Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Yosharian]

Yosharian I saw that in your build guide you turn Harrim into a Cleric of Groetus 3/Empyreal Sorcerer 7/Mystic Theurge 10 thing to try to "salvage" him since he has bad stats. I like him as a character so I'm gonna use him. I saw that Nerd Commando just simply turns him into a Druid in his attempt to "salvage". Is the power difference between your choices that big or can I go with whatever?

OK so there are a couple of things at play here, first of all by making him an MT we sacrifice his domain power progression and some Cleric spellcasting ability. Harrim's two domains are Chaos and Destruction. Harrim has 14 Strength so Destructive Smite is of limited use, still not too bad. Destructive Aura is nice because it can power up our allies' attacks. Touch of Chaos is rather nice for boss fights, but perhaps you'd be too busy casting other spells (but in any case, Touch of Chaos doesn't scale at all, so it's equally good at Cleric 1 as it is at Cleric 20). Chaos Blade is basically pointless since most enemies won't be Lawful.

So overall the Domain abilities are nothing to write home about. Furthermore, I tend to build with an emphasis on limited resting, so I dislike abilities like Destructive Smite that have limited uses per day. All of Harrim's domain abilities run contrary to this philosophy.

So with the Domain abilities being limited, all we're left with is the Cleric spellcasting, since Harrim's ability to Channel Energy is pretty wack. Well, I'd much rather have an MT with slightly weaker Cleric spell progression and pretty good Sorcerer progression, with spell slots lasting for days.

Finally, I wanted something a little different to just standard Cleric, to make Harrim stand out from my existing Cleric of Erastil build. It was more this desire for a unique build, than a need to have something which copes well with Unfair difficulty.

I hope this explains why I went for MT, but honestly if you want to stick with standard Cleric, it's all good.

 

[Tigranes]

You fucks tell me what class combo to try next

I like Grenadier but it's going to play out basically same as Jubilost right?

Is 4 Dragon Disciple worth it in actually smashing people with breath/bite attacks?

Not a fan of the fiddly spell attack stuff that Sword Saints had and don't know if that extends to other Magus / Eldritch Scion hybrids

Druid perhaps? Can that effectively synergise with all the bite oriented items?

 

[Sjukob]

Is 4 Dragon Disciple worth it in actually smashing people with breath/bite attacks?

I'm currently playing monk/sorcerer/dragon disciple motherless tiefling, bites from motherless liniage and dragon disciple class do stack, can't speak for feral mutagen though. What inspired me to play this build is seeing playthrough of this guy with the exact same class. Skip to 17:36 if timestamp doesn't load.

Druid perhaps? Can that effectively synergise with all the bite oriented items?

From my limited experience with druids it takes a lot of time for them to kick off, mostly you are going to be a sidekick for your pet.

 

[Xamenos]

So with the Domain abilities being limited, all we're left with is the Cleric spellcasting, since Harrim's ability to Channel Energy is pretty wack. Well, I'd much rather have an MT with slightly weaker Cleric spell progression and pretty good Sorcerer progression, with spell slots lasting for days.

Finally, I wanted something a little different to just standard Cleric, to make Harrim stand out from my existing Cleric of Erastil build. It was more this desire for a unique build, than a need to have something which copes well with Unfair difficulty.

I hope this explains why I went for MT, but honestly if you want to stick with standard Cleric, it's all good.

I wouldn't call losing 8th and 9th level spells "slightly weaker". Unless you have another full Cleric to cast your Holy Auras and Mass Heals, that is.

At least I can understand wanting to try a different build. But by not adding the the final sentence of your post as a disclaimer I think you're doing a disservice to the poor people who follow your build thinking it's the most powerful when it's not.

 

[Yosharian]

Nothing fiddly about my Sword Saint build tho

Just cast a buff and wade into combat

No spell strike, no spell combat, simple

 

[Tigranes]

Well, I expect I'll try the magus / dragon stuff with Regongar

Rolled a monster tactician

 

[Haplo]

I don't think I'll ever bother replaying it twice, primarily because once you get your builds setup by level ~12 there's nothing new gameplay wise and you're just wading through huge amounts of plot/kingdom padding. But I do feel like playing the early game again on Hard. What are some interesting/different builds to try? I felt like all my characters were ending up physical damage bombers, where the modus operandi is buffed physical dudes with sneak attack smashing people for hundreds of damage per turn (or bombs). Are druids fun? Dragon disciples?

Arcane Trickster is fun, particularly Turn Based.
Of course, Octavia can do 80-90% of what an optimized main char can, so...

