Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Yosharian]

These tests are a little crude right now. I want to try estimating, say, a Wild Hunt unit's statistics to make it more realistic. But this was 4am last night when I couldn't sleep, so it was fairly rudimentary

 

[Yosharian]

Honestly I've got to say I found it interesting how little difference each weapon made, I was expecting a much bigger swing for the 15-20 crit weapons vs the 19-20

Ofc there are on-crit effects to consider, it's not all about damage, but still

 

[mediocrepoet]

Honestly I've got to say I found it interesting how little difference each weapon made, I was expecting a much bigger swing for the 15-20 crit weapons vs the 19-20

Ofc there are on-crit effects to consider, it's not all about damage, but still

I would think that because your test had so many hit points, all the quirks around damage (such as crit range) got normalized out. The high crit range weapons have low base damages, and vice versa, so their expected average damage should be similar. Since basically every swing hits for your test, you don't have results where results might skew such as every hit being a threat for the wide crit range weapons, backed up by an auto-confirm ability, so basically every hit is a crit for the wide crit range weapons but not for narrow crit range weapons.

As a result, your results are basically showing whether overall and with everything else being equal, the end game weapons are more or less balanced with one another. The results appear to be yes, if everything except a 1 hits, weapons are generally just a dress up option. The nuances will come in when monsters start only taking a few hits leading to anecdotal differences in spike damage, or from the interactions of actual ACs and abilities where you can have every hit is a crit threat / confirmed crit which should lead to a wider difference (e.g. every hit is a crit where you can hit on 15 will probably skew things towards the wider crit range weapons, whereas every hit is a crit where you can only hit on 20 will skew things towards the high crit multiplier weapons).

 

[Pink Eye]

Honestly I've got to say I found it interesting how little difference each weapon made, I was expecting a much bigger swing for the 15-20 crit weapons vs the 19-20

Ofc there are on-crit effects to consider, it's not all about damage, but still

Do you mind testing with unarmed monk?

 

[Yosharian]

Honestly I've got to say I found it interesting how little difference each weapon made, I was expecting a much bigger swing for the 15-20 crit weapons vs the 19-20

Ofc there are on-crit effects to consider, it's not all about damage, but still

Do you mind testing with unarmed monk?

Do you have a particular build? I don't have any pure monk builds

 

[mediocrepoet]

I also forgot to mention the obvious: crit immune mobs will also skew results in favour of high base damage weapons which is where the oversized bastard swords and vanquisher will really shine and results will clearly overshadow most other options, though the difference between something like those and allslayer might be interesting, depending on how much DR the target has and whether it can be mitigated by things like the fighter's piercing strike.

I guess this is just a really long winded way of saying that the best simulation is either by modelling different creatures such as autumn golems, wild hunt monarchs, etc. and particular builds such as penetrating strike fighter, or just playing the game and keeping a save near an interesting fight towards the end of the game when you have all of the items in question and using that to test with respecing, like Desiderius seems to do.

 

[Yosharian]

I hate to say this, because it's stupidly obvious, but the test I did wasn't intended to replicate things like real monster DR or AC. Obviously I will add those elements in later, and I'm fully aware that lacking them could skew results. Because it's fucking obvious.

 

[Pink Eye]

Honestly I've got to say I found it interesting how little difference each weapon made, I was expecting a much bigger swing for the 15-20 crit weapons vs the 19-20

Ofc there are on-crit effects to consider, it's not all about damage, but still

Do you mind testing with unarmed monk?

Do you have a particular build? I don't have any pure monk builds

My Dragon Style build. https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/monks-a-guide-to-punching.131604/page-4#post-6618312
But go 3 vivi/ 2 archeologist/ 4 DD/ 11 Scaled Fist.

 

[Pink Eye]

I also forgot to mention the obvious: crit immune mobs will also skew results in favour of high base damage weapons which is where the oversized bastard swords and vanquisher will really shine and results will clearly overshadow most other options, though the difference between something like those and allslayer might be interesting, depending on how much DR the target has and whether it can be mitigated by things like the fighter's piercing strike.

