Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Pink Eye]

You can't deny BGs allowed more party flexibility at least in terms of alignment. Simply had more companions. I do not believe that game-lasting companion stories and lol lets fuck are worth a trade off. And the more companions there are, the more there's chance there are some decent ones (like Edwin or Korgan).

I want an evil sorcerer companion. I want a paladin companion.

I dont want monk companion.

Listen here tough guy. The next game is going to have a iconic character that IS a monk companion.

 

[Efe]

are you aware its going to be a companion only archetype (like how jaethal is undead) that doesnt use fists?

 

[Pink Eye]

are you aware its going to be a companion only archetype (like how jaethal is undead) that doesnt use fists?

wtf what? That doesn't make any sense at all. I haven't read the AP that the game is based on, because I don't want to spoil myself. But from the promotional art, he looks like a monk.

 

[Pink Eye]

Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Only chapter 1 in P:K has:
1. Jaethal, good stats for almost any class, undead immunities, immortal (!)
2. Regongar, 19 STR, one of the strongest melee classes in the game and easier-to-use version of it
3. Octavia, optimized for strongest DD-caster build in the game, 19 int
Chapter 2
1. Jubilost, strong class, 95% optimal build
2. Ekun, optimized simple Archer build with trip-on-bite pet, 30+ point buy
Chapter 3
Nok-Nok, optimized knife-master with 23 DEX, no comments

But yes, Valerie has 14 STR and Amiri's sword sucks. I'll give you that.

-Jaethal is "neither fish nor fowl." Inquisitor is an oddball class that doesn't fit a clear role. The PF party is hurting for good healers early on and she doesn't help matters being undead.

-Regongar is fine but slow grower. Magus requires intense micro to reach full effectiveness and burns out of points quickly. Not ideal for a support character in a RTwP game with hordes of enemies. Tell me most people wouldn't be better off with just a straight fighter or sorcerer. He's also chaotic evil , and you can't get rid of him, unlike BG companions who are all 100% optional.

-Octavia is good but multiclass hurts caster progression by delaying spell slots. No straight mages available in PF. Sure she's great at level 20 but you need to play her from levels 1-19 too. But she is one of the better ones. Although she has all that point buy and still dumped CON? r u srs? Transmutation is one of the weaker specialists too.

-Harrim is a lowish Wis cleric. wat? You have one job.

-Tristian is okay as a healbot (he was bugged at launch) but oh wait, he's gone now because story. Fuck you. Hope your party comp didn't depend on your healer or anything.

-Linzi is good but her Cha should be higher. 3E/PF casters are all about the casting stat. She's still never be as good as a full sorc/wizard.

-Jubilost is another odd class that requires micro and burns out of powers. He's great in the right group but again how much more effective is he than a straight archer or full mage? Given the rate of encounters he blows through his bombs in a couple fights.

-Ekun is so good I wonder if he was put into the game by mistake. Like an intern made a really effective character and the devs didn't notice until it was too late to change it.

-Nok nok is another evil character you can't ditch, a glass cannon who gets insta-gibbed by all the bruiser PF enemies.

This is the whole roster. If you don't like these character you better have the foresight to hire mercs at level 1 before the cost becomes unaffordable. Niche builds would make more sense in a game with a larger cast. Since you have to build a party from these options they should have been A. more broadly specced to fit into general archetypes and B. Not been a bunch of backstabbing a-holes who fuck things up constantly in unavoidable ways.

>she doesn't help matters being undead.
Except you can buy inflict harm potions super early from Bokken. So that isn't an issue.

>Inquisitor is an oddball class that doesn't fit a clear role
Inquisitor comes with teamwork feats and judgements. The class can also cast cleric spells too. All of this is moot anyways, because after level one you are free to customize her how you want. I always make her into fighter sword and board.

>Jaethal is "neither fish nor fowl."
Jaethal is a good companion. She has decent stats allowing for different build options. Is undead, which gives her amazing immunities. The biggest one in the early game is immunity from fear. Casters love to spam that on Unfair in the early game.

 

[Pink Eye]

Look guys, I managed to reproduce the camera bug from Fangberry cave:
1)Enter the cave
2)Grab your party and place them all the way here:

Spoiler

3)Save
4)Reload that save file
5)Enjoy the bug!
After a month of being troubled by this bug, I've finally figured it out. Now not to send this to the developers.

Before bug:

Spoiler

After bug:

Spoiler

 

[Shadenuat]

tbh even with all her immunes I would easily trade Jaethal on Unfair for 20 str fighter or 20 wis cleric. Sacred Huntsmaster is ok but in terms of raw power Jaethal has a lot of time to lift off unless you multi her into something broken.

