Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.

I mean, the only reason not to get Power Attack is if you want longer combat encounters to enjoy the game more.

They don't know how to buff and debuff (because they grew up on shitty faceroll games where you don't have to) so their ABs suck and PA fries their iteratives.

 

[NJClaw]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.

I mean, the only reason not to get Power Attack is if you want longer combat encounters to enjoy the game more.

>I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.
Down the rabbit hole you go!

Nice try, but you won't trick me into taking a reddit discussion about videogames seriously. This is the first comment that caught my attention:

All I can suggest is you test your assertion with the facts. The maths do not lie. Those buffs that increase your chance to hit apply without Power Attack as well, your average damage can be better off stacking all those to hit buffs to ensure all your attacks have as high chance to hit as possible

Imagine not being able to understand that, after reaching the threshold where you miss only with a natural 1, every other to hit bonus is useless.

Let me rephrase my previous post:
I don't understand how could anyone with an even basic understanding of the game system argue otherwise.

 

[Pink Eye]

Well the reason why I linked that specific thread was because Ineffect was down in the comments raging a crusade about PA.

 

[Desiderius]

Well the reason why I linked that specific thread was because Ineffect was down in the comments raging a crusade about PA.

Classic InEffect. Here's the real gem:

"Cleaving finish is 2 more feats for 1 attack in a blue moon."

To be fair, Improved Cleaving Finish is where the action is, but you can't get there without CF.

Improved Cleaving Finish is the Surprise Spells of melee. You destroy entire fights.

 

[NJClaw]

Well the reason why I linked that specific thread was because Ineffect was down in the comments raging a crusade about PA.

Classic InEffect. Here's the real gem:

"Cleaving finish is 2 more feats for 1 attack in a blue moon."

I can't understand how you can, at the same time, believe that:
- usually you kill an enemy in a single round;
- you rarely get the Cleaving Finish attack.

The only exception is when enemies are far from one another, but that's the exception, not the norm.
In my recent playthrough I think I got the Cleaving Finish attack almost every single round. But I'm playing with the TB mod, so maybe that's the reason.

 

[Desiderius]

Well the reason why I linked that specific thread was because Ineffect was down in the comments raging a crusade about PA.

Classic InEffect. Here's the real gem:

"Cleaving finish is 2 more feats for 1 attack in a blue moon."

I can't understand how you can, at the same time, believe that:
- usually you kill an enemy in a single round;
- you rarely get the Cleaving Finish attack.

The only exception is when enemies are far from one another, but that's the exception, not the norm.
In my recent playthrough I think I got the Cleaving Finish attack almost every single round. But I'm playing with the TB mod, so maybe that's the reason.

No, it's probably because he doesn't have enough reach to Cleave stuff, but it's also because he whiffs a lot and isn't killing most stuff in a single round. Nauseating all the mobs breeds bad habits.

 

[Desiderius]

Holy fuck, I'm HOT AND STRONG.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It's very difficult to choose between "disgusting" and "exciting" in this particular case. However, I have made up my mind.

Also. it's funny how the DPS tester latches on one issue and ignores the rest. Typical redditor.

 

[ArchAngel]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

 

[NJClaw]

Holy fuck, I'm HOT AND STRONG.

View attachment 12959

I would most definitely fuck me.

But I have a soft spot for pale skin colors, long light blonde hair and skinny fit arms, so it was a bit unfair.

 

[NJClaw]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

After a certain level hitting your last iteratives shouldn't be a problem even with Power Attack.
In my current playthrough I'm at the House at the Edge of Time and I think my full-bab characters haven't missed a single attack (with the exception of natural 1s and concealment effects) since Chapter 3. Medium-bab characters probably sometimes missed on a 2, maybe even a 4 when they weren't buffed.

 

[Parabalus]

Imagine not being able to understand that, after reaching the threshold where you miss only with a natural 1, every other to hit bonus is useless.

That's literally in the post though:

PA works positively only at the extremes: e.g. your chance to hit is only 5% (natural 20), therefore you may as well use PA since it doesn't affect your hit chance but you get more damage. Or at the other end, if your chance to hit is very high (e.g. you always hit except on a 1) then PA becomes free damage.

Well the reason why I linked that specific thread was because Ineffect was down in the comments raging a crusade about PA.

Looks like his making Underrail builds now .

 

[NJClaw]

Imagine not being able to understand that, after reaching the threshold where you miss only with a natural 1, every other to hit bonus is useless.

That's literally in the post though:

PA works positively only at the extremes: e.g. your chance to hit is only 5% (natural 20), therefore you may as well use PA since it doesn't affect your hit chance but you get more damage. Or at the other end, if your chance to hit is very high (e.g. you always hit except on a 1) then PA becomes free damage.

I already violated my rules reading the tl;dr, I'm not gonna sin again reading an entire reddit post about videogames.
I could agree with his conclusions if his premises were right. However, if you are missing your attacks due to the Power Attack penalty, you are doing something wrong. In this game accumulating to-hit bonuses is so easy that beating enemies' AC should never be a problem, especially for full-bab characters.

He says Power Attack is terrible because it works only at the extremes, but in this game reaching the extreme is the norm, even without a sensible optimization. It's like saying that in every soccer team you need at least 5 goalkeepers on the field at all times because 4 of them could get a red card while you no longer have available substitutions. I mean, okay, but it never happens.

