Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Pink Eye]

I thought it was because the two are standard actions.

 

[Yosharian]

I thought it was because the two are standard actions.

Talking about cleaving finish, not cleave

 

[Desiderius]

It's illegal cos the cleave attack is also a vital strike. At least, that's how I remember Hap explaining it

Ah, that doesn't come up much because if you've got another mob in range you just use Cleave anyway, at least until you've got Greater Vital Strike. Even there usually you're Great Cleaving a group or Vital Striking a lone boss.

 

[Haplo]

It's illegal cos the cleave attack is also a vital strike. At least, that's how I remember Hap explaining it

You have a point, Yosh.

But yeah, it doesn't come about that much. You often need to setup it a bit (soften the mobs first, be in the center). And sacrifices need to be made to include both GVS and Cleaving Finish.

Like Desiderius wrote, Vital Striking alone is more easily included in a regular build - but comes online earliest around level 11, when you qualify for Improved Vital Strike (regular Vital Strike is delayed anyway, as you get the ability to qualify for BAB threshold feats with SS levels a bit later).
In practice - yeah you want a solid two-hander and large dice to use use it, so in case of bastard swords, probably starting with Ovinrbaane in Act IV. Unless you go for greataxes from the start (which would significantly reduce a Sword Saint's flexibility, but would work fine for other classes with a Vital Strike / Cleaving fetish).

 

[Haplo]

Bottom line for PA is that the best STR-based melee builds (Haplo Vital Striker/AoO/Cleaver and Smilodon Pouncer) don't even care about iteratives.

Do you really think the Vital Strike Saint build is better than Haplo's regular Str-based Saint build throughout the game or only at the end once he gets an oversized/reach weapon, Improved Cleaving Finish, etc? While it certainly has some advantages, I hate missing with my single attack at early levels.

Yeah, its basically the same build, only picks some extra feats...

Most of the time before getting all abilities and a bigass weapon, you're better off full-attacking when engaged. Thing is I play with the turn based mod and after movement you cannot full-attack. And as melee you need to move quite a bit.
So a Vital Strike is a much more attractive option then a single standard attack (though Pounce would be even better in most cases, but not everyone has access to that).

Regarding missing, you have Arcane Accuracy and Lesser Quicken Rod TrueStrikes to almost ensure that you don't.

 

[Pink Eye]

Ha! Anon WAS right! If you switch out the golden toad with a similar item that weighs the same, the nearby frogs won't attack you.
See:

No aggression!

 

[mediocrepoet]

No aggression!

No XPs!

 

[NJClaw]

Haplo Desiderius, do you have any Ranger Vital Strike/Improved Cleaving Finish build that I can take as a reference? Improved Cleaving Finish sounds cool, but man that's a lot of feats...

 

[Yosharian]

Found some interesting mechanics tonight.

So I was testing Martyr's Blade which has Holy, Axiomatic and Vicious. Noticed that Vicious adds a separate instance of damage. So do my Alkali Gloves.

Holy and Axiomatic (and Bane, which I tested later) add their damage to every instance.

This applies to other things such as Ruin's bonus force damage, too.

So if you get Martyr and add Bane to it (easily done with a Magus or Inquisitor) and equip the gloves, you get:

1. Vicious + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane
2. Main damage die + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane
3. Acid 1d6 + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane

Fucking insane.

More detail:

Vicious: adds a new instance of damage as 'magic' damage. Doesn't appear to add elemental damage. Working correctly.
Longshank Bane: adding 2d6 force damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)
Holy: adding 2d6 holy damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)
Axiomatic: adding 2d6 holy damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)

So the key issue here is that Bane and the Alignment damage effects are adding to all instances in an attack instead of only adding to the main hand (which elemental damage bonuses do correctly).

Edit: more tests, it appears the following weapons also have this 'extra instance' thing that the Vicious enchantment, Alkali gloves, and Ruin have:

- Remnant: extra 2d6 damage vs evil
- Arcane Enforcer: extra 1d6 vs anything (!)
- Blade of the Merciful: extra 2d6 fire vs non-Good

All these of these items get Holy, Axiomatic and Bane added to their extra 'instance' of damage that they do on-hit.

Just for shits and giggles I added all three to Arcane Enforcer and Blade of the Merciful then dual-wielded them with Professor Pain (10 APR: 5 main hand, 3 off-hand, 1 bite, 1 gore)

Results: 10k damage dealt in 49 seconds.

 

[Desiderius]

Haplo Desiderius, do you have any Ranger Vital Strike/Improved Cleaving Finish build that I can take as a reference? Improved Cleaving Finish sounds cool, but man that's a lot of feats...

If you don't have iteratives you don't need Shatter. That's why I kept talking about using best available two-hander.

Use your Combat Style on Cleave line then get Vital Strikes late.

 

[NJClaw]

Found some interesting mechanics tonight.