Reg, Octavia, Nok, Ekun, Jubi, maybe Tristian just because he's full caster, and DLC companions are there, which is far from what I'd call a really rich roster.

to make comparisons to BG2, there just 3 Clerics are ALL powerful in their own way. I know it's different systems, but they just play better out of the box all I'm saying. And it wasn't that big of a deal to give Tristian or Harrim some better domains or spells for example.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

to make comparisons to BG2, there just 3 Clerics are ALL powerful in their own way. I know it's different systems, but they just play better out of the box all I'm saying. And it wasn't that big of a deal to give Tristian or Harrim some better domains or spells for example.

Yes exactly. Look at NWN2. Every companion pretty much bog-standard stats and inoffensive, generic class and build. I mean the dwarf becoming a monk is dumb but that's optional. Only questionable choice is gith cleric and only because it puts her a level behind, but it fits the story.

A guess you could say PF doesn't have any really generic classes or builds, and the rich depth of character systems would go to waste with plain old fighters and mages. Maybe they could have done something like PoE 2 and Div OS 2, give you some options for how each companion is configured right out of the gate. Something to think about for the sequel.

 

[Pink Eye]

>give you some options for how each companion is configured right out of the gate,
That'd be a good idea for their original characters, but I don't think it'd work for the iconic characters. Something something Paizo.

 

[Yosharian]

Every character in PF is a gimmick.

Only chapter 1 in P:K has:
1. Jaethal, good stats for almost any class, undead immunities, immortal (!)
2. Regongar, 19 STR, one of the strongest melee classes in the game and easier-to-use version of it
3. Octavia, optimized for strongest DD-caster build in the game, 19 int
Chapter 2
1. Jubilost, strong class, 95% optimal build
2. Ekun, optimized simple Archer build with trip-on-bite pet, 30+ point buy
Chapter 3
Nok-Nok, knife-master with 23 DEX, no comments

But yes, Valerie has 14 STR and Amiri's sword sucks. I'd give you that.

Jaethal is an Inquisitor, ew. Also first level feat is Toughness.

Regongar has Combat Casting as his level 1 feat, yet the only role that fits him is a reach damage dealer. I mean Combat Casting is generally an awful feat but especially on someone who has no business tanking anything whatsoever.

Octavia is pretty well-built, no complaints. Except that she's annoying as fuck and attached to Regongar. Oh and she dump-statted CON, fuck off.

Jubilost can pretty much only be a bomb-focused build, which is not the worst thing in the world, but Acid Bomb is a fucking terrible discovery, he should have Infusion.

Ekun is a ranger, rangers are trash. Alright rangers aren't that bad but I dislike favored enemy as a concept.

Nok-Nok has absolute trash feats and rogue talents.

 

[Yosharian]

Set him up to throw like 4 bombs per turn doing splash damage and his bomb array lets him get past almost any defence combination making him especially good for single high power targets as well

Also if you run out of bombs all the time presumably you are also running out of Rages and Songs and mage spells equally fast because those guys must also be using it all every single turn

Any Bard build that isn't total shit will pick up Lingering Performance to effectively triple the amount of song up-time they have.

Barbarian Rage runs out insanely fast if you use it every fight so you defeated your own argument there.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Jaethal is an Inquisitor, ew. Also first level feat is Toughness.
>Also first level feat is Toughness.
>Toughness.
>ew
I am going to commit suicide because of this comment. Catch you guys later.

 

[Yosharian]

Toughness is the feat you pick when there's nothing else to pick.

 

[Pink Eye]

Toughness is the feat you pick when there's nothing else to pick.

What's better than +3 to hit points while also giving you more HP each level up? Sure, the companions could have done better with more optimized feats, but I didn't design the companions, the developers did. All I'm saying here is that toughness isn't the end of the world.

 

[deuxhero]

Or when you use the Human Warpriest favored class bonus to get extra feats and want the same HP as everyone else.

Jaethal has bigger problems than toughness. The biggest being she took a class that struggles and made what is easily the single worst choice possible for her in that class. Inquisitor relies a lot on their domain, but Death Domain is pretty useless in all aspects (in fact, one of its powers is literally useless for her).

 

[Yosharian]

Toughness is the feat you pick when there's nothing else to pick.

What's better than +3 to hit points while also giving you more HP each level up? Sure, the companions could have done better with more optimized feats, but I didn't design the companions, the developers did. All I'm saying here is that toughness isn't the end of the world.

I never said it was the end of the world, but it's an average feat at best.

 

[Pink Eye]

Toughness is the feat you pick when there's nothing else to pick.

