Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Pink Eye]

>Chaotic Evil: "Glorious! Let me get a front row seat so I can see them suffer. Hah!"
>cruelty for its own sake
This is why CE is so stoopid.

 

[Desiderius]

Owlcat struggles with L in general, likely because in Orthodoxy (as I understand it) there's not much daylight between Good and Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator

>Chaotic Evil: "Glorious! Let me get a front row seat so I can see them suffer. Hah!"
>cruelty for its own sake
This is why CE is so stoopid.

Would that it were. The correlation between intellect and cruelty is likely non-zero.​

 

[Yosharian]

>Chaotic Evil: "Glorious! Let me get a front row seat so I can see them suffer. Hah!"
>cruelty for its own sake
This is why CE is so stoopid.

I mean I picked an obvious one. CE is quite difficult to write well, I think.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Owlcat struggles with L in general, likely because in Orthodoxy (as I understand it) there's not much daylight between Good and Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator

While I can see religion being part of it, To be Lawful or Good is a very old trope. Like this is the Paladin dilemma since like a long time ago. It is a trope used widely in all forms of fiction (conflicting loyalty and being good, usually noble demon/general anti-villain character in all form of fiction).

I find it silly that their religion would make them unable to write something.

The problem IMO, is dividing when a good act is NG or LG. Chaotic is passionate/compulsive. That's not hard. Then what is Lawful? Rigid and cold? If so Lawful-Good will feels out of place a lot of the time.

On discussion several pages ago we were discussing what Lawful means. Valerie, for example, shows a Lawful Dumb tendency usually reserved to bad Paladin role player, that is Law above all. She saw something (Troll) get tortured, flinch at the cruelty, but because she is Lawful she is thinking that it is okay since Barth said that he did it within a legal framework. I don't think anybody except a law student will have this kind of view realistically. But if she is going against torture of sentient (albeit not on par to humanlike races in PfK), that would shift her to be Neutral/Good. Now in this context (Barth torturing sentient troll that begs you to end its suffering), and taking the context that Barth is doing it legally, then what a Lawful Good response be?

I mean I picked an obvious one. CE is quite difficult to write well, I think.

The problem with CE on the other hand is less on the Law-Chaotic axis, but on the Good- Evil axis. In PfK, Reg, for example, is not done in homicidal maniac CE is usually portrayed as. Instead, he is very obsessive regarding his revenge and hatred of slavery. His chaotic evil for all intent and purpose is directed at "revenge at all cost side." He won't complain if you help somebody because he is not evil for the kick of it. Now interpreting this CE into lot of contexts is hard because sometimes there is no "grey" kind of evil present.

 

[Efe]

whats lawful for paladin is chaos to the other side.

 

[Desiderius]

While I can see religion being part of it, To be Lawful or Good is a very old trope. Like this is the Paladin dilemma since like a long time ago. It is a trope used widely in all forms of fiction (conflicting loyalty and being good, usually noble demon/general anti-villain character in all form of fiction).

I find it silly that their religion would make them unable to write something.

What are you talking about? It's highly unlikely that the Owlcat devs are religious at all.

This level of historical ignorance vis-à-vis the role of religion in culture and history shouldn't be possible, yet here we are. That's what I mean by the Commies winning the Cold War. It's made the West actively and enthusiastically ignorant and stupid.

 

[Pink Eye]

Owlcat struggles with L in general, likely because in Orthodoxy (as I understand it) there's not much daylight between Good and Law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator

While I can see religion being part of it, To be Lawful or Good is a very old trope. Like this is the Paladin dilemma since like a long time ago. It is a trope used widely in all forms of fiction (conflicting loyalty and being good, usually noble demon/general anti-villain character in all form of fiction).

I find it silly that their religion would make them unable to write something.

The problem IMO, is dividing when a good act is NG or LG. Chaotic is passionate/compulsive. That's not hard. Then what is Lawful? Rigid and cold? If so Lawful-Good will feels out of place a lot of the time.

On discussion several pages ago we were discussing what Lawful means. Valerie, for example, shows a Lawful Dumb tendency usually reserved to bad Paladin role player, that is Law above all. She saw something (Troll) get tortured, flinch at the cruelty, but because she is Lawful she is thinking that it is okay since Barth said that he did it within a legal framework. I don't think anybody except a law student will have this kind of view realistically. But if she is going against torture of sentient (albeit not on par to humanlike races in PfK), that would shift her to be Neutral/Good. Now in this context (Barth torturing sentient troll that begs you to end its suffering), and taking the context that Barth is doing it legally, then what a Lawful Good response be?

I mean I picked an obvious one. CE is quite difficult to write well, I think.

The problem with CE on the other hand is less on the Law-Chaotic axis, but on the Good- Evil axis. In PfK, Reg, for example, is not done in homicidal maniac CE is usually portrayed as. Instead, he is very obsessive regarding his revenge and hatred of slavery. His chaotic evil for all intent and purpose is directed at "revenge at all cost side." He won't complain if you help somebody because he is not evil for the kick of it. Now interpreting this CE into lot of contexts is hard because sometimes there is no "grey" kind of evil present.

>Then what is Lawful? Rigid and cold?
Lawful acts within a system of values and principle. A lawful good character won't just perform a compulsive deed of kindness. They first have to consider the ramifications of that choices, and whether or not it will conflict with their principles. Then they must further consider the "big picture". For example, while giving money to the poor is just and good, is it really necessary? Wouldn't it be better to help the poor be independent. Be self reliant. Be able. A chaotic good person wouldn't consider the "big picture" they'll just act immediately, then consider the consequences later. While, yes, lawful good, can at times, be "cold". It is still naturally good. A lawful good character won't plot schemes on how they can exploit the tax system, or the poor, for example. They'll instead work within the system without abusing it for their own good. As principles and ethics always go first. Where else, a lawful evil person wouldn't care about ethics. They only care about,"Okay, how would this benefit ME. What opportunity does this give ME that I can use to MY advantage". A lawful neutral is more in the middle. I don't think a lawful neutral will care about ways to exploit the system, work with the corrupted. Nor will they even care about ethics or some such. They're just in the middle. Doing their own thing.