So I was testing Martyr's Blade which has Holy, Axiomatic and Vicious. Noticed that Vicious adds a separate instance of damage. So do my Alkali Gloves.

Holy and Axiomatic (and Bane, which I tested later) add their damage to every instance.

This applies to other things such as Ruin's bonus force damage, too.

So if you get Martyr and add Bane to it (easily done with a Magus or Inquisitor) and equip the gloves, you get:

1. Vicious + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane
2. Main damage die + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane
3. Acid 1d6 + Holy + Axiomatic + Bane

Fucking insane.

More detail:

Vicious: adds a new instance of damage as 'magic' damage. Doesn't appear to add elemental damage. Working correctly.
Longshank Bane: adding 2d6 force damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)
Holy: adding 2d6 holy damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)
Axiomatic: adding 2d6 holy damage and it's adding to other instances (every single one)

So the key issue here is that Bane and the Alignment damage effects are adding to all instances in an attack instead of only adding to the main hand (which elemental damage bonuses do correctly).

Yes, it's easy to see that with a Paladin: if you apply your Holy and Axiomatic Divine Weapon bonds, you see the damage applied to every damage instance (with Vicious weapons or things like Ruin). With Paladins it's even more absurd because Smite Evil gets the same treatment (but it doesn't work with the gloves).

 

[Desiderius]

Just tried it. You've got exactly enough feats to get everything you need on Amiri Booter Barb (10/10) using Combat Style Two-Handed. Can even fit in Dreadful at Booter 10 with no Focus, Shatter, or Display. Even get Pounce at lvl 20.

Obv with Fighter can do whatever you want.

Even Harrim/Tristian can go Cleric 16/Fighter 4 and get Greater Vital + Frightful late.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, it's easy to see that with a Paladin: if you apply your Holy and Axiomatic Divine Weapon bonds, you see the damage applied to every damage instance (with Vicious weapons or things like Ruin). With Paladins it's even more absurd because Smite Evil gets the same treatment (but it doesn't work with the gloves).

Guess that explains why my Hospitaler MC kept getting so unexpectedly strong with every level while everyone at the Codex was insisting that Paladin suxxors.

 

[NJClaw]

Yes, it's easy to see that with a Paladin: if you apply your Holy and Axiomatic Divine Weapon bonds, you see the damage applied to every damage instance (with Vicious weapons or things like Ruin). With Paladins it's even more absurd because Smite Evil gets the same treatment (but it doesn't work with the gloves).

Guess that explains why my Hospitaler MC kept getting so unexpectedly strong with every level while everyone at the Codex was insisting that Paladin suxxors.

Even a journalist would be able to finish the game with a Paladin,

 

[Desiderius]

Even a journalist would be able to finish the game with a Paladin,

Even a (hypothetical, Infinitron excepted) good journalist ain't got that kind of time.

 

[Pink Eye]

You don't seem to like my curses! Maybe you'll like my jokes better?!

The time for laughter has passed! Now is the hour of hunting! And chaos!

 

[Desiderius]

The Hidden Feats at the heart of Haplo's ridonkulous numbers are Perfect Strike and Perfect Crit, Sword Saint exclusives. He'll have 2.5x whatever anyone else can put together.

 

[Pink Eye]

Don't try what I did in the video, on Unfair, by the way. It would be suicide. I only managed to pull it off on Hard due to tens of hours of preparation, and cheese.

 

[Pink Eye]

Unbuffed character sheet for the curious:

 

[LannTheStupid]

Don't try what I did in the video, on Unfair, by the way. It would be suicide. I only managed to pull it off on Hard due to tens of hours of preparation, and cheese.

So the whole deed is hinging on your ability to take one critical hit and not die? Which is impossible on Unfair?

 

[Pink Eye]

Don't try what I did in the video, on Unfair, by the way. It would be suicide. I only managed to pull it off on Hard due to tens of hours of preparation, and cheese.

So the whole deed is hinging on your ability to take one critical hit and not die? Which is impossible on Unfair?

No. AoOs are harder to run away from on Unfair. Also critical hits don't do as much damage on Hard.

 

[LannTheStupid]

AoOs are harder to run away from on Unfair.

How? All Unfair adds to Hard is double damage received, doesn't it?

 

[Pink Eye]

AoOs are harder to run away from on Unfair.

How? All Unfair adds to Hard is double damage received, doesn't it?

Unfair also boosts the stats of enemies. Which means, they hit harder, and can take more hits.

 

[mediocrepoet]

AoOs are harder to run away from on Unfair.

How? All Unfair adds to Hard is double damage received, doesn't it?

Higher enemy stats + double damage.

Edit: too slow.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Unfair also boosts the stats of enemies. Which means, they hit harder, and can take more hits.

Hm, I want to test this. And not, not like one "tester" here - I will just write down inspection data on Hard and Unfair.

Thank you for the information.