Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Xamenos]

So trying out early levels with Monster Tactician PC, Grenadier Merc, Valerie, Harrim, Amiri, on Hard.

I have now summoned a monster at least 40 times and I believe they have hit the enemy twice in total

Good times

Hard gives a flat bonus to enemies which is proportionally higher for early levels. And summon stats kinda suck that early. They're mostly useful as disposable meatshields and flanking buddies before you get to the good stuff and have some feats to make them better.

 

[frajaq]

For the endless dungeon DLC whats the best way to make a super perception character? something close to how Jaethal was in the campaign, Elven Inquisitor of some kind?

 

[Monkeyfinger]

For the endless dungeon DLC whats the best way to make a super perception character? something close to how Jaethal was in the campaign, Elven Inquisitor of some kind?

Dwarf is slightly better than elf. Both get keen sense and dwarf gets +2wis.

 

[Sjukob]

So trying out early levels with Monster Tactician PC, Grenadier Merc, Valerie, Harrim, Amiri, on Hard.

I have now summoned a monster at least 40 times and I believe they have hit the enemy twice in total

Good times

Hard gives a flat bonus to enemies which is proportionally higher for early levels. And summon stats kinda suck that early. They're mostly useful as disposable meatshields and flanking buddies before you get to the good stuff and have some feats to make them better.

Seconding this, although I find that even higher level summons are still just meatshields mostly, even with feats. If you fancy playing an inquisitor and want monsters as your allies pick sacred huntsmaster, he does decent damage on his own and gets the best version of the pet - the one that gets teamwork feats, thanks to hunter tactics. Make him a 2h backline melee with reach weapon, forget about non-buff spells, let him sit behind his pet or tank and smack enemies with his fauchard/glaive or whatever.

As for the difficulty, you can play how you want, but I find that the first chapter even on hard difficulty is pretty iffy. When I saw that my melees weren't able to reliably hit a dude with a shield, while having: weapon focus, bless, bardic performance, divine favor, flanking bonus and the said dude was shakened and prone thanks to grease, and that dude getting up and critting my tank in the face with a first hit, I just thought that I'm not having any of that. You can try and raise the difficulty once you beat staglord, by that time you should have bigger numbers and more options available.

PS: I wouldn't dump on the kinetist. They do great damage with exotic damage types. I've mixed the NPC with water/air, and they have heal, grease, haste and then stack damage with great endurance. I consider them icing on a cake, rather than an essential component, but the Kineticist NPC has been working out very well for me.

I don't think bad of kineticist at all, it was just a joke about comparing any other class to probably the most broken and overpowered one in the game - kineticist.

 

[Yosharian]

So with the Domain abilities being limited, all we're left with is the Cleric spellcasting, since Harrim's ability to Channel Energy is pretty wack. Well, I'd much rather have an MT with slightly weaker Cleric spell progression and pretty good Sorcerer progression, with spell slots lasting for days.

Finally, I wanted something a little different to just standard Cleric, to make Harrim stand out from my existing Cleric of Erastil build. It was more this desire for a unique build, than a need to have something which copes well with Unfair difficulty.

I hope this explains why I went for MT, but honestly if you want to stick with standard Cleric, it's all good.

I wouldn't call losing 8th and 9th level spells "slightly weaker". Unless you have another full Cleric to cast your Holy Auras and Mass Heals, that is.

At least I can understand wanting to try a different build. But by not adding the the final sentence of your post as a disclaimer I think you're doing a disservice to the poor people who follow your build thinking it's the most powerful when it's not.

Alright, I'll add some information about that.

In my defense that part of my not-a-guide is in now way near completion.

 

[Yosharian]

Cool, but is there a way to bypass early game "sucks ass" phase of spell casters ?

My wizards, on Hard and Unfair, do the most crucial work at any encounter with Grease, Magic Missile, Stone Call and Glitterdust. And getting Stinking Cloud allows them to neuter almost anything without poison immunity. Cleric has single target СС spells, channeling (damaging version is brutal) and heals. Goes completely nuts on level 5 with Animate Dead. Druid gets pet and could kite anything to death over his AoE spells.

There is no "suck" to bypass.

AT only loses 1 level of spell progression and gets new spells with the same speed as Sorc. If delay to level 3 spells seems too bad, his only Rogue/Vivi level could me moved to level 7 (to sacrifice his mid-game power for early-game power).

