Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Doktor Best]

Pathfinder Kingmaker Enhanced is in the current Humble Monthly if someone here still doesnt own it.

 

[Sykar]

If you think EA's implementation of CB is broken, then AT is just as broken.

Sorry, but praising the modded class as top perfomer for adding, with bugged trait, +4 damage on every dice (mostly 1d4/1d6, so yeah +4 on 3.5 avg, more than x2 total) is much closer to bona fide cheating than any faulty implementation that makes it easier for AT to flank.

Actually it works and at least +3 damage per die for chosen draconic element is legal:

Just as a reminder for Blood Havoc again:
"Whenever you cast a bloodrager or sorcerer spell that deals damage, add 1 point of damage per die rolled. This benefit applies only to damaging spells that belong to schools you have selected with Spell Focus or that are bloodline spells for your bloodline.

This ability replaces the sorcerer’s 1st-level bloodline power or the bloodrager’s 4th-level bloodline power."

That out of the way:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...nes/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline/
"Bloodline Powers: The power of dragons flows through you and manifests in a number of ways. At 1st level, you must select one of the chromatic or metallic dragon types. This choice cannot be changed. A number of your abilities grant resistances and deal damage based on your dragon type, as noted on Table: Draconic Bloodline Breath Weapons.

Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small). At 5th level, these claws are considered magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR. At 7th level, the damage increases by one step to 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small). At 11th level, these claws deal an additional 1d6 points of damage of your energy type on a successful hit. You can use your claws for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive."

So Blood Havoc replaces your claws. The +1 damage bonus to your spells is not a bloodline power but a bloodline arcana.
"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

Same with Orc:
"Bloodline Powers: You are heir to the bestial power of the great orc warlords of the past. You feel their rage in your blood, and must take care lest the urge to despoil and destroy consumes you.

Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier."

So you lose Touch of Rage NOT the +1 damage per die on damage spells.

The +1 damage per dice is again a bloodline arcana, NOT a bloodline power:
"Bloodline Arcana: You gain the orc subtype, including darkvision 60 feet and light sensitivity. If you already have darkvision, its range increases to 90 feet. Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled."

So next time instead of proclaiming others as cheaters maybe do a more thorough research and learn the difference between bloodline arcana and bloodline power.
So in the end my point stands. Crossblooded sorcerer is a blaster who is greater or at least equal to AT, with the advantage of having a lot more stable damage instead of having random SA dice which can vary a great deal in terms of damage output. Also the extra damage is always present for the spells it applies to, unlike AT which needs special circumstances. Even at just +3, AT only has small advantage for 10 damage dice spells. Once we get into the 15 and 20 damage dice spells crossblooded Orc/Draconic with Blood Havoc*1 pulls ahead significantly and AT needs to be really lucky with rolls to exceed that specific crossblooded sorcerers damage output and at high level 15 and 20 damage dice is the norm not the exception.

+4 can be legal depending on how you interpret the rules. Blood Havoc is not explicitly restricted to be taken once only. It replaces a level 1 bloodline power but you can chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one as a crossblooded sorcerer. So one can make the argument that a crossblooded can swap his first level 1 bloodline power to Blood Havoc at level 1 and then again replaces his second level 1 bloodline power with Blood Havoc a second time at level 3 when he chooses the second level 1 power instead of one of the two available level 3 ones.
While this is a stretch unless a paizo developer specifically stated somewhere that the intent was solely to be able to pick Blood Havoc once it is not strictly forbidden or illegal and should depend on DM and his groups discretion. Since this is a cRPG with loads of broken shit already in it I see no reason why it should be illegal.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/
"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

 

[Fishy]

Pathfinder Kingmaker Enhanced is in the current Humble Monthly if someone here still doesnt own it.

Saw that. I didn't own it, but now I do. I wish they bundled less games and more free time...

 

[LannTheStupid]

If it is not in the official distributive of Pathfinder: Kingmaker then it is illegal. If it is in the game then it is legal however broken it is.

