Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[hell bovine]

Son, you obviously haven't been following the discussion

Mate, you might be the one that hasn't been following. Your complaint is legitimate, and fair play to you, but the past page and a half has been about the goddamned wererats. Literally 2 posts above yours that I quoted, the guy who started this came back to bitch again about the fucking rats. This is what pisses me off. He didn't come to talk about said legitimate problem, he just wanted to bitch about an optional fight that he couldn't win. This kind of shit got us Oblivion.

Wererats with unlimited (or close enough; I consider a level 3 PC having enough bombs to kill an entire party with some left over to be infinite enough to not matter, not to mention the Wealth by Level table) bombs is bad encounter design.

According to steam forums the wererats are levels 8, at least the alchemist (I actually don't recall, but my alchemist had no problems blasting them in return at level 4). Also, you don't tumble into the cave upon arrival and if the high dc traps and mutilated corpse are not enough a warning, then I guess devs should just start posting road signs instead.

Frankly, if BG2 came out today, people would be mass rage-quitting over the crooked crane lich or the twisted rune encounters. You don't even get a warning for these.

 

[Cael]

Son, you obviously haven't been following the discussion

Mate, you might be the one that hasn't been following. Your complaint is legitimate, and fair play to you, but the past page and a half has been about the goddamned wererats. Literally 2 posts above yours that I quoted, the guy who started this came back to bitch again about the fucking rats. This is what pisses me off. He didn't come to talk about said legitimate problem, he just wanted to bitch about an optional fight that he couldn't win. This kind of shit got us Oblivion.

Wererats with unlimited (or close enough; I consider a level 3 PC having enough bombs to kill an entire party with some left over to be infinite enough to not matter, not to mention the Wealth by Level table) bombs is bad encounter design.

According to steam forums the wererats are levels 8, at least the alchemist (I actually don't recall, but my alchemist had no problems blasting them in return at level 4). Also, you don't tumble into the cave upon arrival and if the high dc traps and mutilated corpse are not enough a warning, then I guess devs should just start posting road signs instead.

Frankly, if BG2 came out today, people would be mass rage-quitting over the crooked crane lich or the twisted rune encounters. You don't even get a warning for these.

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

 

[Sharpedge]

It's called Skyrim Syndrome. Modern gamers want to SEE ENEMY - KILL ENEMY - NO THOUGHT NEEDED. It's pretty sad and steep decline, too. Handmade, non-level scaled worlds often add tough encounters off the beaten path that you will A) die to, then hopefully B) realize you need to come back later. It's fairly simple. Any talk of the "DM got it wrong" is steep, STEEP decline. Sad.

Bugmaker doesn't allow for being able to flee or retreat. You get caught in an overlevelled random encounter, you are basically dead with no recourse.

Actually you can retreat, just not during combat. You need to get away from enemies so they decide to not fight you anymore or make your whole team go invisible. Then you can exit map like normal. And this is probably a more realistic way than how IE games did it where edge of map was a magical "I am safe" area.

Exactly this. Easiest to achieve by kiting the enemies away from you with an animal companion then running the other way.

using fire resist and spamming fireball in everything is actually a legit strategy i often use after discovering it nowadays who cares about friendly AOE damage when you resist it all?

Or use fire resist and get the enemies to fireball you...While standing next to them.

Spoiler

That is how I like to kill Tartucio, just have him fireball himself.

Son, you obviously haven't been following the discussion

Mate, you might be the one that hasn't been following. Your complaint is legitimate, and fair play to you, but the past page and a half has been about the goddamned wererats. Literally 2 posts above yours that I quoted, the guy who started this came back to bitch again about the fucking rats. This is what pisses me off. He didn't come to talk about said legitimate problem, he just wanted to bitch about an optional fight that he couldn't win. This kind of shit got us Oblivion.

Wererats with unlimited (or close enough; I consider a level 3 PC having enough bombs to kill an entire party with some left over to be infinite enough to not matter, not to mention the Wealth by Level table) bombs is bad encounter design.

