Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Grampy_Bone]

before I got perma banned

How did you get banned?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

before I got perma banned

How did you get banned?

Acted the codexer on a forum that demands politeness

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Acted the codexer on a forum that demands politeness

He seems harmless here, I haven't seen much that would get him banned anywhere else.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Acted the codexer on a forum that demands politeness
Other way around. 4channer acted in a forum that demands politeness.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

He seems harmless here

Harmless as a monk, really.

 

[Pink Eye]

Acted the codexer on a forum that demands politeness

He seems harmless here, I haven't seen much that would get him banned anywhere else.

I mean, I cooled down after getting perma banned, so meh. I keep most of my energy on 4chan.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Remember when Obsidian introduced Pillars I and their combat system? Josh Sawyer was talking about it, and it went something along the lines of "in CRPG's we have the computing power that is inaccessible for a human DM, so we can create more complex system".

This actually proves my point.

Pillars of Eternity is based on 4th Edition D&D. The AC/passive defense system is clearly lifted from 4E, as is engagement and the whole class concept. This influence is readily apparent to PnP players and widely acknowledged. But Sawyer didn't want to be limited by a PnP ruleset so he didn't try to adapt one, instead he picked and chose from many sources (The hit/graze/miss system is from Darklands). This is totally fine and in doing so he avoided any complaints that Pillars of Eternity was not accurate to tabletop. If he had chosen to adapt 4E he would have been more limited in his design options and invited the potential wrath from a picky fanbase. But then Pillars may have attracted more attention from die hard 4E fans and made more sales.

I am not saying one approach is better than the other, they both have tradeoffs. But it does seem to me the Pathfinder franchise is healthier than Pillars of Eternity. Pillars was also more, idk, bland? It's overbalanced and very simple. Character abilities are limited and everything feels the same. Hardly more complex than an average tabletop session.

I'll leave off with a paraphrased quote from Julian Jensen, Danish programmer and creator of The Elder Scrolls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGLGi5RK8V8

"The best CRPG is about as good as the worst tabletop RPG."

 

[LannTheStupid]

Bring tabletop experience to videogame means bring tabletop experience to videogame, not alienate PnP players by destroying what they enjoy about the game. At least, IMO.

I separate intent, implementation, and interpretation.

Owlcat implemented their intended goals in such a way that Western PnP crowd interprets it as lacking, not faithful enough etc. The result is: a very good computer game. IMO.

My statement is: if any tabletop ruleset is implemented in such a way that Western PnP crowd interprets it as resounding success, the result will be a horrible computer game.

"The best CRPG is about as good as the worst tabletop RPG."

Thank you very much, this is a very deep and thoughtful quote. My interpretation of this quote is that CPRG's and tabletop RPG's are so different that their ranges of acceptability touch only slightly. Which we can see in our discussion.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Bring tabletop experience to videogame means bring tabletop experience to videogame, not alienate PnP players by destroying what they enjoy about the game. At least, IMO.

I separate intent, implementation, and interpretation.

Owlcat implemented their intended goals in such a way that Western PnP crowd interprets it as lacking, not faithful enough etc. The result is: a very good computer game. IMO.

My statement is: if any tabletop ruleset is implemented in such a way that Western PnP crowd interprets it as resounding success, the result will be a horrible computer game.

"The best CRPG is about as good as the worst tabletop RPG."

Thank you very much, this is a very deep and thoughtful quote. My interpretation of this quote is that CPRG's and tabletop RPG's are so different that their ranges of acceptability touch only slightly. Which we can see in our discussion.

I think that BG1 and BG2 were, for the time, viewed as successful implementations of a PnP rule set, although standards may have changed since then (and those games aren't really any more faithful than Kingmaker was)

 

[Raghar]

Pink Eye
Also, speaking about Western PnP players (because I don't know if Eastern European PnP is present here).