 

[Tigranes]

So I finished this game

Solid 8/10, overambitious but very fun, plenty of jank and other flaws but gets the core gameplay right

The plot/writing has some nice cool moments, though overall it falls into the old trap of "Oh in the end none of the politics or anything matters it's all just ancient curse thing you have to fix in an ancient dungeon fighting an ancient being". Trashos seems to be super impressed, and I can see how it's really clever how all the different strands of the story come together - companion stories, the ancient backdrop, the gameplay consequences, etc. There is something very satisfying about how everything you experience throughout this superlong game fits together nicely around the Apology. At the same time, I don't think the game has any interesting thematic core. It's not a story about kingdoms and politics and human endeavour, it's not a story about repentance and regret, whatever. It's just a macguffin story with a generic boring villain (nymph) and behind her an even more generic boring villain (fireball god boy). I almost wish Nok nok and Linzi were the protagonists.

I don't think I'll ever bother replaying it twice, primarily because once you get your builds setup by level ~12 there's nothing new gameplay wise and you're just wading through huge amounts of plot/kingdom padding. But I do feel like playing the early game again on Hard. What are some interesting/different builds to try? I felt like all my characters were ending up physical damage bombers, where the modus operandi is buffed physical dudes with sneak attack smashing people for hundreds of damage per turn (or bombs). Are druids fun? Dragon disciples?

Here is my take on the main themes. The two major ones are:
1) What it takes to be a king/ruler ("Kingmaker" etc-etc)
2) Atonement (several characters within the games are seeking forgiveness/atonement, Nyrissa, Ivar, Tristian etc-etc)
The 2 main themes can be combined graciously, since a good ruler needs to know when to show mercy. Also note that Nyrissa's story is basically her having to earn the Lantern King's forgiveness for the hubris of wanting a kingdom of her own.

The main device is the similarities/contrast between Nyrissa's and MC's stories. Similarities/contrast (what Kundera would call "ironic relationships between different story elements", but I am translating this from Greek), as a device, is used throughout the game. For example, Lacrymas first pointed out to me the contrast between Valerie and Oleg's wife. Which is what initially got me to suspect that there is serious work going on here.

Another device is the Lantern King himself. He is basically the school for wannabe kings, and he who brings most of everything together in the game, kinda like the bass in a rock song. "Educating" Kings is not his motivation, but still it is his role.

So while I believe that Nyrissa's part could have been done better, I find that her story is very relevant to everything. She failed to be a "King". You have to be a King. What did you learn from her story?

(There are also minor themes that are given different takes. What does one story matter (Linzi, Lantern King, the artisan Shaynih'a), bullying (Nok-Nok, Linzi), hybris (Nyrissa, Vordakai) etc.)

In conclusion, I do not agree with your comment on the mcguffins. And now that you have the overview of my take, maybe you can see why I am impressed with the themes in this game. Like, what other game has ever done something like this?

My argument is that you are not really a 'king/ruler' in any meaningful sense throughout PKM, not in a way that develops the themes of what it takes to rule.

Main quest / sidequests / etc don't really ever grapple with things like the sacrifices and difficult compromises involved in rulership, the political intrigue, etc, etc. There are very isolated moments, like when there's a riot and you pick some dialogue option. But there's little sense that you are really making decisions that impact a lot of people's lives and that you must face the consequences of it in any way. You get a bunch of advisor dialogues that are like taking a random page from a CYOA book that you haven't read - "here's the Gologolos from the Bollocknanny Region famed for their sneaky ways trying to sell Pumpernickel in our country, what should we do? [Bonus +3 meaningless browser game stat / -3]." Going for a Arcane heavy Kingdom or taking aggressive military options doesn't seem to, AFAIK, make any difference.

