Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[NJClaw]

I'm having some trouble undestanding the source of a d6 of divine damage I'm dealing. It's the third damage instance in the picture below, the one that has that little light-blue swirl next to the damage total:

Spoiler

All the buffs I use are here, but this particular time I have even less active effects, none of which should add 1d6 of divine damage. I also don't have any particular item that adds divine damage, this is my equipment: Hat of Mental Perfection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Shaman's Cloack, Protector's Robe, Ring of Circumstances, Daring Duelist, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Physical Perfection, Manticore Skin Boots, Star's Soldier Gauntlets.

I'm completely lost, I cant' understand where that divine dice comes from. Haplo, do you have any idea?

Hmm, can't say I know, NJClaw.
I had that icon (and similar damage instance) also, but I THOUGHT it was coming from River Fox Memento amulet. Which you haven't listed.

I'm going crazy, you were my last hope. I'm going to reload previous saves until that symbol stops appearing to try to spot the differences, but I'm starting to think this might be bigger than me, bigger than us. Maybe my character caught Coronavirus and that's some sort of divine infection damage. But that would be a bug, she is a Paladin, she should be immune to all diseases.

 

[Yosharian]

Never mind never mind I misread the logs, bahaha.

 

[Pink Eye]

lol

 

[Yosharian]

I ran some more tests tonight and Vanquisher is just nuts. Just about keeping pace with the best TWF setups and that's against no DR, if I introduce DR it'll pull ahead easy. Even with 10D6 Sneak dice, Vanquisher is still the best option.

And this is with 4 feats spent on TWF

Oh and I was trying out the Star Soldier's Gauntlet which is the item that you get when you collect all the pieces of skymetal, +8 STR and a 4d6 Laser Beam.

Except the Laser Beam for some reason is firing three times per round, AND it adds SNEAK DICE. Ridiculous.

 

[Desiderius]

ImpendingVoice, I understand that TFW no GF is painful, but we're here to help. In one sense I was indeed retarded in that I was shopping for that Fenugreek for the first time at the age of 47.

Don't lose hope, man.

 

[Desiderius]

I ran some more tests tonight and Vanquisher is just nuts. Just about keeping pace with the best TWF setups and that's against no DR, if I introduce DR it'll pull ahead easy. Even with 10D6 Sneak dice, Vanquisher is still the best option.

Even when tested in unrealistically optimal conditions for wimpy high attack Sneaks Haploing Up owns.

Vindicated.

 

[Haplo]

I ran some more tests tonight and Vanquisher is just nuts. Just about keeping pace with the best TWF setups and that's against no DR, if I introduce DR it'll pull ahead easy. Even with 10D6 Sneak dice, Vanquisher is still the best option.

And this is with 4 feats spent on TWF

Oh and I was trying out the Star Soldier's Gauntlet which is the item that you get when you collect all the pieces of skymetal, +8 STR and a 4d6 Laser Beam.

Except the Laser Beam for some reason is firing three times per round, AND it adds SNEAK DICE. Ridiculous.

Didn't really need much testing. Playing the game would tell you that much

 

[Desiderius]

Oh and I was trying out the Star Soldier's Gauntlet which is the item that you get when you collect all the pieces of skymetal, +8 STR and a 4d6 Laser Beam.

Except the Laser Beam for some reason is firing three times per round, AND it adds SNEAK DICE. Ridiculous.

It needs the sneaks to be remotely competitive and it's still pretty weak by the time you get it compared to the alternatives.

At will Scorching Ray that can't be empowered or maximized just isn't that good at level 17 or whatever.

Got to get out of that vacuum, Yosh.

 

[Pink Eye]

I ran some more tests tonight and Vanquisher is just nuts. Just about keeping pace with the best TWF setups and that's against no DR, if I introduce DR it'll pull ahead easy. Even with 10D6 Sneak dice, Vanquisher is still the best option.

