Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[LannTheStupid]

I guess you are not using "Proper Flanking" mod then.

And you prefer to cripple not so great A.I. even more. Good for you.

 

[Haplo]

Eh, backline Linzi gets targeted all the time at the Pitax palace. But its the only place I've really noticed a backline focus.

Well, needed to be carefull in lich's prison also - if going there early.

Octavia on the other hand pretty much never got targeted. Maybe because her AC wasn't really abysmal, plus she was invisible a decent amount of time (Arcane Protector + Lightning Duelist, decent AC equipment), plus she was invisible a decent amount of time.

 

[Pink Eye]

No. He did not beat it on Unfair.

I seem to remember him posting his achievement list, maybe it wasn't the Unfair achievement but it was one from beating the game.
Could've also just been a shoop I suppose but he seems butthurt enough that he rage-played the game and regrets it.

He did beat it, on challenging. See:

 

[Sykar]

That is not the point. Proper Flanking closes the cheese to use up to 12d6 SA on Cantrips 24/7 whenever a melee is next to an enemy.

So you count maximum version of round/level long Sense Vitals in "24/7 Cantrip Cheese" but II with same duration is suddenly "short lived"?

And praise the "proper flanking" that nerfs all enemy archers and rogues into dust at the same time? When fights from Ratnook Hill in chapter 1 and up to the half of the Wild Hunt and Ghosts in chapters 6-7 rely mostly on enemy's sneaks?
Wow.

I said up to 12 SA, the "up to" was there for a reason. Even with "just" 7d6 SA the Cantrips hurt for a ranged touch attack spell that you can spam indefinetely. Yeah I am gonna praise Proper Flanking. Flanking rules in the base game are lazy and retarded. With Proper Flanking you have to put in at least a little effort instead of "shot on target who has melee on him" which the original version boils down to. Not the mods problem but lazy programming on Owlcat's part. In fact this should have been something higher difficulties should have done instead of brain dead retarded stat bloat.

I guess you are not using "Proper Flanking" mod then.

And you prefer to cripple not so great A.I. even more. Good for you.

Yeah let us ignore all the other stuff it does and concentrate on an overall minority of enemies.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Shitmaker bad! Orange chimp also.

P.S.

As mentioned in the other thread in RPG forum, I am playing ToEE now and having more fun than I ever did in Shitmaker, by several degrees of magnitude. What does that tell you fanboys?

P.P.S.

Don't tell that thing about challenging to that dumbass Nerevar. For some reason he also thought I beat it on Unfair, and I never corrected him, so he moved to China in depression.

 

[Shadenuat]

ToEE has a more solid grasp on d20 combat so it's not surprising.

but try to keep fun on your 100th bugbear.

 

[Lawntoilet]

As mentioned in the other thread in RPG forum, I am playing ToEE now and having more fun than I ever did in Shitmaker, by several degrees of magnitude. What does that tell you fanboys?

That TOEE is also a good game and that you don't like Kingmaker. Who would dispute either point?
FWIW Porky, I think you should try WotR because based on my alpha experience they have definitely dialed down the stat inflation and upped their game with AI and encounter design.
If you don't like it, you can always just call it Wank of the Right-shit.

 

[Lawntoilet]

ToEE has a more solid grasp on d20 combat so it's not surprising.

but try to keep fun on your 100th bugbear.

Kingmaker is Porky's bugbear:

bug·bear
/ˈbəɡˌber/
noun

1. a cause of obsessive fear, irritation, or loathing.

 

[Efe]

if you didnt have linzi they would be dogging octavia like crazy.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

If you don't like it, you can always just call it Wank of the Right-shit.

You mean Shitmaker 2: Math of the Righteous Munchkin?

 

[Lawntoilet]

If you don't like it, you can always just call it Wank of the Right-shit.

You mean Shitmaker 2: Math of the Righteous Munchkin?

No I didn't mean that because it's even unfunnier than the low-effort one I gifted you.

Pictured: PorkyThePaladin

 

[Haplo]

if you didnt have linzi they would be dogging octavia like crazy.

Not entirely sure about it. Octavia might have had more AC then Amiri... and often be untargetable due to Invisibility.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Yeah let us ignore all the other stuff it does and concentrate on an overall minority of enemies.

If the A.I. does not try to put its toons to establish "proper flanking" as the human player does, then this mod is a cheat. Most of the mods that change the mechanics fall into this category, including the turn-based combat mod.

I hope Owlcat did (or will do) a check that blocks achievements on any modded playthrough. An "Unfair" run where the A.I. cannot flank is not that unfair.

 

[Darko]

Apparently Valerie gets turned on by killing kobolds:

Spoiler

Added text is from Kingdom resolution mod.

 

[Desiderius]

What game are you even talking about? Every enemy in Kingmaker has an exploitable weakness and most of them can be exploited by a well prepared Wizard. Tough enemies resist your shit a lot only if you choose spells at random without knowing what you are doing. Every boss and miniboss in the first three chapters can be easily dispatched targeting its Will saving.

TBF my last playthrough the only offensive spell I regularly (you've seen an exception for that Hellfire on the Misbegotten Troll) cast post-Pitax was Greater Dispel. It does take work to consistently land spells even against weak saves on Unfair.

 

[Desiderius]

if you didnt have linzi they would be dogging octavia like crazy.