I guess this is just a really long winded way of saying that the best simulation is either by modelling different creatures such as autumn golems, wild hunt monarchs, etc. and particular builds such as penetrating strike fighter, or just playing the game and keeping a save near an interesting fight towards the end of the game when you have all of the items in question and using that to test with respecing, like Desiderius seems to do.

Or you can do what I do. Run the build through the DLC dungeon. And test against different groups of enemies. But it will take 10-30 hours though.

 

[Yosharian]

Also as I said earlier, please suggest a typical AC.

Tested Redeemer/Allslayer against a HATEOT Wild Hunt Monarch with 10000 HP. 1 minute 55 seconds to kill.

Faterender: 2:34! Seems Allslayer has a reasonably significant effect against the Monarch's DR.

Vanquisher was about 2 minutes. This test is harder cos the Monarch keeps fucking up my character.

 

[Cael]

10000 hp in 115 seconds.

Bwahahahahahahaha!

And these same cretins cry about 3.5's numbers bloat.

Looks like pukemaker has gone JRPG.

 

[Desiderius]

Just for you, Cael (and NJ), here's some hot Faterender action:

Stats just after first crit here:

2 of that ten are bites. You'll be seeing why I'm not big on bites. So Brilliant Inspiration from Linz plus Improved Crit seems to have solved some of the narrow crit range problems:

You can also see why I'm not a big fan of Sneaks necessarily

Likewise the extra damage from a Faterend also gets caught up in DR

Fourth crit in one fight.

And the fifth. Not bad for 20(x3) weapon.

 

[Desiderius]

Couple other notes:

Ekun was on Neutralizer Bow so he wouldn't kill things too fast. Pretty solid action economy for Jub or a caster when not casting.

First time I've noticed this effect.

Not sure if that True Seeing is cutting through Mirror Images but I'm not taking any chances. Caster level 23 is pretty solid to Dispel anything in the game.

 

[Desiderius]

So ten attacks at around 200 per is 2,000 per round and a round is six seconds, so that would be ~30 seconds to get to your 10k.

 

[LannTheStupid]

How do you measure time in an RTwP game and why do you think it is consistent between tries?

 

[Desiderius]

How do you measure time in an RTwP game and why do you think it is consistent between tries?

It's not. I think Yosh is on a fool's errand. This isn't some braindead MMO. And as Hap said the mobs die too fast no matter what you use. Why optimize performance on 10k mobs which don't exist?

 

[Pink Eye]

>mobs die too fast no matter what you use.
That's actually something that me and Dixon talked about on Steam. All of the stat bonuses, and mobs can still die within seconds. Doesn't feel all that satisfying when you can one shot enemies.

 

[Yosharian]

1) I'm simply measuring damage over time. I used my phone's stopwatch.

2) The hp of the target means that each test is more consistent. Over time, swing crits average out. I'd test 100k HP if I had the time. The hp number isn't to replicate real game monsters. I'm surprised I have to spell this out.

3) the goal of the test is simply to establish DPS values for the weapons. It is NOT meant to establish which is the BEST weapon. That requires analysis of both DPS values AND other aspects. Eg. Redeemer allows you to cast Transformation. I'm simply trying to shed light on the actual DPS values of each weapon since up to now we've only been estimating how much damage each weapon can do.

It makes complete sense that Faterender's DPS against a unit with DR would be dramatically reduced, while Vanquisher is less affected. My test illustrated that. Sucks that the additional hit doesn't apply Sneak Attack damage, it is would be a lot stronger if it did.

Also, bite stacking is fucking lame.

 

[Pink Eye]

Do unarmed next, please.

 

[Yosharian]

Do unarmed next!

You didn't really post a detailed build

 

[Desiderius]

Your model only includes maybe a tenth of the relevant variables, and you're measuring something meaningless. I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

The bite stacking was a joke. That build will never get to the bites.