Most of the main plot itself could easily happen without any kingdom element. There's no politics at all, even before the inevitable Ancient Evil stuff. As someone not familiar with Pathfinder and the setting, none of it meant anything. You get an early choice on Advisor that makes itself out to be consequential, but it's not. Your barony grows in a total vacuum where nothing happens - and then almost everything that does happen, is basically a standard RPG ancient evil/curse stuff, rather than anything related to the dilemmas of rulership or geopolitics. You are never asked to choose between saving a border town and risking a general conflagration of monsters or surrending some of your lands/populations to keep the others safe, for example. Imagine you weren't a king of the Stolen Lands, and the NPC king just keeps sending you out on missions to solve problems in his lands - everything would play out identically.There's not even any real tension or change around how your companions adapt to becoming advisors of a kingdom.

Don't get me wrong, as I say, it's a lovely game and I enjoyed it very much. But it really had nothing to do with rulership. Suddenly being announced King just made me laugh - it was just as outlandish and non-consequential as being KNIGHT COMMANDER or WARDEN-DEFENDER (or whatever they called it) in other games.

I can also see how you enjoyed and saw much more in these connections. I was definitely impressed by how everything you witnessed in earlier chapters started fitting together into a big mosaic in the later chapters, right down to the background of each party member.

 

[Efe]

i agree with you but this is neither a grand strategy or simulation game, so these expectations are unrealistic.
you are made baron because you secure a region.
you are made a king because you defeated an even greater evil.

its just game stroking your ego so you can take a hit of dopamine and forget being a party of murderhobos for a moment.

 

[deuxhero]

It's not like adventurer kings are entirely without precedent. King Arthur and his Knights of the Round (who are at least advisers in his government) being the obvious one.

 

[Tigranes]

All of that is fine. I don't need the game to make me feel like a king. I don't play RPGs for dumb 'ego boosts', I'm fine with being a murderhobo.

My point is that unlike what Trashos experienced, I didn't think the game was a tour de force of storytelling around the theme of rulership and its dilemmas. Kingship is mostly irrelevant, in my view, to the story & what you actually get up to in the game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I would not say kingdom management is irrelevant; I'd say it is not fully fleshed out.

I want to see a restored mine if I restored it. I want to see border patrols killing Pitaxian spies if I built barracks on the borders. If Regongar built an army of magic nukers I want to see it work on the exploration level. Somehow. I want rebuilt temples and fortressess look restored and glorious.

But I understand the reason Owlcat did not have resources for that.

 

[Daidre]

+4 can be legal depending on how you interpret the rules. Blood Havoc is not explicitly restricted to be taken once only. It replaces a level 1 bloodline power but you can chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one as a crossblooded sorcerer.

I am kinda grew tired of this discussion already, but even mod author (https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/129) does not agree about "legal":

 

[Sykar]

+4 can be legal depending on how you interpret the rules. Blood Havoc is not explicitly restricted to be taken once only. It replaces a level 1 bloodline power but you can chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one as a crossblooded sorcerer.

I am kinda grew tired of this discussion already, but even mod author (https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/129) does not agree about "legal":

It doesn't fucking matter what he considers. I have proven it beyond a shadow of doubt that +3 damage per die is legal in P&P and +4 can be ruled legal depending on whether you consider it legal that Blood Havoc can be chosen more than once. The description of Blood Havoc does not make that clear. Nice how instead of acknowledging that you were talking out of your arse with half baked research, mistaking Bloodline Power for Bloodline Arcana, you continue to double down with meaningless BS.
This does not even address the fact that crossblooded socerer gets the full power of his damage increase already at level 3 while Sorcerer needs to level to iirc 15 for Sense Vitals to give him his full 12d6 SA. Which of course entails that AT can only really compete at later levels and is quite a bit behind early on. That rogue level hurts his damage progression a lot during the first 5 levels. Which again reinforces my argument that Orc/Draconic crossblooded sorcerer has a higher overall damage output than AT which considering that AT offers so much more than just damage is actually fine.

Edit: Also I am certain what the author meant with "cheat" is that Blood Havoc affects all spells instead of just spells you have spell focus for or bloodline spells. Why do I think this? I never enabled anything in the UMM for EA mod I essentially play the "base mod". Will make a quick check now.

