Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

does it matter? aside from mirror image, spells here are not hard counter, so extra 10 dr from stoneskin would do nothing against Haplos anyway. even with all defensive spells on game is still skewed towards offence.

 

[Grunker]

does it matter? aside from mirror image, spells here are not hard counter, so extra 10 dr from stoneskin would do nothing against Haplos anyway. even with all defensive spells on game is still skewed towards offence.

You're right, but the right buffs could matter. Though what you say is exactly the reason I mentioned "spell-like defenses" instead of just pre-buffing. I think the ideal would be specially coded stuff that actually hurts offensive abilities.

But then we started talking about what could realistically be achieved, and certainly pre-buffing seems like the most obvious inclusion.

 

[Delterius]

does it matter? aside from mirror image, spells here are not hard counter, so extra 10 dr from stoneskin would do nothing against Haplos anyway. even with all defensive spells on game is still skewed towards offence.

yeah but it would make things more eventful you know

oh look i just chains of light'd the ancient lich and he dead

at least give him some mirror image and shit

 

[Shadenuat]

so u d chains of light mirror imaged lich?
in bg liches had immunity to whole levels of spells. in Icewind Dale you actually had to break phylactery. dont know how they are in pathfinder pnp.

 

[Desiderius]

Git gud..? When my issue is that I haven’t reloaded a fight since level 8 even with half my characters being weirdo builds on Unfair?

I’m asking for other defenses to be raised to the level of the AC, not the other way around. That’s why I’m asking for something more PotD-like. And/or have better AI/more spell-like abjuration protections like Shadenuat suggests. Maybe even pre-buffing a la SCS (that would be glorious). 60AC doesn’t help much against 90% of the stuff in your toolbox.

After the early game, the game is simply too easy. With very few exceptions, like mandragora swarms (unless you cheese them).

You said you needed a twenty to hit. My Amiri has 57 AB for that fight and could have gotten over 60 easy if Tristian had been pumping her instead of tanking and whacking.

Which is now evidently your point.

 

[Desiderius]

I dunno, isn't that true for every game ever? The IE-games have way more basic AI than Kingmaker in my opinion, SCS is the result of 10 years of incessant iteration, of course a vanilla game can't compete with that. Even Path of the Damned only became great after patch upon patch upon patch, and it's still only great, not just good, in White March.

It's also why I love Blackguards because even though it's got pretty basic AI at least every encounter is hand-crafted to be challenging.

So it's not as much a criticism of Kingmaker I guess as it is of RPG design in general. But then, if the developers did focus more resources into better and more resilient enemies on higher difficulties, how many players would appreciate that? Aren't we a giant minority? Don't most Kingmaker-players play on core rules and don't care that they're rofl-stomping mobs past level 8?

Probably that's why we can't have nice things At least Kingmaker-devs tried in many ways. I bet there's a ton of people out there for whom the Mandrogora-swarms are wildly frustrating as opposed to finally an interesting enemy. Just like the fey-blinds which I like and would have enjoyed more of is probably something that infuriates some players ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I would love an option for more enemy pre-buffing though (there's a bit of it in the game already), and I bet it wouldn't be that hard to code. Just coding 6-7 different behaviours and applying them to enemies as applicable would be a huge upgrade. That, or more annoying attacks like the golems that cast prismatic spray!

They’re still wildly frustrating to me given the gap between what they bring to the table and everything else. Probably means I just haven’t found the right tactic yet but at this point they feel like the Poison Beasts in Wizards and Warriors whose poison ticked down (fast!) in real time while you were stuck in turn-based.

 

[Desiderius]

All right, I thought it was your 1st playthrough.

Generally, I agree that BG2's system of mage defenses and the tools to take them down are largely missing here.
(Other than that, the system here is better though. The AI too, as compared to unmodded BG2- I haven't played the mods.)

They did add True Seeing to Devourers and Vilderavns (and I believe some Devourers have Blindfight as well) so they’ve got some tools to counter our counters now. Defaced Sister at Abandoned Keep and the Troll mini-boss in Pitax have several buffs IIRC.

 

[Desiderius]

 

[Grunker]

All right, I thought it was your 1st playthrough.

Generally, I agree that BG2's system of mage defenses and the tools to take them down are largely missing here.
(Other than that, the system here is better though. The AI too, as compared to unmodded BG2- I haven't played the mods.)

They did add True Seeing to Devourers and Vilderavns (and I believe some Devourers have Blindfight as well) so they’ve got some tools to counter our counters now. Defaced Sister at Abandoned Keep and the Troll mini-boss in Pitax have several buffs IIRC.

Defaced Sisters were a pretty good enemy in general

 

[Grunker]

Git gud..? When my issue is that I haven’t reloaded a fight since level 8 even with half my characters being weirdo builds on Unfair?

I’m asking for other defenses to be raised to the level of the AC, not the other way around. That’s why I’m asking for something more PotD-like. And/or have better AI/more spell-like abjuration protections like Shadenuat suggests. Maybe even pre-buffing a la SCS (that would be glorious). 60AC doesn’t help much against 90% of the stuff in your toolbox.

After the early game, the game is simply too easy. With very few exceptions, like mandragora swarms (unless you cheese them).

You said you needed a twenty to hit. My Amiri has 57 AB for that fight and could have gotten over 60 easy if Tristian had been pumping her instead of tanking and whacking.

Which is now evidently your point.

It is not my point now, you just misunderstood my point with the AB-reference. The point wasn't "I need a 20 that sucks", it was "this enemy actually has a proper defense against AB-based attacks, too bad it still easily falls prey to a huge variety of other attacks" i.e.: the stat-bump is not enough to present challenge at this point in the game. I'm pretty sure we agree about the issue here.