Remember when Obsidian introduced Pillars I and their combat system? Josh Sawyer was talking about it, and it went something along the lines of "in CRPG's we have the computing power that is inaccessible for a human DM, so we can create more complex system". And they introduced 3-digit stats, percentages, non-integer ranges and so on.

Think about it. Experienced and intelligent dungeon master Josh Sawyer is certain that he needs a computer program to extend numbers in his game besides 1-2 dozen. It's fair to say by this reasoning that Western PnP players can perform mental arithmetic only in range from 0 to 20-30.

Now imagine Russian programmers who studied the multiplication table in their 2nd-3d grade and know it by heart till late Alzheimer's. Who can more or less freely reason in numbers from -1000 to +1000, with decimals if need be. They see combat logs, and it's clear as day for them how to overcome those 35 AC of Owlbears. And they need to dumb down not the game system, but their own mentality to match Westerners.

I have to admit, though, that as writers Western PnP players are quite nice. I picked up some new English words from them.

l^20 - l^15 = ...
Thus we can set a curve that from l^5 upward would give sensible results. Thus we can describe large differences with only rather small numbers.

It's really simple. You can use simple addition and subtraction for really complicate stuff. (I also learned some stuff about percentages and software after school violated law against disabled 20 years ago.) I can even write an equation to show you the problem.

However if Owlcat would do actual game master stuff. They would know, they are basically modeling what's called elites... and their problem is they are doing it everywhere. Normal goblin don't have training for defensive combat, thus they are unlikely to accumulate high AC from something else than low size and high DEX. Owlbear is an animal, it has it's own restrictions and main AC source is armored skin.

 

[Ontopoly]

The nice part about importing table top rules over the Poe method is with table top all the numbers make sense. You can calculate it in your mind so a +1 attack bonus in Pathfinder makes sense and you know about how much of an impact it will have while in Poe you don't know how all of it is calculated. A + 1 doesn't actually mean anything to me other than its better than before.

 

[Yosharian]

Educate me, oh knowledgeable one. What is this pattern? I don't understand.

Happy to oblige.

He's probably making the connection that PnP player = your criticism is invalid.

Pretty much that.

Judging by the complaints from PnP players their experience is so different from computer games that their reasoning ranges from bizarre to incomprehensible. It seems they have some logic; but for a pure CRPG player this logic is alien.

they shouldn't have adapted a PnP ruleset.

Owlcat did not adapt the ruleset and nor should they. They exploited the ruleset - and that is how it should be done to create a good computer game. Any ruleset needs to be chopped up, ground, wrapped in small pieces of dough and presented to computer players as nice pelmeni instead of the slab of meat it had been before.

Um.. but I agree with that? I'm pretty much happy with how Owlcat implemented Pathfinder, aside from a few bugs they haven't fixed.

For example they removed Endurance as a requirement for Stalwart Defender - completely agree with that change. Hell, I even think the flanking change isn't so bad (although it makes Sneak Attack a little too powerful, but I digress).

 

[Delterius]

how will enemies hit 100 ac characters without any numerical advantage tho

they said they are removing numerical advantage from difficulty settings but rather they will activate abilities

and add more enemies = more trash.

Should enemies hit 100 ac tho

 

[Yosharian]

Exactly, if enemies were smart enough to ignore your 100AC tank and go after your squishies, maybe people wouldn't make 100AC tanks...

Overpowering enemies so that they can stand a chance of hitting 100AC is missing the point entirely

 

[LannTheStupid]

I even think the flanking change isn't so bad

I would very much like to play a game where the A.I. has such spatial awareness that it can flank properly and as well as a human player. And find the shortest paths as easy as humans do. I would even buy a Threadripper for that if need be.

Alas...