Edit 2: Ok just checked and found nothing about Blood Havoc in the UMM menu. The only inference I can make is that the implementation of Blood Havoc is somewhat too broad, granting a damage bonus to ALL sorcerer/bloodrager/bloodline spells instead of just bloodline spells + spells you have spell focus for. Which is a minor thing if you restrict your selection to damage spells you have a focus for. So if you want to consider this "cheating" it is easily circumvented so you still have no leg to stand upon and ultimately is utterly trivial nitpick.

 

[The_Mask]

All of that is fine. I don't need the game to make me feel like a king. I don't play RPGs for dumb 'ego boosts', I'm fine with being a murderhobo.

My point is that unlike what Trashos experienced, I didn't think the game was a tour de force of storytelling around the theme of rulership and its dilemmas. Kingship is mostly irrelevant, in my view, to the story & what you actually get up to in the game.

Yeah, you're probably right, but gosh darn it it's great to see the game try. I don't know. I appreciated the honest, whole hearted attempt.

 

[Daidre]

It doesn't fucking matter what he considers. I have proven it beyond a shadow of doubt that +3 damage per die is legal in P&P and +4 can be ruled legal depending on whether you consider it legal that Blood Havoc can be chosen more than once. The description does not make that clear. Nice how instead of acknowledging that you were talking out of your arse with half baked research, mistaking Bloodline Power for Bloodline Arcana, you continue to double down with meaningless BS.

I could easily agree that I indeed mixed Arcana and bloodline traits in hurry. My mistake.
But comparing vanilla AT to:

1) Archetype that is not in game
2) With Bloodline Mutation (not in game)
3) Taken twice
4) That you need to switch on Custom Bullshit/Cheats option for in mod menu
5) That does twice more damage by your own(!) math comparing to what often seen as most broken caster in game (AT):

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.
AT basically sits at 12d6 with Sense Vitals which means on average he/she adds 3.5*12=42 damage which is conditional and not always available especially early.

Is somehow "legal" and not "cheating"?
I think this is where my English suffers critical failure.

 

[Sykar]

It doesn't fucking matter what he considers. I have proven it beyond a shadow of doubt that +3 damage per die is legal in P&P and +4 can be ruled legal depending on whether you consider it legal that Blood Havoc can be chosen more than once. The description does not make that clear. Nice how instead of acknowledging that you were talking out of your arse with half baked research, mistaking Bloodline Power for Bloodline Arcana, you continue to double down with meaningless BS.

I could easily agree that I indeed mixed Arcana and bloodline traits in hurry. My mistake.
But comparing vanilla AT to:

1) Archetype that is not in game
2) With Bloodline Mutation (not in game)
3) Taken twice
4) That you need to switch on Custom Bullshit/Cheats option for in mod menu
5) That does twice more damage by your own(!) math comparing to what often seen as most broken caster in game (AT):

Close? Damage oriented crossblooded sorcerer with orc and dragon bloodline gets +4 damage per die to his chosen element,+3 to the others. For relevant spells that is anywhere between 40-100 extra damage for high level spells. Disintegrate even 3*40=120 for all types.
AT basically sits at 12d6 with Sense Vitals which means on average he/she adds 3.5*12=42 damage which is conditional and not always available especially early.

Is somehow "legal" and not "cheating"?
I think this is where my English suffers critical failure.

1.)Meaningless as long as the author tries to implement as closely as possible to P&P rules which he did. The only caveat is that it applies to all sorcerer spells and bloodline spells instead to spells you have a spell focus for and bloodline spells. A rather minor problem which considering that most of your damage spells will be evocation anyway.
2.)Implemented close to P&P rules so meaningless
3.)Technically allowed
4.) WRONG. AGAIN. It is active right in the base mod and needs no activation whatsoever. Stop talking out of your ass.
5.) What? The average gain per dice is 3 or 4, depending if you allow yourself to take it twice or not. That is right there with AT. The main advantage is that you can get it right out of the gate and do not have to wait for SA stacking which wont really start until level 3 with SA from rogue and accomplished sneak attacker.

