP.

She was missing ~15 (45 > 30 after respec), since I went for "Fighter needs 19 STR to be functional!" meme with 14 CON.

Precise Bombs is nice if you're doing a bomb build but if you planned on optimizing any other way then you're stuck with a relatively poor discovery.

What the hell would you build pure Alchemist for if not(!) the BOMBS?! (Sorry, emotions).

No, Smilodon is enough, but Paladins and Monks have other benefits, and Barbarian is just a shit class. And the Smilodon is just an overpowered pet, I mean if you take 6 pet classes all with Smilodons you should be able to steamroll the game blindfolded, Unfair or not. But regardless I'll admit I was too harsh on Ranger, it's not that bad due to the pet, upon reflection. I just hate having features that only work against certain enemies.

I also played with Dogs/Wolfs and Leopards. Doggies has their bite treated as 2-handed weapon, so they get better Power Attack and 1.5 STR (3 attacks with iteratives on max level) and small kitties grow faster (lvl 4) and outperform Smildons at lvl < 6 with raw stats, they have higher AC and Attack.
All three get auto-trip that rocks up to Challenging and ok-to-good on higher difficulties, when backed up by shared teamwork feats.
Edit: I even played with Bears because I love Bears almost as much as I love Cats.
3 Hit Dice multiplied by 2 hp per level (19 CON reduced to 14) is 6 HP.

Well for starters an Alchemist brings more to the table than just bombs. Secondly, you might want to have bombs as a back-up nuke option, and use something else like a Heavy Crossbow the rest of the time. But you're restricted, both with Precise Bombs and also Ability Focus (Bombs), into specializing in bombs.

I highly doubt that any other pet outperforms the Smilodon in offense, at least not until you get Greater Polymorph
 

Mark Richard

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
1,213
After finishing my game yesterday I idly browsed through guides and found one that I initially mistook as a joke. Nyrissa... is romanceable?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1587659146

This takes the entirety of a 200 hour campaign and is an insanely convoluted process involving the investment of significant resources, missable skill checks, missable dialogue options, a monogamous PC, and tackling main quests in a specific order. Suddenly trading gifts for relationship points in Dragon Age doesn't seem so bad.

And why on earth anyone would try to romance the greatest mass-murderer in the history of Golarion is beyond me. She tried to kill you several times and brought untold suffering on your subjects, but you've just got to find out what's under those leaf panties?!
 

Daidre

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
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Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Well for starters an Alchemist brings more to the table than just bombs. Secondly, you might want to have bombs as a back-up nuke option, and use something else like a Heavy Crossbow the rest of the time. But you're restricted, both with Precise Bombs and also Ability Focus (Bombs), into specializing in bombs.

Whole point of Alchemist is that he uses the same feats for Bombs and mundane range weapon like Crossbows - Point-Blank, Precise and Rapid Shot are must-have feats for both. There are only 2 directions of building Alchemist (not Vivi) I can see:

1) Focusing DEX with standard mutagen to be better with Crossbow as back up weapon. Ability Focus (Bombs) still necessary to compensate for lower DC on bomb's CC effects, but with lower priority. Hit chance with bombs is better at the expense weaker secondary effects.
2) Focusing INT with cognatogen. Ability Focus (Bombs) is mandatory. More CC at the expense of hit chance.

Jubilost is low-enough level to do any of them.

- ignoring strongest class feature for the Crossbow plink-plink. Useless buff-bot build.
 

Sjukob

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2015
Messages
2,093
Nyrissa... is romanceable? And why on earth anyone would try to romance the greatest mass-murderer in the history of Golarion is beyond me. She tried to kill you several times and brought untold suffering on your subjects, but you've just got to find out what's under those leaf panties?!
Yeah, Nyrissa romance is just some cuckold fantasy material. The secret ending should've been purely about killing Lantern King, separated from Nyrissa romance for those who want to do it.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
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Russia
5 extra hp doesn't make or break an unfair run. Ironman, maybe.

Well, I have one pretty stupid example: I once started Unfair run with original builds on companions, but respecced Valerie with mod around level 3. Of course, I went for optimal, so all excessive CON went to STR and Toughness was replaced with something useful. In the end, instead of being a tank with some staying power who could take couple of hits, she started to fall flat on her face after first hit at her flat-footed AC.
u get critted on unfair for like 80 damage on level 1. so stupid example indeed. valerie is not an unfair tank, and not really that good of a tank at all, until level 10+ or so, provided you don't multi.

After finishing my game yesterday I idly browsed through guides and found one that I initially mistook as a joke. Nyrissa... is romanceable?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1587659146

This takes the entirety of a 200 hour campaign and is an insanely convoluted process involving the investment of significant resources, missable skill checks, missable dialogue options, a monogamous PC, and tackling main quests in a specific order. Suddenly trading gifts for relationship points in Dragon Age doesn't seem so bad.