 

[Tigranes]

So I finished this game

Solid 8/10, overambitious but very fun, plenty of jank and other flaws but gets the core gameplay right

The plot/writing has some nice cool moments, though overall it falls into the old trap of "Oh in the end none of the politics or anything matters it's all just ancient curse thing you have to fix in an ancient dungeon fighting an ancient being". Trashos seems to be super impressed, and I can see how it's really clever how all the different strands of the story come together - companion stories, the ancient backdrop, the gameplay consequences, etc. There is something very satisfying about how everything you experience throughout this superlong game fits together nicely around the Apology. At the same time, I don't think the game has any interesting thematic core. It's not a story about kingdoms and politics and human endeavour, it's not a story about repentance and regret, whatever. It's just a macguffin story with a generic boring villain (nymph) and behind her an even more generic boring villain (fireball god boy). I almost wish Nok nok and Linzi were the protagonists.

I don't think I'll ever bother replaying it twice, primarily because once you get your builds setup by level ~12 there's nothing new gameplay wise and you're just wading through huge amounts of plot/kingdom padding. But I do feel like playing the early game again on Hard. What are some interesting/different builds to try? I felt like all my characters were ending up physical damage bombers, where the modus operandi is buffed physical dudes with sneak attack smashing people for hundreds of damage per turn (or bombs). Are druids fun? Dragon disciples?

 

[Yosharian]

I even think the flanking change isn't so bad

I would very much like to play a game where the A.I. has such spatial awareness that it can flank properly and as well as a human player. And find the shortest paths as easy as humans do. I would even buy a Threadripper for that if need be.

Alas...

Yes, lack of intelligent AI is a massive problem

 

[frajaq]

Whats the best pet companion to get? Is it still the Smilodon or did it get nerfed in some patch?

 

[Yosharian]

Whats the best pet companion to get? Is it still the Smilodon or did it get nerfed in some patch?

AFAIK Smilodon is still the most powerful pet, and hasn't been nerfed. The other pets don't come close to its offensive power. Some of them get cute tricks like Trip, which personally I don't think makes up for their lack of attacks compared to the Smilidon, but some think differently.

However, Greater Polymorph at later levels does a lot to equalize the gap between the Smilodon and other pets. Providing you have someone who can cast it, that is.

 

[Xamenos]

Whats the best pet companion to get? Is it still the Smilodon or did it get nerfed in some patch?

I've heard good things about the Stag's charge, but yeah, Smilodon's still the best. And Owlcat would probably get crucified if they started making balance passes on class features.

 

[Shadenuat]

Exactly, if enemies were smart enough to ignore your 100AC tank

what if that tank can kill all of them.

I m not sure you people understand they ceiling character building can reach in Pathfinder.

but we shall see.

 

[frajaq]

thats fine, just want to know whats best for early on since thats when this game is actually rough

 

[frajaq]

Yosharian I saw that in your build guide you turn Harrim into a Cleric of Groetus 3/Empyreal Sorcerer 7/Mystic Theurge 10 thing to try to "salvage" him since he has bad stats. I like him as a character so I'm gonna use him. I saw that Nerd Commando just simply turns him into a Druid in his attempt to "salvage". Is the power difference between your choices that big or can I go with whatever?

 

[Xamenos]

Yosharian I saw that in your build guide you turn Harrim into a Cleric of Groetus 3/Empyreal Sorcerer 7/Mystic Theurge 10 thing to try to "salvage" him since he has bad stats. I like him as a character so I'm gonna use him. I saw that Nerd Commando just simply turns him into a Druid in his attempt to "salvage". Is the power difference between your choices that big or can I go with whatever?

I'm not the guy you're asking, but I'd say it depends on the difficulty you're playing and whether you know what you're doing tactics-wise. I finished the game on Challenging/Hard with no multiclassing on the default companions except for the absolute necessary (Octavia).

I also don't understand why you would gimp the spellcasting progression of a perfectly fine class like the cleric, but it's possible I'm missing some nuance for Unfair.

 

[Yosharian]

Exactly, if enemies were smart enough to ignore your 100AC tank

what if that tank can kill all of them.

I m not sure you people understand they ceiling character building can reach in Pathfinder.

but we shall see.

I mean most builds that reach 100AC do so by sacrificing in other areas