What's better than +3 to hit points while also giving you more HP each level up? Sure, the companions could have done better with more optimized feats, but I didn't design the companions, the developers did. All I'm saying here is that toughness isn't the end of the world.

I never said it was the end of the world, but it's an average feat at best.

>I never said it was the end of the world
Okay. Well, some people think it's an absolute trash feat, which isn't true.

 

[Pink Eye]

Shit boys! The last /v/ thread got archived! I'll be damned if this diamond of a post gets lost. I shall post it here to be preserved for all of eternity.

 

[Daidre]

Jaethal is an Inquisitor, ew. Also first level feat is Toughness.

Regongar has Combat Casting as his level 1 feat, yet the only role that fits him is a reach damage dealer. I mean Combat Casting is generally an awful feat but especially on someone who has no business tanking anything whatsoever.

Octavia is pretty well-built, no complaints. Except that she's annoying as fuck and attached to Regongar. Oh and she dump-statted CON, fuck off.

Jubilost can pretty much only be a bomb-focused build, which is not the worst thing in the world, but Acid Bomb is a fucking terrible discovery, he should have Infusion.

Ekun is a ranger, rangers are trash.

Nok-Nok has absolute trash feats and rogue talents.

Having one meh talent does not make or break character even on Unfair, not mentioning more rational difficulties levels. Actually, Toughness is pretty decent feat on early Unfair, where 5 extra HP is often a difference between KO and proper death. Its value disappear on noob-difficulties (up to Challenging).

Acid Bomb is almost mast-have for any bomber, you are supposed to use it against Branded Trolls with fire immunity. And against other fire resistant enemies like Linnorm, where Force bomb has 1d4 instead of 1d6.
Vanilla Ranger is AA class in Kingmaker: pet, free feats through Styles, decent spells (Lead blades and Sense Vitals mostly, pet buffs) and even historically sucky favored enemies are surprisingly good if you choose something like Undead + Fey.

This discussion reminds me of endless "Octavia's Rogue level suck!" posts, where people just do not have enough basic Pathfinder knowledge to figure out how character is meant to be used. Valerie prebuild for Stalwart Defender with Intimidation line (Shatter Defenses + Dreadful Carnage) is another example.

BTW, Yosharian have you completed a game once, or you are still... theorizing?

 

[Pink Eye]

>Toughness is pretty decent feat on early Unfair, where 5 extra HP is often a difference between KO and proper death. Its value disappear on noob-difficulties (up to Challenging).
Yes Smilodon! You tell that mean Yosh. Toughness is pretty good.

 

[Pink Eye]

>This discussion reminds me of endless "Ovtavia's Rogue level suck!" discussions
Oh yeah. I remember having PTSD from those steam days too.

 

[Yosharian]

5 extra hp doesn't make or break an unfair run. Ironman, maybe. If a character dies, you probably used the wrong strategy.

Extra hp becomes more useful around level 10+ where nuke spells start becoming more common and you can actually get one-shot, but even then it's barely worth a feat.

Acid Bomb is not a must have just because there's one chapter in the game where you come across fire enemies. Infusion on the other hand is literally a must have for any Alchemist.

Ranger.. alright I'll admit that the pet is good, and that the spells are useful. But the rest pales in comparison to other class features

 

[Daidre]

5 extra hp doesn't make or break an unfair run. Ironman, maybe.

Well, I have one pretty stupid example: I once started Unfair run with original builds on companions, but respecced Valerie with mod around level 3. Of course, I went for optimal, so all excessive CON went to STR and Toughness was replaced with something useful. In the end, instead of being a tank with some staying power who could take couple of hits, she started to fall flat on her face after first hit at her flat-footed AC.

If a character dies, you probably used the wrong strategy.

No offense, but here I start to doubt that you ever tried to do prologue on Unfair.

Acid Bomb is not a must have just because there's one chapter in the game where you come across fire enemies. Infusion on the other hand is literally a must have for any Alchemist.

He has Precise Bombs + Acid Bomb as his discoveries and both are necessary to be properly used against the main enemies in the chapter where he is introduced. Jubilost also gets instant level up if MC is level 6 or higher, so getting Infusion is not an issue. Only imperfect thing about him is the class: Grenadier gets Precise Bomb for free and that results in one extra discovery comparing to vanilla Alchemist.

Ranger.. alright I'll admit that the pet is good, and that the spells are useful. But the rest pales in comparison to other class features

Pet alone is strong enough to help him outperform any pure Fighter, Paladin, Monk or Barbarian (not Mad Dog). Slayer is stronger, but was added in the game later. Multi-classing muddles the values, but 3 Sacred Huntmaster + Ranger (2-hander, Teamwork feats) always been my best attempt to "fix" Amiri in unmodded runs.