Yeah Grease fucking wrecks some very hard encounters early on.

 

[Yosharian]

Are druids fun?

Summon Nature's Ally + Animal Growth + Linzi song + haste = Swarm of Giant Bears on Crack. Wild shape is gravy.

Is 4 Dragon Disciple worth it in actually smashing people with breath/bite attacks?

I consider DD to be highly overrated. Someone else mentioned that the stat buffs don't match the unlock requirements (you need a Cha spellcaster but you get bonus Int). It's also a 3/4 BAB class so it delays your attack progression even more. + 4 Str and +2 Natural armor is easier to get with Vivisectionist and has better all around abilities for lower investment ALTHOUGH it's not a passive so it runs out (10 min/level). Vivi also gets bite/claws and so do Barbs with rage powers, again without the DD drawbacks.

This is what I came up with for my DD homebrew

Dragon Disciple
-=-=-=-=-
* Spells per Day: a dragon disciple gains new spells per day at every level.
-=-=-=-=-
* Ability Boost (Ex): at 8th level, the dragon disciple may choose a mental ability score to improve (Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma). At 10th level, he gains an additional +4 increase to his Strength score.
-=-=-=-=-
* Dragon Form (Sp): at 6th level, a dragon disciple can assume the form of a dragon. This ability works like form of the dragon I. At 8th level, this ability functions as form of the dragon II and the dragon disciple can use this ability twice per day. At 10th level, this ability functions as form of the dragon III and the dragon disciple can use this ability three times per day. His caster level for this effect is equal to his effective sorcerer levels for his draconic bloodline. Whenever he casts form of the dragon, he must assume the form of a dragon of the same type as his bloodline.

Still not overpowered

 

[Yosharian]

Summons don't really do damage consistently, specially not on the higher difficulty levels. They're just meat shields

 

[Sykar]

All the more reason to avoid anything above Challenging like the plague.

 

[Haplo]

Bard - has CC that targets all three saves and can buff your party.

At the end of the day its mostly Enchantment, which half the mobs in the game will be either outright immune to or highly resistant.
Plus some cool Fortitude 1-round Stuns/interrupts, that are a bit unwieldy due to the cone aoe. Reflex? Not sure what Reflex spells they got? Grease I suppose?

A Bard's CC has NOTHING on a mage's Conjuration goodness. Also a Bard can't nuke.

Alchemist - targets all three saves with his bombs and can buff the party.

Kinda cool, but the aoes are typically pretty small. Limited in uses. Sure, as are a mage's spells, but I feel that typically 1 arcane spell makes a much bigger difference then 1 bomb. Sure can spam-destroy bosses, but so can a mage with rays - or outright disable them with hard CC like Chains of Light.
They are good, but not my taste (like Vivis though).

Cleric/druid - targets all three saves with his spells, buffs and heals the party, brings pet and has access to unique domain stuff.

Good at what they do, but miss mass hard CC options. Also cannot really compare the nuking potential.

Magus/vivisectionist - strong damage dealer, brings buffs for the party.

Sure, they are good, but that's another role - melee DD.

Sacred huntsmaster/ranger - good damage, has buffs (well, ranger at least can buff himself) brings pet.

Again, a different role. Cannot CC effectively, cannot Nova.

Kineticist - lol.

Well yeah, that's an interesting one. Potent, certainly. But far less versatile. IMO brings much less to the table prior to level 13. Afterwards if going for Deadly Earth risks becoming a one-trick-pony with rotten gameplay that gets old real fast. Otherwise... still inferior.

So no, I'm not convinced anyone else can do what an AT does but better. Other roles - tanking, melee DD, sustained DPS, healing, buffing, sure. But IMO noone can beat an AT at nuking or mass hard CC (okay, some sage sorc or something might have +1 or +2 DC more... big deal). Plus all the ranged rogue utility. Well, the Cross-blooded Sorc from EA mod can probably come close in nuking, while being easier to use.

 

[Sjukob]

So no, I'm not convinced anyone else can do what an AT does but better.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's just that you still need to make it to later part of the game and I like other options better before that point, and once you are finally there you can do fine with other classes, even if AT offers great AOE and single target burst. I usually just shelve my sorcerers/wizards until the end of season of the bloom, with the exception of going to Candlemere, because stinking cloud is too good there.