 

[Haplo]

Also if you run out of bombs all the time presumably you are also running out of Rages and Songs and mage spells equally fast because those guys must also be using it all every single turn

Barbarian Rage runs out insanely fast if you use it every fight so you defeated your own argument there.

That was the point, genius - plenty of classes will run out of shit superfast if you have them use the shit every single turn. (Another reason why turn based feels better.)

I'm not interested in X companion/class is BEST/WORST debate, just that to hear grampy complain noknok is bad and jubilost is bad was mindblowing

You misunderstood my point, I'm saying that, like bombs, rage also runs out extremely fast and thus isn't safe to use every fight. Point being, both rage and bombs are shit in this game, in the sense that the game throws shit tons of trash mobs at you and so you really need resources that last a long time

Barbarian really needs a feat similar to Lingering Performance, but for rage

There are items that increase rage duration. Having like 40 rounds of active rage between rests is plenty in my book.

 

[Sjukob]

Arcane Trickster is fun, particularly Turn Based.

Cool, but is there a way to bypass early game "sucks ass" phase of spell casters ?

 

[Daidre]

Cool, but is there a way to bypass early game "sucks ass" phase of spell casters ?

My wizards, on Hard and Unfair, do the most crucial work at any encounter with Grease, Magic Missile, Stone Call and Glitterdust. And getting Stinking Cloud allows them to neuter almost anything without poison immunity. Cleric has single target СС spells, channeling (damaging version is brutal) and heals. Goes completely nuts on level 5 with Animate Dead. Druid gets pet and could kite anything to death over his AoE spells.

There is no "suck" to bypass.

AT only loses 1 level of spell progression and gets new spells with the same speed as Sorc. If delay to level 3 spells seems too bad, his only Rogue/Vivi level could me moved to level 7 (to sacrifice his mid-game power for early-game power).

 

[Sjukob]

I should've specified that I was talking about arcane casters.

Grease, Stone Call, Glitterdust

Can be done by other classes, like bard and druid.

My wizards, on Hard and Unfair... Magic Missile

Don't get me started on inflated numbers in this game.

Stinking Cloud

Yeah, completely busted spell at any point in the game. But early a good portion of enemies have good fortitude saves, you mostly want to target will or reflex, but I won't deny that this spell can fuck up anything not immune to poison.

Cleric has single target SS spells, channeling (damaging version is brutal) and heals. Goes completely nuts on level 5 with Animate Dead.

I fucking hate clerics with passion, especially after I tried oracle from eldritch arcana mod. I wanted to go on a rant about it, but I'll just say that it's a very situational class that struggles to do anything other than casting and channeling energy. They don't do much of anything unless you really need certain divine spells or healing and their coolest stuff comes into play way later, when they get access to level 6 spells. Also like wizards they are very limited in spell slots early. While oracles can't channel energy (or use cool domain powers like guarded hearth) they are spontaneous casters and get some free shit on top to help them fill other roles, like backline reach melee for example, so with more spammable spells and build flexibility they are generally more helpful throughout the game in comparison to clerics, and they can still heal your party alright, they get all the cure (or inflict) spells for free.

AT only loses 1 level of spell progression and gets new spells with the same speed as Sorc. If delay to level 3 spells seems too bad, his only Rogue/Vivi level could me moved to level 7 (to sacrifice his mid-game power for early-game power).

You see, my problem is that when I think of arcane trickster I want to see big numbers and enemies getting nuked into oblivion. Too bad, can't do it unless your level is high enough and up to that point I would rather use other ranged DD options: grenadier, ranger, slayer, eldritch archer. And if I wanted a DC caster I would go with something like conjuration sage sorcerer instead.

So when I think of a ranged DD and take a look at the arcane trickster I understand that the calss won't do it's role until way later into the game, it will be getting outperformed by martials and alchemists for a long time, and then wizards can't cast for shit because they have so few spell slots and if you make a sorcerer he gets a massive delay to his spell level progression. Oh and I almost forgot that if you play campaign season of bloom seriously screws casters over with all the spell resistant mobs running around this early.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I like this style of discussion.

A: Class XXX is shit.
B: But class XXX can be efficient at the beginning of the game because of (1) and (2), in the middle of the game because of (3), and on the highest levels of difficulty, too.
A: I will never use (1) and (2) because reasons, high difficulty is numbers, (3) can be done by other means. Class XXX is shit.

I guess this can be considered a challenge playthrough. "Play in such a way so that class XXX is shit, but on such difficulty that the challenge is possible".
OK.