Cheating would be if for some reason I would think that Blood Havoc should give +5 damage per die or up my stats to base value 50. THAT is cheating. Mods are legal as long as they are closely implemented like the P&P version.

As I have shown earlier, even if you consider only +3 legal crossblooded still outdamages AT at lower levels and with damage dice of 20. 10 damage dice spells the AT has an advantage and 15 the difference is 45 vs 42 which is basically nothing for practical purposes. Which is not a problem because AT has far more utility. Meanwhile crossblooded sorcerer pays a hefty price for that extra damage by losing one spell known per level which really means that you run around with 1 spell at first level.
You know what is cheating? Respeccing.

It is not your English that is a failure, it is your overblown ego.

 

[Efe]

so much butthurt just because someone called what you're using a illegal/cheat
mod page supports her claim

 

[Sykar]

Except it doesn't.

 

[Daidre]

OK, Wizard > AT, character lvl 10
casts Fireball
10d6 - ~35 avg damage

Crossblooded sorcerer lvl 10 with x2 Blood Havoc casts Fireball:
10d6 + 40 ~ 75 avg damage

Everything is fair! Sublime character building, AT sucks!

PS And I checked it in the morning, Blood Havoc is not even in the list until you set

But it is my ego that stops me from admitting that I enjoy playing somehow overpowered, due to mods, characters and compels me to argue that it is legal in PnP, if you stretch rules wide enough!

 

[Sykar]

OK, Wizard > AT lvl 10
casts Fireball
10d6 - ~35 avg damage

Crossblooded sorcerer lvl 10 with x2 Blood Havoc casts Fireball:
10d6 + 40 ~ 75 avg damage

Everything is fair! Sublime character building, AT sucks!

PS And I checked it in the morning, Blood Havoc is not even in the list until you set

But it is my ego that stops me from admitting that I enjoy playing somehow overpowered, due to mods, characters and compels me to argue that it is legal in PnP, if you stretch rules wide enough!

Stacking Blood Havoc and draconic/orc bloodline arcana to +3 per die of chosen element/spell focus/bloodline spell is legal per P&P. I have proven that without question, no idea why you are still doubling down, you were wrong, deal with it. I have admitted that +4 is a stretch but since you still have failed to provide an example where a developer specifically says that it was not meant to be taken twice I will keep it in the "stretch" department. I have played with EA without ever going into the UMM menu until now so no I never enabled a "cheat". That being said Blood Havoc is a legal optional feature of the P&P version of the game and the implementation is very close to the P&P version, just a little to broad. Scream if you want, wail if you must but claiming it is "illegal" makes you look like child having a tantrum.

I never said AT sucks. I said crossblooded Orc/Draconic outdamages AT, even with the completely legal +3 to damage spells per die. The only reason I brought it up was because Haplo implied somehow that AT deals more damage than crossblooded O/C sorc. They don´t even at "just" +3 damage per die.

Yeah a level 10 AT gets outdamaged because he does not have yet Surprise Spell class feature, whoopdiedoo, nice how you can cherry pick shit. Once the AT gets Surprise Spells at level 14 things are different again. At 14 a 10d6 fireball from the O/D crossblodded still deals 10d6+30(or +40) damage. Now the AT will deal 10d6+11d6 damage (1d6 rogue, 1d6 feat, 4d6 SV and 5d6 AT) That averages out to 35+42=77 damage with the potential to deal significantly more, or less. At level 15 he will deal 10d6+12d6 damage which will be 81 damage on average.

That still does not change the fact that AT has far superior utility. Many more spells known plus thief skills and he can even use them at range plus inbuilt invisibility class feature. Getting sneak attacks in on an AT even with the original strict rules is not that hard. Orc/draconic bloodline is a highly specialized sorcerer whose main strength is dealing damage and not much else since you have so few spells known available to you. Why this is bothering you I have no idea. The balance is absolutely fine all factors considered. I would even go so far and say that AT has more survivability than crossblooded. Hell you could swap rogue with Vivi and get +4 to dex or int depending what you want. Crossblooded O/D does not have that luxury its spell progression is already hindered enough. Not to mention the +2 will save advantage.