And this is with 4 feats spent on TWF

Oh and I was trying out the Star Soldier's Gauntlet which is the item that you get when you collect all the pieces of skymetal, +8 STR and a 4d6 Laser Beam.

Except the Laser Beam for some reason is firing three times per round, AND it adds SNEAK DICE. Ridiculous.

Didn't really need much testing. Playing the game would tell you that much

As the retarded kids from /v/ would say,"Oof, ouch, yikes".

 

[NJClaw]

ArchAngel, I took record of every single PA attack in my first two encounters for the day, here are the results:

1 - smilodon, not charging, with a lot of debuffs (-8) and no round/level buffs (like Haste). Still hits on 2+ on every attack. For low-medium AC enemies, this is always true if the companion is not debuffed.

Spoiler

2 - Full PA, without flanking, hits on 2+ on the last attack.

Spoiler

3 - Next enemy with higher AC, full PA, still hits on 2+.

Spoiler

4 - Next enemy, Wild Hunt Scout. Here I would miss my last attack on a roll of 6-, but it's only because I made a mistake: simply flanking with another character (I could delay for free), I would hit on 3+. I couldn't activate Inspire Courage, because I needed Dirge. That said, even if I missed my last attack on 19-, I would still gain damage from PA: without PA, the last attack would add 71 average damage (reduced by DR, so probably 60 or 50 damage), while PA already added on the other attacks a total of 75 damage (that don't care about DR). Then, again, simply remembering to flank, I am missing the last iterative only on a 2-.

Spoiler

5 - Attack of Opportunity: 15 free damage (30, since it's a critical, but that's not the point). Then, again, even always missing the last iterative we are gaining damage.

Spoiler

6 - Here I would miss on a 4-, but it's another mistake of mine: once again I forgot to flank, but I could also activate Inspire Courage to... drumroll... hit on a 2+.

Spoiler

7 - Here I'm moving (and in this game you move a lot): when you move, PA is free damage (well, until now it always was free damage).

Spoiler

8 - Another AoO: with Outflank/Combat Reflexes and a companion with 9 attacks, 7 of which crit on 15 (the last two are bites and the build could be improved adding trip for even more AoO), I'm getting one or two AoO every other round (when I'm not getting them it's only because the enemy dies before the crit). There's also the Kineticist trip.

Spoiler

9 - Ranged attack in melee: another AoO.

Spoiler

So, in conclusion, if I'm not missing something, on the Paladin PA gained 360 damage and, without mistakes, all the attacks could have missed only on a natural 1.

I stopped there because it's a tiresome endeavor, but this remained true through the entire dungeon. And it's been like that since chapter 3. I play with the TB mod too and I'm obsessed about dice rolls.

 

[ArchAngel]

So you showing us attacks vs Ghosts whose defense is not high AC but that all damage they receive is 1/2. PA was designed for such enemies.
And then you show us attacking enemies with Shatter Defenses whose defense depends on not being flat footed. This is not a case for PA vs normal enemies, this is just Shatter Defenses being too good.

All I can agree with you that Shatter Defenses is very good. Changes nothing for PA. Use PA vs normal enemies without using a specific OP feat like Shatter Defenses.

 

[NJClaw]

So you showing us attacks vs Ghosts whose defense is not high AC but that all damage they receive is 1/2. PA was designed for such enemies.
And then you show us attacking enemies with Shatter Defenses whose defense depends on not being flat footed. This is not a case for PA vs normal enemies, this is just Shatter Defenses being too good.

All I can agree with you that Shatter Defenses is very good. Changes nothing for PA. Use PA vs normal enemies without using a specific OP feat like Shatter Defenses.

