Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Yosharian]

Yes I can do some more tests later, watching a movie with my gf right now. The build is called Professor Pain and it's on my Steam page, linked in my sig.

Some observations:

1) Power Attack doesn't add reduced damage to off-hand weapons like it should.

This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

This means that Power Attack is more valuable to a TWF build than it would be normally. Need to test this some more.

2) An Orc Double Axe isn't considered a 'two-handed weapon' by the Power Attack feat. So you don't get the extra Power Attack damage as if you were wielding a 2H weapon. It also isn't treated as a 2H weapon from the perspective of your base STR modifier, either.

3) The Wild Hunt mobs don't reduce Sneak Attack damage per se, they reduce your total damage. Irrelevant whether it's your Sneak Attack damage or your base damage that's getting reduced. The damage is simply subtracted from either or. So Sneak dice aren't undesirable versus these targets. (though they might be vs others)

 

[LannTheStupid]

I fail to understand the concept of "Damage Per Second" for a game with pause. You what, walk to the mob and start autohitting him? And what does the mob do? Just stays there and soaks up damage?

Also, crits are immanent part of the D20 system. You cannot model them out if you want your tests to be relevant for Pathfinder.

P.S.: Just capture your screen with one of your experiments and post the video somewhere. I think it will explain everything.

 

[NJClaw]

Holy fuck, I'm HOT AND STRONG.

So ten attacks at around 200 per is 2,000 per round and a round is six seconds, so that would be ~30 seconds to get to your 10k.

 

[Haplo]

First test is done

tested using Professor Pain, 10000HP enemy, Shaken to induce Sneak Attacks, only miss on a Critical Miss, all relevant buffs active

Faterender
1:36
Redeemer/Allslayer
1:36
Vanquisher
1:46
Vanquisher/PA no Sneak dice
2:25
Redeemer/Redeemer
1:21
Blinding Light/Blinding Light
1:34
Graveyard of Giants
1:57
Graveyard of Giants/PA no Sneak dice
2:46

Interesting how Faterender and Redeemer/Allslayer are so closely matched.

Would you care to test the Serpent Prince Fauchard or Lion's Claw Falcata? I wonder if either is better than Vanquisher. Also, what PC build and buffs did you use?

There is no possibility of either of these weapons to be stronger then Vanquisher. Except maybe with more attacks if you dual wield the Lions Claw.

Lions Claw is very good for Sword Saints and Serpent Prince offers safety /superior Cleaving range /AoO range though.

 

[Yosharian]

Where you got the idea that I'm 'modelling out' crits is beyond me

 

[NJClaw]

Desiderius I'm trying to deal as much damage as possible to the spawn in a single round, but I'm at a dead end. I buffed a bit more than before and now I'm at 846 damage from a full attack:

Spoiler

I can hope for the lucky crit (but that's very unlikely even with Brilliant Inspiration, because the spawn has heavy fortification) to squeeze around 140 more damage. I can also add Destructive Aura to gain 30 more total damage (35 counting the critical).
These are my current stats and active effects:

Spoiler

The only feat I picked that's relevant to damage is Power Attack, so maybe it's possible to gain something by respeccing.

There has to be a way to take him down in a single round.

 

[NJClaw]

I can get 2 more damage per attack with the Warpainted Skull of Duthica, for a whopping 12 damage (14 counting the lucky crit)... but that's basically begging.

 

[Pink Eye]

NJClaw Use the spell Plague Storm. Apparently it has pathetic fortitude saves. May take a while though.

 

[NJClaw]

NJClaw Use the spell Plague Storm. Apparently it has pathetic fortitude saves. May take a while though.

Never! His skull has to crack under the weight of my wooden stick!

 

[InD_ImaginE]

That's actually something that me and Dixon talked about on Steam. All of the stat bonuses, and mobs can still die within seconds. Doesn't feel all that satisfying when you can one shot enemies.

This is an issue with 3.5/Pathfinder. This why Pathfinder 2e (and I think DnD 5e as well) incredibly streamlined and has mechanics in place to limit number growth on PC.

 

[Yosharian]

I mean, they don't die in seconds if you're stunned or paralyzed or instantly killed from Finger of Death

 

[NJClaw]

I'm having some trouble undestanding the source of a d6 of divine damage I'm dealing. It's the third damage instance in the picture below, the one that has that little light-blue swirl next to the damage total:

Spoiler

All the buffs I use are here, but this particular time I have even less active effects, none of which should add 1d6 of divine damage. I also don't have any particular item that adds divine damage, this is my equipment: Hat of Mental Perfection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Shaman's Cloack, Protector's Robe, Ring of Circumstances, Daring Duelist, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Physical Perfection, Manticore Skin Boots, Star's Soldier Gauntlets.

I'm completely lost, I cant' understand where that divine dice comes from. Haplo, do you have any idea?

 

[Pink Eye]

NJClaw This has nothing to do with your question, but your buffs and items are canceling each other out.
Buffs:
>Good Hope
>Heroism Greater
>Heroic Invocation
All three give moral bonuses.

Items:
>Amulete of Natural Armor
>Manticore Skin Boots
>Bark Skin
All three are giving an enhancement bonus to AC.

Items:
>Star's Soldier Gauntlets
>Belt of Physical Perfection
Both are giving an enhancement to physical stats.

There is a couple more instances. I suggest reviewing your buffing order.

 

[NJClaw]

NJClaw This has nothing to do with your question, but your buffs and items are canceling each other out.
Buffs:
>Good Hope
>Heroism Greater
>Heroic Invocation
All three give moral bonuses.