 

[Yosharian]

Also blood havoc replacing level 1 power makes no sense. It is then completely and utterly useless for draconic and orc bloodlines and the other two blood mutations are not available at level one. So in my book, more of a fix. Considering that you give up a lot for that extra blood line a fair trade off. Much narrower focus compared to regular sorcerer and -2 will is not a great but still noticable drawback.

Yes, main point of Blood Havok is to give an option for other Bloodlines not to suck as much in comparison next to damage-oriented Dragon/Orc sorcs. Not to make outliners twice more broken.

And original author of Eldritch Arcana even explained, that Crossblooded Sorc is kinda broken in the mod because main penalty - they get new spell levels at one character level later than normal sorc, turned out to be impossible to implement with the mod. So "Use at your own discretion" case.

It not like I judge you - I "homebrewed" way too many full bab bards and Kensai/Mage/Thiefs for this myself in NWN and BG.

Sorry but unless the level 1 bloodline power sucks really bad there is no reason to ever chose this. +1 to damage per die is meaningless early on and only somewhat noticeable later. Hell thinking about it, the implementation by paizo is really retarded because it makes arcane bloodline even better to be combined with orc bloodline. The level 1 bloodline power of arcane is not very strong and highly situational but another +2 DC on top of a lot of bonus spells negating your biggest weakness means that arcane bloodline wins out again as it does so often.

I could not care less whether you "judge me". I do care that you continue to ignore that AT is just as faultily implemented and is probably the biggest beneficiary of the laughable flanking implementation. If you think EA's implementation of CB is broken, then AT is just as broken. Yet just because it is Owlcat doing the implementation it somehow is "not cheating". Good joke.

I'm lost here, why is it bad to replace something like Touch of Rage for example with Blood Havoc? And how are you taking it twice?

 

[Sykar]

Also blood havoc replacing level 1 power makes no sense. It is then completely and utterly useless for draconic and orc bloodlines and the other two blood mutations are not available at level one. So in my book, more of a fix. Considering that you give up a lot for that extra blood line a fair trade off. Much narrower focus compared to regular sorcerer and -2 will is not a great but still noticable drawback.

Yes, main point of Blood Havok is to give an option for other Bloodlines not to suck as much in comparison next to damage-oriented Dragon/Orc sorcs. Not to make outliners twice more broken.

And original author of Eldritch Arcana even explained, that Crossblooded Sorc is kinda broken in the mod because main penalty - they get new spell levels at one character level later than normal sorc, turned out to be impossible to implement with the mod. So "Use at your own discretion" case.

It not like I judge you - I "homebrewed" way too many full bab bards and Kensai/Mage/Thiefs for this myself in NWN and BG.

Sorry but unless the level 1 bloodline power sucks really bad there is no reason to ever chose this. +1 to damage per die is meaningless early on and only somewhat noticeable later. Hell thinking about it, the implementation by paizo is really retarded because it makes arcane bloodline even better to be combined with orc bloodline. The level 1 bloodline power of arcane is not very strong and highly situational but another +2 DC on top of a lot of bonus spells negating your biggest weakness means that arcane bloodline wins out again as it does so often.

I could not care less whether you "judge me". I do care that you continue to ignore that AT is just as faultily implemented and is probably the biggest beneficiary of the laughable flanking implementation. If you think EA's implementation of CB is broken, then AT is just as broken. Yet just because it is Owlcat doing the implementation it somehow is "not cheating". Good joke.

I'm lost here, why is it bad to replace something like Touch of Rage for example with Blood Havoc? And how are you taking it twice?