 

[Yosharian]

5 extra hp doesn't make or break an unfair run. Ironman, maybe.

Well, I have one pretty stupid example: I once started Unfair run with original builds on companions, but respecced Valerie with mod around level 3. Of course, I went for optimal, so all excessive CON went to STR and Toughness was replaced with something useful. In the end, instead of being a tank with some staying power who could take couple of hits, she started to fall flat on her face after first hit at her flat-footed AC.

If a character dies, you probably used the wrong strategy.

No offense, but here I start to doubt that you ever tried to do prologue on Unfair.

Acid Bomb is not a must have just because there's one chapter in the game where you come across fire enemies. Infusion on the other hand is literally a must have for any Alchemist.

He has Precise Bombs + Acid Bomb as his discoveries and both are necessary to be properly used against the main enemies in the chapter where he is introduced. Jubilost also gets instant level up if MC is level 6 or higher, so getting Infusion is not an issue. Only imperfect thing about him is the class: Grenadier gets Precise Bomb for free and that results in one extra discovery comparing to vanilla Alchemist.

Ranger.. alright I'll admit that the pet is good, and that the spells are useful. But the rest pales in comparison to other class features

Pet alone is strong enough to help him outperform any pure Fighter, Paladin, Monk or Barbarian (not Mad Dog). Slayer is stronger, but was added in the game later. Multi-classing muddles the values, but 3 Sacred Huntmaster + Ranger (2-hander, Teamwork feats) always been my best attempt to "fix" Amiri in unmodded runs.

No, I'm sorry, your tank did not 'start to fall flat on their face' just because you were lacking that extra 6 HP.

Completing the prologue on Unfair isn't decided by whether or not you took Toughness, that's absurd.

Precise Bombs is nice if you're doing a bomb build but if you planned on optimizing any other way then you're stuck with a relatively poor discovery. Acid Bomb is simply not necessary, whereas Infusion is almost game-breaking. Saying it's not an issue because you can pick it up later ignores the fact that most bomb builds would be going for Cognatogen for increased DC, but you can't take both Cognatogen and Infusion, and at levels 8 and 10 you should be going for Fast Bombs and Force Bombs. So that Acid Bomb discovery is a poor choice. Trolls are not so ubiquitous that you simply have to have acid damage bombs or you'll get destroyed.

No, Smilodon is enough, but Paladins and Monks have other benefits, and Barbarian is just a shit class. And the Smilodon is just an overpowered pet, I mean if you take 6 pet classes all with Smilodons you should be able to steamroll the game blindfolded, Unfair or not. But regardless I'll admit I was too harsh on Ranger, it's not that bad due to the pet, upon reflection. I just hate having features that only work against certain enemies.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Completing the prologue on Unfair isn't decided by whether or not you took Toughness, that's absurd.
Oi Yosharian create a character and attempt to go through the prologue area on unfair, and tell me the results. To make it even more fun attempt it on iron man. The reason being so that you don't reload or save scum. So that you accept the rolls.

I can tell you this, there is two stats that matter, AC and Hit Points. Once an enemy goes through your AC they are going to hit you. Damage varies depending if its a sneak attack or critical attack. If they do hit, you ARE going to regret having a squishy character. Both constitution and toughness facilitates your character to survive an attack that would have otherwise put them out of commission.

 

[Daidre]

No, I'm sorry, your tank did not 'start to fall flat on their face' just because you were lacking that extra 6 HP.

She was missing ~15 (45 > 30 after respec), since I went for "Fighter needs 19 STR to be functional!" meme with 14 CON.

Precise Bombs is nice if you're doing a bomb build but if you planned on optimizing any other way then you're stuck with a relatively poor discovery.

What the hell would you build pure Alchemist for if not(!) the BOMBS?! (Sorry, emotions).

No, Smilodon is enough, but Paladins and Monks have other benefits, and Barbarian is just a shit class. And the Smilodon is just an overpowered pet, I mean if you take 6 pet classes all with Smilodons you should be able to steamroll the game blindfolded, Unfair or not. But regardless I'll admit I was too harsh on Ranger, it's not that bad due to the pet, upon reflection. I just hate having features that only work against certain enemies.

I also played with Dogs/Wolfs and Leopards. Doggies has their bite treated as 2-handed weapon, so they get better Power Attack and 1.5 STR (3 attacks with iteratives on max level) and small kitties grow faster (lvl 4) and outperform Smildons at lvl < 6 with raw stats, they have higher AC and Attack.
All three get auto-trip that rocks up to Challenging and ok-to-good on higher difficulties, when backed up by shared teamwork feats.
Edit: I even played with Bears because I love Bears almost as much as I love Cats.