 

[Haplo]

Don't agree with "even without a sensible optimization". Without optimization you're almost certainly better of turning PA off VS most enemies.

 

[NJClaw]

Don't agree with "even without a sensible optimization". Without optimization you're almost certainly better of turning PA off VS most enemies.

Probably we need to define what we mean by "sensible optimization". During my first playthrough I didn't have neither a Bard nor a Freebooter and I didn't pick Shatter Defenses on any character, but I was still able to miss only on natural 1s with Amiri, Regongar and two animal companions. Usually, on Challenging, equipping your best items, casting a couple offensive buffs and choosing the right debuff is enough to never have to worry about enemies' AC. To me, this isn't "sensible optimization".

 

[Desiderius]

your last attack will miss most of the time.

Only if you're playing four man Bardless to gimp yourself. Even then:

(a) If you're Cleaving, Vital Striking, Charging, Moving, Natural Attacking, or AoOing then you don't get iteratives anyway.

(b) By the time you do get a Full Attack in STR-based melee should be killing stuff by the second or third hit.

(c) On the rare occasion you do make it to your last iterative, by the time you get endgame weapons you should be landing those regularly too with some rare exceptions like Bokken where you just turn off PA or use a different approach.

PA/Piranha/Deadly Aim are all ways to cash in the high ABs you naturally accumulate from playing well mid to late game for solid chunks of damage that multiply on crits. It makes no sense to gimp your whole build to hit marginally more often on attacks that rarely even occur.

Incidentally, the above is also why Yosh's tests are silly.

 

[Desiderius]

After a certain level hitting your last iteratives shouldn't be a problem even with Power Attack.

I was an avid critic of the - AB feats for the first 1,000 or so hours I was playing the game. Then thanks to Hap I started getting less iteratives and my thinking changed.

 

[ArchAngel]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

After a certain level hitting your last iteratives shouldn't be a problem even with Power Attack.
In my current playthrough I'm at the House at the Edge of Time and I think my full-bab characters haven't missed a single attack (with the exception of natural 1s and concealment effects) since Chapter 3. Medium-bab characters probably sometimes missed on a 2, maybe even a 4 when they weren't buffed.

I am pretty sure you are not following your character attack rolls precisely enough. Since I play with TB mod I notice all my hits and misses and melee guys miss with better attacks than last one as well. Not very often but often enough to be noticeable.

 

[Desiderius]

You see them in the Combat Log just fine on RTwP. His AB is just ten higher than yours.

No more complicated than that.

 

[ArchAngel]

You see them in the Combat Log just fine on RTwP. His AB is just ten higher than yours.

No more complicated than that.

You do but in RtwP combat happens so fast nobody really bothers unless you get a string of misses. I know when I played it RtwP I cared much less about each attack than I do with TB.

 

[Desiderius]

I have enough autopauses set (plus I watch Combat Log like I'm playing a text-based MUD) that I'm aware of it. I've usually not picked up the PA-style feats until I see regular hits there, but last playthrough I got it early and just kept it on for Cleavebooter Amiri and Val's Smilodon all the time since iteratives weren't a thing.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I know when I played it RtwP I cared much less about each attack than I do with TB.

As I was saying for ages: most Westerners fail at the functional literacy test that is Kingmaker.

 

[Yosharian]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

Well, give me an AC value to test and I can prove it. If I'm only missing end game monsters on a 1, 2 or 3, what you're saying doesn't really apply. Shatter Defenses is amazingly powerful.

Wild Hunt mobs have pretty pitiful AC values, for end-game anyway, and once you apply Shatter Defenses to them then it's even worse, and even my medium BAB Alchemist is going to miss only on a 1.

 

[Yosharian]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

After a certain level hitting your last iteratives shouldn't be a problem even with Power Attack.
In my current playthrough I'm at the House at the Edge of Time and I think my full-bab characters haven't missed a single attack (with the exception of natural 1s and concealment effects) since Chapter 3. Medium-bab characters probably sometimes missed on a 2, maybe even a 4 when they weren't buffed.

Right that's what I'm saying. I need to accurately simulate an endgame monster then run the test again and see how that affects PA's stats.

 

[ArchAngel]

Guys PA is not always best option. Using PA at high levels means your last attack will miss most of the time meaning that you actually get one less attack. Now if that missed attack is 1d8+10 and with power attack you get +15 to all other attacks it does not matter but if your normal attack is 4d8+30 you probably don't want to use PA. Not to mention that means less chance of critical hits and activating feats connected with that.

Well, give me an AC value to test and I can prove it. If I'm only missing end game monsters on a 1, 2 or 3, what you're saying doesn't really apply. Shatter Defenses is amazingly powerful.

Wild Hunt mobs have pretty pitiful AC values, for end-game anyway, and once you apply Shatter Defenses to them then it's even worse, and even my medium BAB Alchemist is going to miss only on a 1.

That is effect of Shatter Defenses then, not PA. I for one don't use Shatter Defenses or bother with trying to fear everyone. I don't bother with PA as well because game is easy enough you don't need to. You CC enemies that are hard with spells anyways.