Items:
>Amulete of Natural Armor
>Manticore Skin Boots
>Bark Skin
All three are giving an enhancement bonus to AC.

Items:
>Star's Soldier Gauntlets
>Belt of Physical Perfection
Both are giving an enhancement to physical stats.

There is a couple more instances. I suggest reviewing your buffing order.

I know, these are the reasons:
Good Hope is there because I have a single Heroic Invocation use, so I cast it only when necessary. I normally have only Good Hope and Heroism Greater up and they don't completely overlap, because Good Hope also boosts damage.

The amulet is there by mistake, it should be Gyronna's Amulet. Manticore Skin Boots is there because of the speed bonus, Bakskin for the natural armor enhancement bonus (it's one point higher than the boots' bonus).

Star's Soldier is there because it gives a +8 to Strength, while the belt is only +6.

I'm familiar with bonus types rules, I've been playing D&D 3.x since 2000. If you found other instances of overlapping buffs I would like to hear them, because it's also possible I'm missing something or I'm using something in the wrong way.

 

[Pink Eye]

I didn't consider that good hope also boosts damage, that's useful. I stop using it when I get either Greater Heroism or Heroic Invocation. Usually Heroic Invocation lasts me a good while. Which is enough time to rush through the dungeon. It and Haste, which lasts about 3+ mins with greater extend rod on the higher levels, are all that my monks need to clear a dungeon on Unfair.

I assumed you had the +8 variant for the belt.

 

[Pink Eye]

Look at that beautiful chokepoint! Hot damn!

 

[Yosharian]

Don't have time to do more tests tonight, but I did compare Redeemer/Allslayer vs +5 Longsword/Shortsword.

Redeemer/Allslayer came in at 1:31 (previous test 1:36). while the standard +5 equipment did the job in 1:40. Really not a significant difference, and makes one wonder if the fuss over these improved critical/critical range weapons is really worth it.

Worth bearing mind in mind that this build has one bite attack and one gore attack in addition to the 4 main hand attacks and 3 off hand attacks. But still, you'd expect to see more of a swing coming from those supposedly powerful enchants.

Makes one wonder whether it mightn't be a better strategy to focus on powerful permanent buffs or other enchants, rather than damage enchants which end up being a little insignificant.

Did another Redeemer/Allslayer, this time with Power Attack. 1:24. Not insignificant improvement, but remains to be seen whether it's worth another -4 to hit.

Lion's Claw/Allslayer, 1:23. With Power Attack. PA seems to consistently improve times by about 5-10 seconds or so.

Last test before I hit the sack, Weasel's Bite and Weasel's Claw, with PA: 1:32. Low base damage of the Kukris hurts it a bit, I guess.

 

[Desiderius]

That's actually something that me and Dixon talked about on Steam. All of the stat bonuses, and mobs can still die within seconds. Doesn't feel all that satisfying when you can one shot enemies.

This is an issue with 3.5/Pathfinder. This why Pathfinder 2e (and I think DnD 5e as well) incredibly streamlined and has mechanics in place to limit number growth on PC.

I mean, at this point I'm breaking the game worse than any min-maxxer. You're not intended to gather literally every item/skill/ability available in the game at once.

It's principally in the interest of countering those who whine about inflated mob stats or whatever. The game's design is aimed squarely at destroying the Tank/Healer/DPS only approach, so if that's all you've got you will find some tough sledding, but there is no reason to restrict oneself to that alone, which is massive incline.

To celebrate that, I'm illustrating everything else that one can bring to bear.

 

[Desiderius]

PA seems to consistently improve times by about 5-10 seconds or so.

At least you've discovered that PA is good in a competent group.

 

[NJClaw]

PA seems to consistently improve times by about 5-10 seconds or so.

At least you've discovered that PA is good in a competent group.

Well, Power Attack has always been a very strong feat in 3.x, mainly because enemies' AC struggle to keep up with characters' attack bonus. In Kingmaker this is even more true, because Power Attack works better than in PnP, since it doesn't take off-hand usage into account.

 

[Pink Eye]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius I'm trying to deal as much damage as possible to the spawn in a single round, but I'm at a dead end. I buffed a bit more than before and now I'm at 846 damage from a full attack:

I can hope for the lucky crit (but that's very unlikely even with Brilliant Inspiration, because the spawn has heavy fortification) to squeeze around 140 more damage. I can also add Destructive Aura to gain 30 more total damage (35 counting the critical).
These are my current stats and active effects:

Spoiler

There has to be a way to take him down in a single round.

Check your inventory. There's probably stuff like Bokken Weapon Oils in there and what not. Scroll of Lead Blades. I was also using Sacred Damage from Touch of Good I think and getting damage from Freebooter's Bane. Unfortunately the spell Rage gets countered by Immunity to Compulsions (as does Inspiring Command from Nobility). If you're respeccing there's probably something you can do with War/Strength domain/sharing judgments/who knows.

Improved Crit Quarterstaff is the only feat I can think of offhand.

 

[Desiderius]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

The InEffect crew are oblivious to most of those ways (to boost AB). He's whiffing against Nauseated mobs. That's why they thought PA sucked. It's only good if you're powering through the penalty (and using Two-handers to get extra damage out of it).

 

[NJClaw]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.

I mean, the only reason not to get Power Attack is if you want longer combat encounters to enjoy the game more.

 

[Pink Eye]

There have been debates here and there about PA. I've always told people it's the best means of increasing damage for martials. There are so many ways to boost attack rolls, but so little ways of increasing damage rolls.

I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.

I mean, the only reason not to get Power Attack is if you want longer combat encounters to enjoy the game more.

>I don't understand how could anyone argue otherwise.
Down the rabbit hole you go!