 

[Sjukob]

Well, if I didn't express myself clearly enough, I'll try again:

1. Arcane trickster is a very underwhelming ranged DPS option in the early game, because the class doesn't get it's strong tools until much later;
2. If you are looking for a ranged DPS you have many other options that are better until the moment arcane trickster becomes strong;
3. Even if those ranged options lose to arcane trickster in the late game, they still have carried you through a big portion of the campaign and they still scale well into the late game;
4. Any non damage dealing options arcane trickster can offer during his "growth" period are either outperformed by classes that specialize in that field or those other DPS classes, that offer better damage early, can bring them into play too.

In general, I don't like babysitting pure arcane casters until they can finally do something cool. As for the difficulty, yes it's numbers, inflated numbers that can make a lot of options unviable/undesirable or force a specific playstyle, which usually makes the game less fun to play. Though it's not a problem that is unique to kingmaker or RPGs in general.

 

[Daidre]

So when I think of a ranged DD and take a look at the arcane trickster I understand that the calss won't do it's role until way later into the game, it will be getting outperformed by martials and alchemists for a long time, and then wizards can't cast for shit because they have so few spell slots and if you make a sorcerer he gets a massive delay to his spell level progression. Oh and I almost forgot that if you play campaign season of bloom seriously screws casters over with all the spell resistant mobs running around this early.

AT is more than just damage. Even on Unfair (that you do not play because inflated) he has enough feats to work as classic Conjuration wizard at low levels, who can double up as party's thief, gets better auto-attack with Acid Splash and could snipe priority targets with Scorching Ray. And Sage Sorcerer's main advantage (+2 DC on School Specialization) does not come into play until lvl 15 anyway.

I would rather use other ranged DD options: grenadier, ranger, slayer, eldritch archer.

None of them could ever compare with high level AT going supernova with Grandmaster Rod and Stormbolts. 250 - 400 AoE damage in one cast just not in the realm of possibilities.

I kinda prefer spontaneous casters too and love Arcanist and Oracle from mods, but it is about convenience, not about raw power. And in raw power, 17+ lvl wizard >AT is a top dog, in original game at least.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Arcane Trickster is fun, particularly Turn Based.

Cool, but is there a way to bypass early game "sucks ass" phase of spell casters ?

Roll a barbarian

 

[Haplo]

Well, if I didn't express myself clearly enough, I'll try again:

1. Arcane trickster is a very underwhelming ranged DPS option in the early game, because the class doesn't get it's strong tools until much later;
2. If you are looking for a ranged DPS you have many other options that are better until the moment arcane trickster becomes strong;
3. Even if those ranged options lose to arcane trickster in the late game, they still have carried you through a big portion of the campaign and they still scale well into the late game;

Ranged touch attack cantrips carrying sneak damage dice are a slow and steady stream of damage when you have nothing more important to do. Handily beats other casters in this role. Won't come anywhere near a dedicated archer, of course, but a typical archer can hardly CC and disable whole mobs. Non-cantrip sneak atack boosted ray spells make short work of boss mobs.

Any non damage dealing options arcane trickster can offer during his "growth" period are either outperformed by classes that specialize in that field or those other DPS classes, that offer better damage early, can bring them into play too.

And now you've lost me. Which other classes can bring anywhere near as much to the table - or provide stronger control and nuking effects - then a Wizard/AT?
Barring tanking of course, that's a different story.

 

[Shadenuat]

wizards suck steam discussion part 500 Codex edition

pink tears in the rain

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

The only class that feels like it sucks a bit too much compared to others is barbarian.

 

[Shadenuat]

the only class I'd argue not use esp early game is Mystic Theurge.

barbarian has ability that adds their boost to ar to party and Mad Dog kit

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Are druids fun?

Summon Nature's Ally + Animal Growth + Linzi song + haste = Swarm of Giant Bears on Crack. Wild shape is gravy.

Is 4 Dragon Disciple worth it in actually smashing people with breath/bite attacks?

I consider DD to be highly overrated. Someone else mentioned that the stat buffs don't match the unlock requirements (you need a Cha spellcaster but you get bonus Int). It's also a 3/4 BAB class so it delays your attack progression even more. + 4 Str and +2 Natural armor is easier to get with Vivisectionist and has better all around abilities for lower investment ALTHOUGH it's not a passive so it runs out (10 min/level). Vivi also gets bite/claws and so do Barbs with rage powers, again without the DD drawbacks.

OTOH, being a dragon man is kind of cool.

Kineticist is super neat, you get Alchemist bombs without limits. You can even spam unlimited heals on your party. Completely busted class.