Not entirely sure about it. Octavia might have had more AC then Amiri... and often be untargetable due to Invisibility.

If you make Octavia melee she'll be your best tank.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah let us ignore all the other stuff it does and concentrate on an overall minority of enemies.

If the A.I. does not try to put its toons to establish "proper flanking" as the human player does, then this mod is a cheat. Most of the mods that change the mechanics fall into this category, including the turn-based combat mod.

I hope Owlcat did (or will do) a check that blocks achievements on any modded playthrough. An "Unfair" run where the A.I. cannot flank is not that unfair.

It's enough of a pain to get things flanked with Proper Flanking (plus it adds Soft Cover) that there is no way it advantages the player. On high level play you're doing 99% of the offense (or you die) so anything that makes offense harder increases challenge.

 

[Desiderius]

Like it or not, some people like Toughness on squishy casters who can kiss the dirt whenever a random AoE hits the party.

Jesus. Cast a False Life then.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It's enough of a pain to get things flanked with Proper Flanking (plus it adds Soft Cover) that there is no way it advantages the player.

How can it not give advantage to players if it removes one of the few sources of sneak attacks for the A.I.? It will never flank with this mod enabled, right?

 

[Desiderius]

[...] Create Pitt [...]

This took me more time than I care to admit...

Pretty sure that's Rift of Ruin.

 

[Desiderius]

It's enough of a pain to get things flanked with Proper Flanking (plus it adds Soft Cover) that there is no way it advantages the player.

How can it not give advantage to players if it removes one of the few sources of sneak attacks for the A.I.? It will never flank with this mod enabled, right?

It can, but I'm not really that worried about chip damage. You're better off not getting hit at all. Uncanny, Image, the usual.

Getting in position for Sneaks on Proper Flanking probably causes me more headaches than enemy flanking.

 

[Desiderius]

Not really. I mean sure, 1/4 to 1/3 of my slots is dedicated to nuking till late game. But I imagine it wouldn't be that much different if I used a straight Wizard. Otherwise it's mostly Conjuration CC - Grease, Glitterdust, Create Pitt and upgrades, Stinking Cloud, Chains of Light plus Phantasmal Web. Plus possibly Enlarge and occasionally Haste and Slow.

The big difference is that when I'm not casting CC, Octavia's autoattacks do 30-40 damage rather then d4 and actually meaningfully contribute. And her rays become deadly on demand.

Nobody competent is using Cantrips without AT (or for my money even with AT). The alternative action economy is tactical Demoralize, Wands, Flare, Daze, Consumables and/or using best available weapon even if you're not 100% to hit. In any fight that matters you're casting big spells by level 5 at the latest. And by midgame you've got enough slots to stay busy if you're built that way. Of course in the base game there aren't quite enough good caster Feats that you want to make that big of a difference but in CotW there defintely is.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

A class balance should not be considered with a mod in mind unless we are discussing modded games.

As is in the base game, AT is flatly more useable than full Wizard simply due to sneak attacks. For some specific instance full Wizard might have some advantages but all in all, there is 0 reason not to play AT.

Even with proper flanking (which like TB mod basically neuters enemies and makes the game easier simply because the enemies are dumbfuck who play with a different thought process, namely RtWP and free sneak attack), with extended Greater Invisibility AT is still damned good. For those important fight having Impromptu Sneak Attack are also good even with Proper Flanking.

The only instance where a straight wizard might be better than AT, is the Scroll Savant. Kingmaker is so littered with scrolls, that your endurance is exceptionally enhanced. It's such a drag that it kicks in at Level 10. It would be a dream to be able to combine Scroll Mastery of a lvl 10 Scroll Savant with Surprise Spells of a level 10 AT.

 

[Sykar]

Like it or not, some people like Toughness on squishy casters who can kiss the dirt whenever a random AoE hits the party.

Jesus. Cast a False Life then.

Cause that does not stack at all with Toughness...

Yeah let us ignore all the other stuff it does and concentrate on an overall minority of enemies.

If the A.I. does not try to put its toons to establish "proper flanking" as the human player does, then this mod is a cheat. Most of the mods that change the mechanics fall into this category, including the turn-based combat mod.

I hope Owlcat did (or will do) a check that blocks achievements on any modded playthrough. An "Unfair" run where the A.I. cannot flank is not that unfair.

No, it is not. It significantly increases difficulty for you to get sneak attacks in due to the fact that merely having a melee standing next to an enemy is not enough anymore and again taken the total amount of enemies SA is a minority of the damage you will eat overall. Also it reduces your amount of available SA AND AOO from Outflank. Hell your Reach melees now also are subject to sofcovers +4 AC bonus to the enemy if your tank stands between your melee DD and the opponent so there is that, too.
You can still eat SA from stuns, being flat footed, etc. And before you bring up AT, high level AT work the same regardless thanks to Impromptu Sneak attack and Imp. Invis.

 

[Daidre]

Hell your Reach melees now also are subject to sofcovers +4 AC bonus to the enemy if your tank stands between your melee DD and the opponent so there is that, too.

Hell, difficulty I usually play on gives +6 AC to any enemy always, +4 flat and 2 from extra DEX. And it does not turn all bandits, goblins and ghosts with Rogue levels into trash.