And why on earth anyone would try to romance the greatest mass-murderer in the history of Golarion is beyond me. She tried to kill you several times and brought untold suffering on your subjects, but you've just got to find out what's under those leaf panties?!
secret JRPG ending requering super secret checks it's all ok.

the only thing which makes no sense is that Nyrissa is not some tsundere loli

tumblr_pmw3qsrDyi1r1bz0wo1_500.gif
 

Grampy_Bone

Arcane
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Messages
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Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
Barbarian Rage runs out insanely fast if you use it every fight so you defeated your own argument there.

It's the problem of adapting a game where every character is controlled by an individual with plenty of time to decide actions to a game where six characters are controlled by one person and you have to pay attention to all of them at the same time.

RTwP is what it is. Adapting turn based to real time always involves tradeoffs. I'm of the opinion game devs shouldn't translate turn based mechanics 1:1 into a real time system without thoroughly thinking through how each works and what they are meant to do. In cases like Barb rage, giving the player a break on granular micromanagement of rage rounds may have been a good idea. But now we have turn based mod so I guess it doesn't matter.


She was missing ~15 (45 > 30 after respec), since I went for "Fighter needs 19 STR to be functional!" meme with 14 CON.

I respecced Val into a 18/14/16 Fighter, still took tower shield specialist and stalwart defender, but also managed to hit things and deal actual damage.

HP tanking doesn't work in Pathfinder, and Val's AC build isn't really stat dependent. There's no reason why a fighter should sacrifice offense for defense in this game when you can have both.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Also if you run out of bombs all the time presumably you are also running out of Rages and Songs and mage spells equally fast because those guys must also be using it all every single turn
Barbarian Rage runs out insanely fast if you use it every fight so you defeated your own argument there.

That was the point, genius - plenty of classes will run out of shit superfast if you have them use the shit every single turn. (Another reason why turn based feels better.)

I'm not interested in X companion/class is BEST/WORST debate, just that to hear grampy complain noknok is bad and jubilost is bad was mindblowing
 

Grampy_Bone

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Didn't say Nok Nok and Jubilost were bad, I said Nok Nok is a glass cannon (which he is, like most rogues) and Jubilost is inferior to a dedicated offensive caster, which the game completely lacks.

Jubil's bombs do fine but they're not effective enough to win a battle with one cast like a lot of sorc/wizard spells are. You can spam a bunch of bombs at once and be pretty happy, but then you run out quick, compared to the Sorc who would still have his billion spell slots to use. Though to be fair Jubil's base alchemist attack is better than 1d3 acid splash/jolt without sneak attacks.

My point was that the pathfinder companions are an odd collection of misfits and not standard fighter/mage/clerics with generic and inoffensive builds designed to accommodate a wide variety of playstyles. You pretty much have to play them in a specific way (which is sucky early on), and if that way doesn't work with your own playstyle or MC build, tough. Some people don't see that as a bad thing though, which is fine for them.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Messages
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Nok is actually somewhat of a seal clubber. On Unfair he misses bab and ac to run around front lines as easily, if you just level him as Rogue. That's why most ppl just use 3-4 levels of them.

Jubilost is good regardless of difficulty though. Could probably autolevel him for 20 levels and still use on any difficulty.

Fucking noobchemists.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
Jubil's bombs do fine but they're not effective enough to win a battle with one cast like a lot of sorc/wizard spells are.
No, but they are effective enough even if you are new to the game and don't know the game mechanics. Sure, mages can do the same with one spell, but you have to figure out which spell that is first (and lets not forget how long it took the devs to patch the arcane merchant in, before that it was easy to end up with a lacking spell selection on your first run).
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
only alchemist can spend more than 1 "class resource" each turn and runs out fastest
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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May 28, 2018
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Also if you run out of bombs all the time presumably you are also running out of Rages and Songs and mage spells equally fast because those guys must also be using it all every single turn
Barbarian Rage runs out insanely fast if you use it every fight so you defeated your own argument there.

That was the point, genius - plenty of classes will run out of shit superfast if you have them use the shit every single turn. (Another reason why turn based feels better.)

I'm not interested in X companion/class is BEST/WORST debate, just that to hear grampy complain noknok is bad and jubilost is bad was mindblowing
You misunderstood my point, I'm saying that, like bombs, rage also runs out extremely fast and thus isn't safe to use every fight. Point being, both rage and bombs are shit in this game, in the sense that the game throws shit tons of trash mobs at you and so you really need resources that last a long time

Barbarian really needs a feat similar to Lingering Performance, but for rage
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Yeah, Yosharian I agree - and that was also my point the whole time.

20 bombs or whatever the alchemist ends up with I think is a perfectly fine number in relation to resource scarcity for other classes. You could argue that you should be able to throw bombs all the time if you're built for that, but that would basically be a larger argument to also make rage, song, etc. per-enc as well.

Also I mean I'm now at the endtime house and force bombs are simply the easiest way to wipe out anything. Isn't Octavia a classic Edwin style mage? Never used her, but if she's not, I can understand Grampy's argument somewhat. Valerie is the Eder-style character who does the job fine, if not optimally.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Wandering the world randomly in search of maps
Isn't Octavia a classic Edwin style mage?