 

[Shadenuat]

It's just sad how these traditionally epic enemies collapse so easily in PKM. I think vanilla black dragon in BG2 is more threatening due to aoe fear dispel and level draining breath to a party when you meet him.

 

[Grunker]

It's just sad how these traditionally epic enemies collapse so easily in PKM. I think vanilla black dragon in BG2 is more threatening due to aoe fear dispel and level draining breath to a party when you meet him.

True for some enemies, but not close to all. In vanilla IE-games without SCS, most otherwise insanely dangerous spell-casting enemies can be rushed down before they cast anything. On SCS, Twisted Rune is arguably top 5 cRPG-encounter of all time, on vanilla IE it's actually fairly easy.

 

[Grunker]

Thinking of it, Blakemoor's encounter design is a prime example of what the game could do with dangerous enemies. IIRC he locks you in a force-field while you fight swarms and meanwhile he starts pre-buffing. The fight itself isn't exactly tough but the idea is great.

 

[Shadenuat]

I feel like whole system for computah game could use some flattening (especially after level 12). So player would always be slightly underleveled compared to pnp, regardless of what is considered "balanced" in pnp. You can find yourself in such circumstance in Varnhold dlc afaik. Although there you're not swimming in ridicilous gear either.

Well can't wait for playing muh level 25 or whatsnot party in Wrath. nothing can go wrong

 

[Desiderius]

Git gud..? When my issue is that I haven’t reloaded a fight since level 8 even with half my characters being weirdo builds on Unfair?

I’m asking for other defenses to be raised to the level of the AC, not the other way around. That’s why I’m asking for something more PotD-like. And/or have better AI/more spell-like abjuration protections like Shadenuat suggests. Maybe even pre-buffing a la SCS (that would be glorious). 60AC doesn’t help much against 90% of the stuff in your toolbox.

After the early game, the game is simply too easy. With very few exceptions, like mandragora swarms (unless you cheese them).

You said you needed a twenty to hit. My Amiri has 57 AB for that fight and could have gotten over 60 easy if Tristian had been pumping her instead of tanking and whacking.

Which is now evidently your point.

It is not my point now, you just misunderstood my point with the AB-reference. The point wasn't "I need a 20 that sucks", it was "this enemy actually has a proper defense against AB-based attacks, too bad it still easily falls prey to a huge variety of other attacks" i.e.: the stat-bump is not enough to present challenge at this point in the game. I'm pretty sure we agree about the issue here.

He does have a proper defense (although to get to Bokken levels he should be able to get to 80AC fully buffed). It doesn’t follow that he can only be hit on a 20. Not close.

 

[Grunker]

Fair enough. Remember that my guys are fairly gimped though

 

[Shadenuat]

Twisted Rune is arguably top 5 cRPG-encounter of all time, on vanilla IE it's actually fairly easy.

there's nothing "ez" at face value in Twisted Rune. the enemy composition is such that even if you prebuff when you fight them for first time, there is a chance of things going wrong.

in comparison in pkm
how many encounters combine beholder lich vampire and conjurer?
not experienced players, but casuals, click through solitary bosses and are surprised that they are dead
they couldn't even pull davaeorn from bg1 level stuff into their boss tier Vordakai

*bonk* owlcat go to encounter school.

when all the repeated wolves and trolls and (probably) demons would get solved and there will be a spell caster in every semi-important fight, we can argue SCS.

 

[Desiderius]

Main challenge of VTomb is being locked in a place bigger than you thought it was with limited rations and mobs who attack you hard from a variety of new directions. Each Zombie Giant is its own Hargulka, you get quantities of Zombs you haven’t seen before, Ancient Soul Eaters with drain, touch, and high AC/SR, ghosts, Ancient Water Elementals who will freeze your ass, and even a room full of Demons if you get greedy.

Vord himself is 10,000 years old and appropriately but a shadow of his former power. Immortality is not without cost. As with any lich the main threat is the army he’s amassed over his endless years.

 

[Desiderius]

Each chapter attacks a different angle. Really only with Ch. 2 and the Big Guy himself is the principal threat the boss. Yes more prebuffing etc but some of what you’ve pointed out is by design.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yes the level design there hold the experience together, it's one of the most competent by PK standarts. But then secret lich of secret gets rekked in very similar fashion. Solitary enemies against party just cannot work on bunch of classes spells stats thrown together, unlike party on party fights where just number of threats helps encounter to not be bad.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes the level design there hold the experience together, it's one of the most competent by PK standarts. But then secret lich of secret gets rekked in very similar fashion. Solitary enemies against party just cannot work on bunch of classes spells stats thrown together, unlike party on party fights where just number of threats helps encounter to not be bad.

Bokken does, although he gets owned by Touch attax. All those classes spell stats aren’t trivial to stack, and some of them are unique to single classes some people don’t play or scale by class level so you get people hosing themselves with superfluous dips (Vord really doesn’t care about your Crane Wing).

 

[Delterius]

so u d chains of light mirror imaged lich?

how dare you ignore the and shit caveat you monster

 

[Grunker]

ok my fight with the ghost people + ankou ended up in a pretty epic elemental swarm blade barrier battle. Those things were adequately challenging. Lot's of enemies in a single encounter with tricksy attacks is what this game needed more of

 

[Trashos]

I am 100% against "moar enemies". In RTwP, that inevitably leads to clusterfucks.

But ultimately, "moar enemies" is a cheapass solution. Even an idiot developer can start adding enemies (or randomness) until a fight is hard enough. I want actual design.

That said, I am not a fan of the twisted rune fight, so our tastes in encounter design probably differ.

 

[Xamenos]

I am not a fan of the twisted rune fight