We were long past the point and at that point I too had not realized that bloodline power != bloodline arcana mostly because I have never played the P&P version and are therefore not intimately familiar with it. A crossblooded can take it twice because the archetype is allowed to chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/

"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

So at level 3 you could pick your second level 1 power and swap it again for Blood Havoc. Whether that should be allowed or not is up to your discretion. Considering the insane shit that is allowed already I see no problem allowing it nor do I see a problem in balance. Fun fact Orc/Draconic is hardly ever played in P&P. You know what it is used for mostly according to many on the paizo forums? 1 level dip for evocation/admixture specialist wizard. And here we have some morons crying about playing full fledged crossblooded sorcerer and yelling "cheating" when they have not the foggiest what they are talking about.

 

[Yosharian]

+4 can be legal depending on how you interpret the rules. Blood Havoc is not explicitly restricted to be taken once only. It replaces a level 1 bloodline power but you can chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one as a crossblooded sorcerer. So one can make the argument that a crossblooded can swap his first level 1 bloodline power to Blood Havoc at level 1 and then again replaces his second level 1 bloodline power with Blood Havoc a second time at level 3 when he chooses the second level 1 power instead of one of the two available level 3 ones.
While this is a stretch unless a paizo developer specifically stated somewhere that the intent was solely to be able to pick Blood Havoc once it is not strictly forbidden or illegal and should depend on DM and his groups discretion. Since this is a cRPG with loads of broken shit already in it I see no reason why it should be illegal.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/
"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

Weeeell I don't know about that, feats for example you can only take twice when the feat's text specifically states that it is possible. For example Weapon Focus states "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon."

So I don't think it's correct to assume you can take a power like Blood Havoc twice just because the devs haven't explicitly stated it isn't allowed.

That said if your DM allows it, why not. I wouldn't allow it in my games though.

 

[Yosharian]

A crossblooded can take it twice because the archetype is allowed to chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/

"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

So at level 3 you could pick your second level 1 power and swap it again for Blood Havoc. Whether that should be allowed or not is up to your discretion. Considering the insane shit that is allowed already I see no problem allowing it nor do I see a problem in balance. Fun fact Orc/Draconic is hardly ever played in P&P. You know what it is used for mostly according to many on the paizo forums? 1 level dip for Evocation specialist sorcerer. And here we have some morons crying about playing full fledged crossblooded sorcerer and yelling "cheating" when they have not the foggiest what they are talking about.

Hmm. Well I'm not convinced but yeah, you might be right about it not being too OP.

I mean Crossblooded by itself is insanely cheesy anyway so it's fine I guess.

 

[Sykar]

A crossblooded can take it twice because the archetype is allowed to chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/

"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

So at level 3 you could pick your second level 1 power and swap it again for Blood Havoc. Whether that should be allowed or not is up to your discretion. Considering the insane shit that is allowed already I see no problem allowing it nor do I see a problem in balance. Fun fact Orc/Draconic is hardly ever played in P&P. You know what it is used for mostly according to many on the paizo forums? 1 level dip for Evocation specialist sorcerer. And here we have some morons crying about playing full fledged crossblooded sorcerer and yelling "cheating" when they have not the foggiest what they are talking about.

Hmm. Well I'm not convinced but yeah, you might be right about it not being too OP.

I mean Crossblooded by itself is insanely cheesy anyway so it's fine I guess.

Well many build that dips in vivisectionist 1/2 tend to be extremely powerful and there are dozens of builds with them.

+4 can be legal depending on how you interpret the rules. Blood Havoc is not explicitly restricted to be taken once only. It replaces a level 1 bloodline power but you can chose a lower level bloodline power instead of a current level one as a crossblooded sorcerer. So one can make the argument that a crossblooded can swap his first level 1 bloodline power to Blood Havoc at level 1 and then again replaces his second level 1 bloodline power with Blood Havoc a second time at level 3 when he chooses the second level 1 power instead of one of the two available level 3 ones.
While this is a stretch unless a paizo developer specifically stated somewhere that the intent was solely to be able to pick Blood Havoc once it is not strictly forbidden or illegal and should depend on DM and his groups discretion. Since this is a cRPG with loads of broken shit already in it I see no reason why it should be illegal.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/co...types/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded/
"At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

Weeeell I don't know about that, feats for example you can only take twice when the feat's text specifically states that it is possible. For example Weapon Focus states "Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon."