It's comical that your takeaway from that test is that Faterender's damage is dramatically reduced by DR. It's reduced by 5% at most. It's destroying everything because it's a two-handed weapon that gets 8 attacks per round, not that you need 8 in the first place unless you're doing your pointless test.

 

[Pink Eye]

Build:

Spoiler

Race: Human
Class: 11 Scaled Fist/ 1 Sorcerer/ 4 Dragon Disciple/ 4 Vivisectionist
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Stats:
STR 19
DEX 14
CON 11
INT 7
WIS 10
CHA 16

Class/Feat Progression:
Level 1 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Power Attack, Dragon Style, Deflect Arrow - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception(Or Persuasion. Either and or can work. I suggest persuasion for the main game.)
Level 2 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Combat Reflexes - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 3 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Improved Initiative - Draconic Heritage: Black Dragon(You can pick anyone you want. I picked black because it fits with the lawful evil theme) - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 4 + 1 STR - Alchemist(Vivisectionist) - Spells: For now you can't cast any spells, not until you get gear that can raise INT. So, just pick whichever spell meets your fancy. Recommendations: Enlarge, Shield, True Strike, Firebelly, Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 5 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Dragon Ferocity - KI Power: Barkskin - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception

Level 6 - Alchemist(Vivisectionist) - Feats: Weapon Focus(Unarmed) - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 7 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Outflank - Style Strike: Hammerblow - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 8 + 1 STR - Alchemist(Vivisectionist) - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 9 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Dodge - KI Power: True Strike - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 10 - Alchemist(Vivisectionist) - Feats: Improved Critical(Unarmed) - Spells: Recommended: Blur, False Life - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception

Level 11 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Hammer the Gap - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 12 + 1 STR - Scaled Fist - KI Powers: Abundant Step - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 13 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Precise Strike(Make sure other team mates have this feat.) - Style Strike: Shattering Punch - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 14 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Blind Fight - KI Power: Restoration - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception
Level 15 - Scaled Fist - Feats: Critical Focus - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception

Level 16 + 1 STR - Sorcerer - Draconic Bloodline: Black - Sorcerer Bonus Feat: It really doesn't matter what you pick here. The entire reason we're dipping into sorcerer, is so we can qualify for DD in order to get +4 to STR - Spells: Doesn't matter what you pick - Skills: Mobility, Knowledge Arcana, Perception(If you only have two points, go for whichever skill meets your fancy. I still suggest pumping perception or persuasion up though.)
Level 17 - Dragon Disciple - Feats: Iron Will - Skills: Mobility, Perception
Level 18 - Dragon Disciple - Feats: Toughness - Skills: Mobility, Perception
Level 19 - Dragon Disciple - Feats: Shake it Off(Make sure other companions have this too) - Skills: Mobility, Perception
Level 20 + 1 STR - Dragon Disciple - Recommended spells: Blur - Skills: Mobility, Perception

Gear:
>Enforcer's Robe
>Amulet of Mighty Fists + 5
>Belt of physical perfection + 8

 

[Yosharian]

Really, Dragon Disciple? That's what you want me to test?

Can we get serious, haha

 

[Pink Eye]

What! I am serious! I am! I am serious Pink Eye I am!

 

[amurath]

First test is done

tested using Professor Pain, 10000HP enemy, Shaken to induce Sneak Attacks, only miss on a Critical Miss, all relevant buffs active

Faterender
1:36
Redeemer/Allslayer
1:36
Vanquisher
1:46
Vanquisher/PA no Sneak dice
2:25
Redeemer/Redeemer
1:21
Blinding Light/Blinding Light
1:34
Graveyard of Giants
1:57
Graveyard of Giants/PA no Sneak dice
2:46

Interesting how Faterender and Redeemer/Allslayer are so closely matched.

Would you care to test the Serpent Prince Fauchard or Lion's Claw Falcata? I wonder if either is better than Vanquisher. Also, what PC build and buffs did you use?