 

[Sykar]

Bard - has CC that targets all three saves and can buff your party.

At the end of the day its mostly Enchantment, which half the mobs in the game will be either outright immune to or highly resistant.
Plus some cool Fortitude 1-round Stuns/interrupts, that are a bit unwieldy due to the cone aoe. Reflex? Not sure what Reflex spells they got? Grease I suppose?

A Bard's CC has NOTHING on a mage's Conjuration goodness. Also a Bard can't nuke.

Alchemist - targets all three saves with his bombs and can buff the party.

Kinda cool, but the aoes are typically pretty small. Limited in uses. Sure, as are a mage's spells, but I feel that typically 1 arcane spell makes a much bigger difference then 1 bomb. Sure can spam-destroy bosses, but so can a mage with rays - or outright disable them with hard CC like Chains of Light.
They are good, but not my taste (like Vivis though).

Cleric/druid - targets all three saves with his spells, buffs and heals the party, brings pet and has access to unique domain stuff.

Good at what they do, but miss mass hard CC options. Also cannot really compare the nuking potential.

Magus/vivisectionist - strong damage dealer, brings buffs for the party.

Sure, they are good, but that's another role - melee DD.

Sacred huntsmaster/ranger - good damage, has buffs (well, ranger at least can buff himself) brings pet.

Again, a different role. Cannot CC effectively, cannot Nova.

Kineticist - lol.

Well yeah, that's an interesting one. Potent, certainly. But far less versatile. IMO brings much less to the table prior to level 13. Afterwards if going for Deadly Earth risks becoming a one-trick-pony with rotten gameplay that gets old real fast. Otherwise... still inferior.

So no, I'm not convinced anyone else can do what an AT does but better. Other roles - tanking, melee DD, sustained DPS, healing, buffing, sure. But IMO noone can beat an AT at nuking or mass hard CC (okay, some sage sorc or something might have +1 or +2 DC more... big deal). Plus all the ranged rogue utility. Well, the Cross-blooded Sorc from EA mod can probably come close in nuking, while being easier to use.

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.
AT basically sits at 12d6 with Sense Vitals which means on average he/she adds 3.5*12=42 damage which is conditional and not always available especially early. Not as much of a problem later though. So by and large crossblooded sorcerer deals more damage than AT by a fair bit especially once the damage dice maximum goes beyond 10.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I think mages provide priceless CC from level 1 onwards. YMMV.

 

[Sykar]

Wizards and sorcerers share the same spells. If CC is so important you can start with Grease and either MM or Burning Hands depending on what you get from your bloodlines. The orc/dragon crossblooded sorcerer's main weakness is -2 will save and 1 less spell known per level which hurts but is imho a fair trade off for all that insane damage.

 

[Haplo]

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.
AT basically sits at 12d6 with Sense Vitals which means on average he/she adds 3.5*12=42 damage which is conditional and not always available especially early. Not as much of a problem later though. So by and large crossblooded sorcerer deals more damage than AT by a fair bit especially once the damage dice maximum goes beyond 10.

You're forgetting that an AT with proper equipment also gets +2 out of those +3/4 damage per die rolled. AND this extra damage is also calculated for the AT sneak damage dice. AND certain spells roll damage and sneak attack dice 2 or more times (well, probably a bug, but makes the likes of Volcanic Eruption/Ice Storm like 8x more powerful then normal when cast by an AT).

 

[Haplo]

Wizards and sorcerers share the same spells. If CC is so important you can start with Grease and either MM or Burning Hands depending on what you get from your bloodlines. The crossblooded sorcerer's main weakness is -2 will save and 1 less spell known per level which hurts but is imho a fair trade off for all that insane damage.

That was in response to Sjukob claiming that an AT is a late bloomer.

 

[Daidre]

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.

I do not think that bugged feature (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodline-mutations/blood-havoc/) on modded in Class Archetype is a good framework for any power-building discussion.

 

[Sykar]

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.
AT basically sits at 12d6 with Sense Vitals which means on average he/she adds 3.5*12=42 damage which is conditional and not always available especially early. Not as much of a problem later though. So by and large crossblooded sorcerer deals more damage than AT by a fair bit especially once the damage dice maximum goes beyond 10.