So you are saying Power Attack's value has to be determined without taking into account Shatter Defenses? That's nonsense, because all features have to be valued in the context in which you are using them. Saying Power Attack is useless because you need ways to lower your enemies' AC or improve your attack bonus is like saying that Improved Critical is useless because you can use it only with the chosen weapon. Or that Pounce is useless because it's worth it only if you fight in melee and you can't use it with spells. Or that Empower Spell is useless because it does nothing if you aren't a caster. I mean, you get the idea.
Power Attack is strong with Shatter Defenses and Shatter Defenses is a feat you almost always want on your melee guys.

And I'm showing those enemies because I'm in that area at the moment, but it's the same for 95% of the enemies in the game. Usually thanks to Shatter Defenses, but if in a particular situation Shatter Defenses doesn't help than it's the Brilliant Energy divine bond that ignores Armor and Shield bonus to AC, or maybe it's Smite Evil that basically ignores AC, ot maybe it's Glitterdust+Trip/Grease. The system offers far too many ways to improve your attack bonus, to the point that beating enemies' AC is almost always a nonissue.

Power Attack is useless without those features? Maybe, but that's true for ANYTHING in the game.

 

[Desiderius]

So you showing us attacks vs Ghosts whose defense is not high AC but that all damage they receive is 1/2. PA was designed for such enemies.
And then you show us attacking enemies with Shatter Defenses whose defense depends on not being flat footed. This is not a case for PA vs normal enemies, this is just Shatter Defenses being too good.

All I can agree with you that Shatter Defenses is very good. Changes nothing for PA. Use PA vs normal enemies without using a specific OP feat like Shatter Defenses.

Ain't nothing in the game this babe is missing, Shatter Defenses or no.

 

[Desiderius]

And then there was the Haplo tribute:

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Encountered my first bug. Kannerah's (the blue twin) quick bar is bugged. It got wiped and is no longer usable. Lame, as I use her in my primary line-up.

While I am still happy with my AT, I'm finding spell casting lack-luster. I figure I'm about half-way through the game, or just shy of it. I've noticed that I rarely need to use magic, but the things I do want to use magic on have tremendous stat bloat. I feel like, in order to get DCs up to a reliable level, I need to engage in gimmicky niche builds, like an Earth Elemental Sorcerer. I know this will turn around a bit towards end-game when I have access to more levels and a cheese items, but that's not ideal. The weak AI and lack of spell-casting opponents makes the need even lesser. I still blame the stat-bloat, more than anything. I fantasize over a future SCS mod by some altruistic being.

 

[Yosharian]

Encountered my first bug. Kannerah's (the blue twin) quick bar is bugged. It got wiped and is no longer usable. Lame, as I use her in my primary line-up.

While I am still happy with my AT, I'm finding spell casting lack-luster. I figure I'm about half-way through the game, or just shy of it. I've noticed that I rarely need to use magic, but the things I do want to use magic on have tremendous stat bloat. I feel like, in order to get DCs up to a reliable level, I need to engage in gimmicky niche builds, like an Earth Elemental Sorcerer. I know this will turn around a bit towards end-game when I have access to more levels and a cheese items, but that's not ideal. The weak AI and lack of spell-casting opponents makes the need even lesser. I still blame the stat-bloat, more than anything. I fantasize over a future SCS mod by some altruistic being.

That's... odd. Mods?

 

[LannTheStupid]

Due to the fact that the blue twin is called Kalikke, and Kanerah is the red twin - may be you've just mixed up their action bars?

 

[mediocrepoet]

Encountered my first bug. Kannerah's (the blue twin) quick bar is bugged. It got wiped and is no longer usable. Lame, as I use her in my primary line-up.

While I am still happy with my AT, I'm finding spell casting lack-luster. I figure I'm about half-way through the game, or just shy of it. I've noticed that I rarely need to use magic, but the things I do want to use magic on have tremendous stat bloat. I feel like, in order to get DCs up to a reliable level, I need to engage in gimmicky niche builds, like an Earth Elemental Sorcerer. I know this will turn around a bit towards end-game when I have access to more levels and a cheese items, but that's not ideal. The weak AI and lack of spell-casting opponents makes the need even lesser. I still blame the stat-bloat, more than anything. I fantasize over a future SCS mod by some altruistic being.