She's a transmuter/rogue and works out well as an arcane trickster--many spells seem to be in the game purely for this class combo, so she's really one of the better if not best companions. I just wish they didn't force a multiclass on her or have 8 constitution. Transmutation is also a weak specialization compared to evoc or conjuration. She doesn't hold a candle to Edwin with his 2 free fuck you spell slots per level on top of his specialist bonus, plus his respectable 16 constitution. Although neither character should ever really get hit in combat.

She also has a stupid annoying personality but so do all of the companions really and that's obviously personal taste.
 

Yosharian

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Alright this has absolutely nothing to do with Kingmaker but fuck it, I homebrewed the shit out of Barbarian in an attempt to make it a class I would enjoy playing. Feedback is much appreciated, unless it's negative in which case you can fuck off

Barbarians
-=-=-=-=-
* Instead of gaining bonuses to Strength and Constitution while raging, the barbarian now gains an untyped +2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saving throws. (Untyped means these bonuses stack with any other bonuses the barbarian might have) The barbarian is also fatigued for 1 minute when he ends his rage, as opposed to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. At 5th level, the bonuses granted by rage increase to +3. At 11th level, they increase to +4. At 20th level, they increase to +6.
-=-=-=-=-
* The extra hitpoints gained during a barbarian's rage are now treated as temporary hitpoints. These hit points are in addition to the character’s current hit point total and any damage taken by the character is subtracted from these hit points first. Any damage in excess of a character’s temporary hit points is applied to his current hit points as normal. If the effect that grants the temporary hit points ends or is dispelled, any remaining temporary hit points go away. The damage they sustained is not transferred to the character’s current hit points.
-=-=-=-=-
* Barbarians no longer incur a penalty to AC while raging. Instead, the barbarian gains an armor bonus equal to his current Constitution modifier. This includes the bonus granted by rage. This bonus only applies when the barbarian is wearing no armor. The barbarian's body counts as a suit of armor for the purposes of spells such as Magic Vestment; however, the effect only applies when the barbarian is wearing no armor and is raging.
-=-=-=-=-
* Fast Movement (Ex): while wearing heavy armor, this ability still does not apply, but it does prevent the barbarian's speed from being reduced by armor or encumbrance, similar to the dwarf ability Slow and Steady. If the barbarian is a dwarf, then Fast Movement's speed increase does apply while wearing heavy armor. The barbarian must have heavy armor proficiency to benefit from this effect.
-=-=-=-=-
* Some of the barbarian's rage powers have been altered as per the documentation on the Unchained Barbarian D20PFSRD page. See this page for further details.
-=-=-=-=-
* Enduring Rage (Ex): this rage power allows the effects of the barbarian's rage to continue for two rounds after the barbarian stops raging, if he so wishes. During these extra two rounds, the barbarian's rage functions as normal, but his reserve of rage rounds does not deplete further. After the extra two rounds, the barbarian's rage must end.
-=-=-=-=-
* Savage Core (Ex): starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 increase to their existing natural armor bonus. Every three barbarian levels thereafter, the barbarian gains an additional +1 increase, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level.
-=-=-=-=-
* Tireless Rage (Ex): this ability is now gained at 9th level, instead of 17th level.
-=-=-=-=-
* Primal Endurance (Ex): starting at 17th level, a barbarian is completely immune to fatigue.
-=-=-=-=-
* Eternal Rage (Ex): starting at 19th level, a barbarian can rage at will.

I tried to fix what I think are the Barbarian's worst aspects while also stealing some things from the Unchained Barbarian but improving them.
 

Yosharian

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Isn't Octavia a classic Edwin style mage?

She's a transmuter/rogue and works out well as an arcane trickster--many spells seem to be in the game purely for this class combo, so she's really one of the better if not best companions. I just wish they didn't force a multiclass on her or have 8 constitution. Transmutation is also a weak specialization compared to evoc or conjuration. She doesn't hold a candle to Edwin with his 2 free fuck you spell slots per level on top of his specialist bonus, plus his respectable 16 constitution. Although neither character should ever really get hit in combat.

She also has a stupid annoying personality but so do all of the companions really and that's obviously personal taste.
Edwin is also one of the best characters in BG2 in terms of personality and so on. So he wins on all fronts.
 

Grampy_Bone

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I tried to fix what I think are the Barbarian's worst aspects while also stealing some things from the Unchained Barbarian but improving them.

In 3.x I always wondered by barbarians got the Uncanny Dodge class feature while Monks didn't. I can't imagine a scenario where big dumb Arnold Schwarzenegger nimbly dodges an attack from behind while Jackie Chan eats it.
 

Lawntoilet

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
1,840
Is it still possible to get the good ending to both Amiri's and Tristian's quests? I know I did it on my first playthrough but Owlcat said that was a bug and I heard they patched it so they are mutually exclusive now. This seems artificial to me, there is no real narrative reason I can see why going after Tristian should be time-sensitive and going after the barbarians obviously is.
 

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