Of course, this is just my interpretation of the debate. And as all things, I may be wrong.

>She saw something (Troll) get tortured, flinch at the cruelty, but because she is Lawful she is thinking that it is okay since Barth said that he did it within a legal framework.
Valerie was okay with the torture because the results may directly benefit the barony. Which will inadvertently benefit the ruler. It being within a legal framework was just a means to an end. And even if she did disagree to the experiments, it is the ruler that sets the law. So her opinion is forfeit in the grand scheme of things. Regardless, what's a troll, when countless were responsible for wrecking havoc and chaos to both your subjects and its lands.

 

[Desiderius]

what a Lawful Good response be?

The Six Antitheses

 

[LannTheStupid]

>>cruelty for its own sake
>This is why CE is so stoopid.
This is why CE is the best. I hate when I have to pick "Lawful Neutral" just to keep a dwarven smith working for me.
Come to think of it: if he does not give me the masterpiece in this playthrough I will hang him in the next.

 

[Pink Eye]

>Come to think of it: if he does not give me the masterpiece in this playthrough I will hang him in the next.
Edgy but based, lol.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

what a Lawful Good response be?

The Six Antitheses

The problem, once again, is "what is Lawful?"

A monk lawfulness supposedly is not based on external law but on self-discipline. It is not bound by religion/system. Following Six Anthitheses is the "Good" part. It will be Lawful Good only if you are, say, RP ing a Paladin (whose Law are coded not to general Law but its god's).

For a bureaucratic knight like Val, if we are working on rigid Lawful - Chaotic & Good-Evil axis, in a country where torture of lesser sentient being (Troll) is lawful, then it becomes impossible to be Lawful Good, no? At least on this troll example.

And then what if the Monk is a worshiper of Urgathoa? Then the act of good will be Chaotic, or at best, Neutral.

Writing strictly on this Lawful - Chaotic & Good-Evil axis is not really as easy as it seems.

 

[Delterius]

Then what is Lawful?

A lawful neutral character is a character who is not particularly motivated by altruistic or egoistic purposes, but who has been shaped by strong beliefs in following a hierarchy and doing things properly. A Lawful Neutral character would only ceasse to follow the law due to a very personal reason.

 

[Pink Eye]

Then what is Lawful?

A lawful neutral character is a character who is not particularly motivated by altruistic or egoistic purposes, but who has been shaped by strong beliefs in following a hierarchy and doing things properly. A Lawful Neutral character would only ceasse to follow the law due to a very personal reason.

Huh, that puts it into perspective, thanks.

 

[Desiderius]

Following Six Anthitheses is the "Good" part. It will be Lawful Good only if you are, say, RP ing a Paladin

No.

Again, read the Antitheses as an argument, not scripture. Your received folly regarding anything religious is clouding your judgment.

Jesus was saying what you're trying to say.

 

[Desiderius]

Altruism is a caricature of the Good.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Jesus was saying what you're trying to say.

Only if you believe in Jesus. People who do this are the vocal minority in the world.

 

[Pink Eye]

Nope. Still not fixed:

 

[LannTheStupid]

Nope. Still not fixed:

Sorry, I'm too stupid to solve this puzzle.

 

[Efe]

he says hes getting dodge ac from arcane protector.
didnt work when i tried it.

 

[NJClaw]

Nope. Still not fixed:

Sorry, I'm too stupid to solve this puzzle.

He gains the Arcane Protector's dodge bonus even if it isn't equipped.

 

[Xamenos]

>>cruelty for its own sake
>This is why CE is so stoopid.
This is why CE is the best. I hate when I have to pick "Lawful Neutral" just to keep a dwarven smith working for me.
Come to think of it: if he does not give me the masterpiece in this playthrough I will hang him in the next.

Now that's some true kharmic "punishment in the next life" shit. I approve.

 

[Pink Eye]

LannTheStupid Supposedly they fixed the bug where Arcane Protector can give you bonuses, even if you don't have it equipped in the active weapon set. Arcane protector isn't supposed to give me the dodge bonuses, unless I have it in the active weapon set. Now do be noted I am using the latest version of Kingmaker.

Spoiler

 

[NJClaw]

LannTheStupid Supposedly they fixed the bug where Arcane Protector can give you bonuses, even if you don't have it equipped in the active weapon set. Arcane protector isn't supposed to give me the dodge bonuses, unless I have it in the active weapon set. Now do be noted I am using the latest version of Kingmaker.

Spoiler

Well, even being a bug, it still makes the game more similar to PnP Pathfinder: a monk is supposed to be able to wield a weapon (gaining benefits from its magical properties) while still using only his unarmed attacks.

 

[Desiderius]

Jesus was saying what you're trying to say.

Only if you believe in Jesus. People who do this are the vocal minority in the world.

Thanks NPC# 754376739.

That's like saying you can't understand a Hamlet soliloquy unless you believe in Hamlet.

And we haven't been vocal, to our shame, for generations. Pretending we are is convenient for those seeking an easy mark/convenient scapegoat.

CE has warped your brain, as it will.

 

[Pink Eye]

he says hes getting dodge ac from arcane protector.
didnt work when i tried it.

>didnt work when i tried it.
It's intermittent. It didn't work on my last playthrough, but it's working now. No idea what causes it.