I've had this happen from time to time. It seemed to do with lagging at the same time the twins were swapping, so try to stay still or not hit things like quick save when swapping. Anyway, if it's the same issue, you can still rebuild their bars from their abilities and items tabs, it's just a pain.

 

[Desiderius]

Bottom line for PA is that the best STR-based melee builds (Haplo Vital Striker/AoO/Cleaver and Smilodon Pouncer) don't even care about iteratives.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Due to the fact that the blue twin is called Kalikke, and Kanerah is the red twin - may be you've just mixed up their action bars?

Just the names. It's the blue one who's bar is bugged. The flame twin works just fine.

I've had this happen from time to time. It seemed to do with lagging at the same time the twins were swapping, so try to stay still or not hit things like quick save when swapping. Anyway, if it's the same issue, you can still rebuild their bars from their abilities and items tabs, it's just a pain.

Not using any mods. Her quick bar is not merely wiped, but un-selectable. I can't reassign them even if I want. Annoying.

 

[amurath]

Bottom line for PA is that the best STR-based melee builds (Haplo Vital Striker/AoO/Cleaver and Smilodon Pouncer) don't even care about iteratives.

Do you really think the Vital Strike Saint build is better than Haplo's regular Str-based Saint build throughout the game or only at the end once he gets an oversized/reach weapon, Improved Cleaving Finish, etc? While it certainly has some advantages, I hate missing with my single attack at early levels.

 

[Yosharian]

Do you really think the Vital Strike Saint build is better than Haplo's regular Str-based Saint build throughout the game or only at the end once he gets an oversized/reach weapon, Improved Cleaving Finish, etc? While it certainly has some advantages, I hate missing with my single attack at early levels.

That's the next thing I'm testing tonight. However, whatever the results are, they have to be balanced against the fact that such a build relies more on exploiting cleaving finish, than it does hitting a single target repeatedly (which isn't really a good simulation of an actual battle anyway)

To put it in plain terms, a vital strike build isn't meant to do good damage to a single target over time, it's meant to smash a target and then cleave (illegally) to another one, and again and again. Still, should be interesting.

 

[Desiderius]

Do you really think the Vital Strike Saint build is better than Haplo's regular Str-based Saint build throughout the game or only at the end once he gets an oversized/reach weapon, Improved Cleaving Finish, etc? While it certainly has some advantages, I hate missing with my single attack at early levels.

That's the next thing I'm testing tonight. However, whatever the results are, they have to be balanced against the fact that such a build relies more on exploiting cleaving finish, than it does hitting a single target repeatedly (which isn't really a good simulation of an actual battle anyway)

To put it in plain terms, a vital strike build isn't meant to do good damage to a single target over time, it's meant to smash a target and then cleave (illegally) to another one, and again and again. Still, should be interesting.

What's illegal about it? You Vital Strike bosses and use Cleave for groups.

Vital Striking is definitely mid to late game since it requires 6/11/16 BAB to even become available. Where I use it is with Freebooter since Vital Strike is now a Standard Action so goes well with Freebooter's Bane (as does Cleave and Charge). You maximize your single swing damage since that's all you're usually getting (also maximizes impact of AoOs).

 

[Desiderius]

Bottom line for PA is that the best STR-based melee builds (Haplo Vital Striker/AoO/Cleaver and Smilodon Pouncer) don't even care about iteratives.

Do you really think the Vital Strike Saint build is better than Haplo's regular Str-based Saint build throughout the game or only at the end once he gets an oversized/reach weapon, Improved Cleaving Finish, etc? While it certainly has some advantages, I hate missing with my single attack at early levels.

It's all the same build.

 

[Yosharian]

It's illegal cos the cleave attack is also a vital strike. At least, that's how I remember Hap explaining it