So I don't think it's correct to assume you can take a power like Blood Havoc twice just because the devs haven't explicitly stated it isn't allowed.

That said if your DM allows it, why not. I wouldn't allow it in my games though.

But the text explicitly states that it does NOT stack. There is no text whatsoever for Blood Havoc one way or the other. My best guess is that the crossblooded archetype came after blood mutations were introduced and they forgot about clarifying it since this is a moot point for single bloodline sorcerer. That being said, +1 more or less is not really that big of a deal later in the game though a decent boost early. When you are level 15+ and hammer out 100-200+ damage AoEs whether you have +10 extra or not matters very very rarely.

 

[Daidre]

*sigh*, second round:
Wizard >Rogue > AT, character level 20 casts Stormbolts
20d8 + 12d6 sneak ~ 132 avg, enemy flunked and wizard buffed by Sense Vitals

Crossblooded sorcerer lvl 20 with x2 Blood Havoc casts Stormbolts:
20d8 + 80 ~ 170 avg, no requirements

+30% more damage per cast, but its completely fair since Sorc has less skillpoints and sacrificed Claws, Touch of Rage and precious -2 Will for this...

I'm lost here, why is it bad to replace something like Touch of Rage for example with Blood Havoc? And how are you taking it twice?

Modder who made Eldritch Arcana implemented it this way - every bloodline has it's own version of Blood Havoc, so Crossblooded Sorc gets two of them on the list, when you switch on "Homebrew" option in the mod menu.

 

[Sykar]

*sigh*, second round:
Wizard >Rogue > AT, character level 20 casts Stormbolts
20d8 + 12d6 sneak ~ 132 avg, enemy flunked and wizard buffed by Sense Vitals

Crossblooded sorcerer lvl 20 with x2 Blood Havoc casts Stormbolts:
20d8 + 80 ~ 170 avg, no requirements

+30% more damage per cast, but its completely fair since Sorc has less skillpoints and sacrificed Claws, Touch of Rage and precious -2 Will for this...

I'm lost here, why is it bad to replace something like Touch of Rage for example with Blood Havoc? And how are you taking it twice?

Modder who made Eldritch Arcana implemented it this way - every bloodline has it's own version of Blood Havoc, so Crossblooded Sorc gets two of them on the list, when you switch on "Homebrew" option in the mod menu.

Wow there is so much wrong with this it is not even funny. First and foremost there is in fact a condition/restriction. One you need to have chosen a lighting dragon subtype. While Stormbolts is a great level 8 spell, lightning spells are ,until level 6 with Chain Lightning, rather lackluster to say the least. There are hardly any lighting spells at all in fact. Fire is the overall better element especially in this game because you have access to far more and far better damage spells especially in terms of (ranged) AoE. That is even true for level 3 spells because Fireball >> Lightning Bolt except in certain circumstances. Chain Lighting is the first really good lighting spell and won't be available until level 12.

No it is not just sacrificed Claws and Touch of Rage. You also sacrificed 9 spells known. -2 Will is the icing on the cake. It is not a huge detriment but it still is one on top of everything else.
No it is not just more skill points. ALL skills are class skills for the AT which means +3 bonus to any skill you have at least 1 rank in. An AT is a fully fledged rogue so you do not have to worry about bringing one in addition to the AT unless you feel you want someone for second chances in case you fail a pick lock or want some extra SAs in. With ranged legerdermain you can safely pop most traps and do not have to worry about failing the check. Inbuilt Invis means you have many rounds where you can safely apply ranged touch attacks which will all benefit from SA. Unless you play solo it really is not that hard to keep enemies flat footed.
Again what is your problem? O/D sorcerer offers almost nothing but damage. AT offers a lot more than damage and is still a good damage dealer. In fact hardly anyone plays O/D sorcerer but only uses it for a level 1 dip for their evocation/admixture wizards. You really start looking like an utter tool who likes to cherry pick shit and then on one example proclaims "OP"!