You're forgetting that an AT with proper equipment also gets +2 out of those +3/4 damage per die rolled. AND this extra damage is also calculated for the AT sneak damage dice. AND certain spells roll damage and sneak attack dice 2 or more times (well, probably a bug, but makes the likes of Volcanic Eruption/Ice Storm like 8x more powerful then normal when cast by an AT).

Applying SA more than once is a bug. I have looked it up and one of the paizo developers essentially said that it was only ever intended to apply bonus sneak once. I could also bring up that the sorcerer has access to Sense Vitals and can cast more flexibly than a AT wizard etc.

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.

I do not think that bugged feature (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodline-mutations/blood-havoc/) on modded in Class Archetype is a good framework for any power-building discussion.

Considering that AT is faultily implemented due to idiotic flanking rules and flaky application of SA damage I dare say this is all equal. Also to my knowledge the implementation is not faulty. You essentially give up class features for that extra damage which can be quite good depending on chosen bloodline.

 

[Daidre]

You essentially give up class features for that extra damage which can be quite good depending on chosen bloodline.

Blood Havok Per PnP:
1) replaces first level bloodline power, not stacks with it
2) Works only on bloodline spells
3) no way it could be taken twice

I like mods, and even often edit 2da tables in IE games. But why run around claiming that cheated char is stronger that some build in the original?

 

[Sykar]

You essentially give up class features for that extra damage which can be quite good depending on chosen bloodline.

Blood Havok Per PnP:
1) replaces first level bloodline power, not stacks with
2) Works only on bloodline spells
3) no way it could be taken twice

I like mods, and even often edit 2da tables in IE games. But why run around claiming that cheated char is stronger that some build in the original?

I do not play the table top so excuse me for not knowing all the ins and outs and base my opinion how stuff is implemented including the base game. That does not change the fact that AT himself got a significant power boost himself by making it laughably easy to flank opponents basically guaranteeing 100% uptime and at later stages far too few counters to invisibility types of spells so again, this works both ways.
Not to mention that SA only ever was supposed to be applied once and only once per spell cast. The only exception to that would have been a spell that has base cast time of one full round AND attacks multiple times per round just like rogues need to commit a full round action to get off all their attacks in one round.
Also blood havoc replacing level 1 power makes no sense. It is then completely and utterly useless for draconic and orc bloodlines and the other two blood mutations are not available at level one. So in my book, more of a fix. Considering that you give up a lot for that extra blood line a fair trade off. Much narrower focus compared to regular sorcerer and -2 will is not a great but still noticable drawback.
Oh and by the way, I never considered the rules made up by developers to be some kind of gold standard you slavishly have to adhere to. Bascially all P&P I ever played with had a plethora of house rules.
Also cheating? Cheating would be setting your base attribute scores to 50 or something alike.

 

[Daidre]

Also blood havoc replacing level 1 power makes no sense. It is then completely and utterly useless for draconic and orc bloodlines and the other two blood mutations are not available at level one. So in my book, more of a fix. Considering that you give up a lot for that extra blood line a fair trade off. Much narrower focus compared to regular sorcerer and -2 will is not a great but still noticable drawback.

Yes, main point of Blood Havok is to give an option for other Bloodlines not to suck as much in comparison next to damage-oriented Dragon/Orc sorcs. Not to make outliners twice more broken.

And original author of Eldritch Arcana even explained, that Crossblooded Sorc is kinda broken in the mod because main penalty - they get new spell levels at one character level later than normal sorc, turned out to be impossible to implement with the mod. So "Use at your own discretion" case.

It not like I judge you - I "homebrewed" too many full bab bards and Kensai/Mage/Thiefs for this myself in NWN and BG.

 

[Sykar]

Also blood havoc replacing level 1 power makes no sense. It is then completely and utterly useless for draconic and orc bloodlines and the other two blood mutations are not available at level one. So in my book, more of a fix. Considering that you give up a lot for that extra blood line a fair trade off. Much narrower focus compared to regular sorcerer and -2 will is not a great but still noticable drawback.

Yes, main point of Blood Havok is to give an option for other Bloodlines not to suck as much in comparison next to damage-oriented Dragon/Orc sorcs. Not to make outliners twice more broken.

And original author of Eldritch Arcana even explained, that Crossblooded Sorc is kinda broken in the mod because main penalty - they get new spell levels at one character level later than normal sorc, turned out to be impossible to implement with the mod. So "Use at your own discretion" case.