And now you've lost me. Which other classes can bring anywhere near as much to the table - or provide stronger control and nuking effects - then a Wizard/AT?
Barring tanking of course, that's a different story.

Hard to argue with this because sneak attack is so overpowered. I'm playing with the Closer to Tabletop mod and it nerfs flanking so AT feels much less useful.

Considering in PF winning is often not just about one fight but like 12 fights in a row I would recommend a sorc over a wizard just for the extra spell slots. It's not like the spll list in the game is so vast you need the extra versatility of a wizard.

 

[Lawntoilet]

the only class I'd argue not use esp early game is Mystic Theurge.

barbarian has ability that adds their boost to ar to party and Mad Dog kit

Invulnerable Rager isn't bad either, I made Amiri one (with some 2H Fighter and Thug thrown in, but mostly IR Barb) and she was alright.

 

[Sjukob]

Ranged touch attack cantrips carrying sneak damage dice are a slow and steady stream of damage when you have nothing more important to do. Handily beats other casters in this role. Won't come anywhere near a dedicated archer, of course, but a typical archer can hardly CC and disable whole mobs. Non-cantrip sneak atack boosted ray spells make short work of boss mobs.

Yes, It's ok overall. But I always feel like I could kill stuff faster if I throw in another melee or archer instead. Melee characters are pretty crazy in terms of how much damage they can output if they gang up on somebody, outflank/seize the moment and weapons with high crit range (15-20) just explode everything. Of course, you have to make sure that those melees have enough to +hit and that somebody can tank, but once somebody starts taking hits being surrounded by 3-4 (pets count too) such melees they are basically dead, and it doesn't matter how tough they are. With mods it's very easy to get such gear, past troll trouble everybody has keen scimitar/kukri/fauchard or some other crit fishing weapon. And martial classes come strong into play way earlier than casters and don't really have to save their resources. I don't like archers as much, because they don't synergize as well as melee, but they can be very good, especially rangers that bring in big damage and pet.

And now you've lost me. Which other classes can bring anywhere near as much to the table - or provide stronger control and nuking effects - then a Wizard/AT?
Barring tanking of course, that's a different story.

Alright, what I wanted to say is that you can grab enough good spells (buffs, disables) that will cover your needs and replace wizard/AT as a DPS/CC with somebody else. Here are some classes that provide some of the needed wizard stuff and more.

Bard - has CC that targets all three saves and can buff your party.

Alchemist - targets all three saves with his bombs and can buff the party.

Cleric/druid - targets all three saves with his spells, buffs and heals the party, brings pet and has access to unique domain stuff.

Magus/vivisectionist - strong damage dealer, brings buffs for the party.

Sacred huntsmaster/ranger - good damage, has buffs (well, ranger at least can buff himself) brings pet.

Kineticist - lol.

So my point is not that wizard/AT doesn't bring anything good, but rather that I can pick classes that cover wizard/AT stuff and can either become strong earlier or offer something unique, bard songs for example. Yes I would lose access to certain spells: stinking cloud, phantasmal killer, cloudkill and others (specialized casting with all feat bonuses); but it's not that important if party synergises well and you still get: haste, glitterdust, sirocco, chains of light, grease and other things. So that's how I feel - pure arcane casters are very underwhelming for a good portion of the game, even if they are very strong late, I would prefer to play classes that are strong from the beggining, well sorcerers at least can "spam" spells and sylvan has a pet, but wizards... eh. Mind that I don't think that arcane casters are bad at disables/buffs.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Arcane Trickster is excellent. You're one level behind, which can be negated if you have the skill check user get the XP. My AT is typically 1.5 levels ahead, and barely finished Troll Trouble. A pure wizard would not be able to do that as well. Early levels plays just like a wizard that can also skill monkey. The handful of sneak attack just makes their "idle time" in between casting a battle-changing spell. The wealth of consumables this game gives you also greatly improves the play of the character while you're waiting to hit Level 6. I did this at the gates of the Stag Lord's fortress. Once you've got Level 3 spells, you're good to go.

PS: I wouldn't dump on the kinetist. They do great damage with exotic damage types. I've mixed the NPC with water/air, and they have heal, grease, haste and then stack damage with great endurance. I consider them icing on a cake, rather than an essential component, but the Kineticist NPC has been working out very well for me.

 

[Tigranes]

So trying out early levels with Monster Tactician PC, Grenadier Merc, Valerie, Harrim, Amiri, on Hard.

I have now summoned a monster at least 40 times and I believe they have hit the enemy twice in total

Good times

 

[Efe]

whats the ab on your summons and ac on targets?