It not like I judge you - I "homebrewed" way too many full bab bards and Kensai/Mage/Thiefs for this myself in NWN and BG.

Sorry but unless the level 1 bloodline power sucks really bad there is no reason to ever chose this. +1 to damage per die is meaningless early on and only somewhat noticeable later. Hell thinking about it, the implementation by paizo is really retarded because it makes arcane bloodline even better to be combined with orc bloodline. The level 1 bloodline power of arcane is not very strong and highly situational but another +2 DC on top of a lot of bonus spells negating your biggest weakness means that arcane bloodline wins out again as it does so often.

I could not care less whether you "judge me". I do care that you continue to ignore that AT is just as faultily implemented and is probably the biggest beneficiary of the laughable flanking implementation. If you think EA's implementation of CB is broken, then AT is just as broken. Yet just because it is Owlcat doing the implementation it somehow is "not cheating". Good joke.

 

[Daidre]

If you think EA's implementation of CB is broken, then AT is just as broken.

Sorry, but praising the modded class as top perfomer for adding, with bugged trait, +4 damage on every dice (mostly 1d4/1d6, so yeah +4 on 3.5 avg, more than x2 total) is much closer to bona fide cheating than any faulty implementation that makes it easier for AT to flank.

 

[Trashos]

So I finished this game

Solid 8/10, overambitious but very fun, plenty of jank and other flaws but gets the core gameplay right

The plot/writing has some nice cool moments, though overall it falls into the old trap of "Oh in the end none of the politics or anything matters it's all just ancient curse thing you have to fix in an ancient dungeon fighting an ancient being". Trashos seems to be super impressed, and I can see how it's really clever how all the different strands of the story come together - companion stories, the ancient backdrop, the gameplay consequences, etc. There is something very satisfying about how everything you experience throughout this superlong game fits together nicely around the Apology. At the same time, I don't think the game has any interesting thematic core. It's not a story about kingdoms and politics and human endeavour, it's not a story about repentance and regret, whatever. It's just a macguffin story with a generic boring villain (nymph) and behind her an even more generic boring villain (fireball god boy). I almost wish Nok nok and Linzi were the protagonists.

I don't think I'll ever bother replaying it twice, primarily because once you get your builds setup by level ~12 there's nothing new gameplay wise and you're just wading through huge amounts of plot/kingdom padding. But I do feel like playing the early game again on Hard. What are some interesting/different builds to try? I felt like all my characters were ending up physical damage bombers, where the modus operandi is buffed physical dudes with sneak attack smashing people for hundreds of damage per turn (or bombs). Are druids fun? Dragon disciples?

Here is my take on the main themes. The two major ones are:
1) What it takes to be a king/ruler ("Kingmaker" etc-etc)
2) Atonement (several characters within the games are seeking forgiveness/atonement, Nyrissa, Ivar, Tristian etc-etc)
The 2 main themes can be combined graciously, since a good ruler needs to know when to show mercy. Also note that Nyrissa's story is basically her having to earn the Lantern King's forgiveness for the hubris of wanting a kingdom of her own.

The main device is the similarities/contrast between Nyrissa's and MC's stories. Similarities/contrast (what Kundera would call "ironic relationships between different story elements", but I am translating this from Greek), as a device, is used throughout the game. For example, Lacrymas first pointed out to me the contrast between Valerie and Oleg's wife. Which is what initially got me to suspect that there is serious work going on here.

Another device is the Lantern King himself. He is basically the school for wannabe kings, and he who brings most of everything together in the game, kinda like the bass in a rock song. "Educating" Kings is not his motivation, but still it is his role.

So while I believe that Nyrissa's part could have been done better, I find that her story is very relevant to everything. She failed to be a "King". You have to be a King. What did you learn from her story?

(There are also minor themes that are given different takes. What does one story matter (Linzi, Lantern King, the artisan Shaynih'a), bullying (Nok-Nok, Linzi), hybris (Nyrissa, Vordakai) etc.)

In conclusion, I do not agree with your comment on the mcguffins. And now that you have the overview of my take, maybe you can see why I am impressed with the themes in this game. Like, what other game has ever done something like this?

 

[frajaq]

The Tenebrous Depths content for the campaign is entirelly different from the rogue-like one correct? I'm reading a lot of complaints about people missing out the TRUE ENDING or whatever for not finding lore items but that sure as fuck dont appear in the rogue-like one so far