According to steam forums the wererats are levels 8, at least the alchemist (I actually don't recall, but my alchemist had no problems blasting them in return at level 4). Also, you don't tumble into the cave upon arrival and if the high dc traps and mutilated corpse are not enough a warning, then I guess devs should just start posting road signs instead.

Frankly, if BG2 came out today, people would be mass rage-quitting over the crooked crane lich or the twisted rune encounters. You don't even get a warning for these.

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

From what I recall, yes, they were. At least you would have to savescum them to pass the DC, since there were many of them and the chance to succeed on each 1 was very low.

 

[hell bovine]

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

Let me put it like this: the trap difficulty in this game is overplayed. I can't recall a single trap set up that would even come close to the difficulty of the traps in Durlag's Tower. Which, it seems, is nevertheless too tough for the current generation of players.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

all of the traps I triggered were on my first playthrough with only one high perception character and just ran right into them
second playthrough I had multiple characters with perception as a backup

 

[Cael]

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

Let me put it like this: the trap difficulty in this game is overplayed. I can't recall a single trap set up that would even come close to the difficulty of the traps in Durlag's Tower. Which, it seems, is nevertheless too tough for the current generation of players.

Then, yes, it is a gotcha set up. Doable, doable, doable, WTFOGMAHHH!!!!

 

[ArchAngel]

Why are you people feeding the troll that didn't even play the game?!
He did this same shit in Battletech topic, bashed the game without playing it. At least that game was bad so he was only half retarded there.
Just stop responding to his shit, he has no problem putting people on ignore that show him how dumb he is.

 

[Efe]

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

at lv3, unbuffed linzi had to roll 8 or higher to disarm traps.

 

[Fedora Master]

Were the DCs of the traps high enough that you would fail trying to disarm them?

You see, that is one of the traps (if you will pardon the pun) of stat bloat and psycho stacking. As Xykon once said, "It is still tied to your lame mid-level ass!" I don't think I need to spell out why, do I?

Let me put it like this: the trap difficulty in this game is overplayed. I can't recall a single trap set up that would even come close to the difficulty of the traps in Durlag's Tower. Which, it seems, is nevertheless too tough for the current generation of players.

Once again THE HOUSE is the odd man out here, because it has some shit-ass traps AND forces you to solo at least for a little while so if your MC doesn't have Perception you can easily get screwed.

 

[hell bovine]

Yep, I agree with all the criticism regarding the last chapters; both the mobs and the general design were just not fun.

But what annoys me is this toning down of all optional content, because a player might stub their toe and complain about it. Durlag's tower had lightning traps that could chunk your thief and half of your party if you were not careful. Nowadays I'm just waiting for a game dev to come up with level scaled traps, with the way things are going.

 

[archaen]

Why are you people feeding the troll that didn't even play the game?!
He did this same shit in Battletech topic, bashed the game without playing it. At least that game was bad so he was only half retarded there.
Just stop responding to his shit, he has no problem putting people on ignore that show him how dumb he is.

Maybe they are just trying to get the page count up after the Infinitrocalypse.

 

[Efe]

Yep, I agree with all the criticism regarding the last chapters; both the mobs and the general design were just not fun.

But what annoys me is this toning down of all optional content, because a player might stub their toe and complain about it. Durlag's tower had lightning traps that could chunk your thief and half of your party if you were not careful. Nowadays I'm just waiting for a game dev to come up with level scaled traps, with the way things are going.

already done. tyranny has skill checks leveled to your character. traps use subterfuge skill.

 

[ga♥]

For anyone playing the 1.2 beta, are the loading times better since they said they were addressing the issue

 

[Gregz]

Someone is starting a Kingmaker roll20 session if anyone is interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lfg/comments/aakt0b/online_pathfinder_discord_roll20_saturdays_gm/

 

[Raghar]

Wererats with unlimited (or close enough; I consider a level 3 PC having enough bombs to kill an entire party with some left over to be infinite enough to not matter, not to mention the Wealth by Level table) bombs is bad encounter design. As I said, I don't mind running into an encounter you are not supposed to defeat until much later. That is why I like Fallout 2. Run towards Navarro or San Fran straight out of Aroyo and you are taking your own life into your own hands. So, the question is, were you directed to another place away from the area? Or is it in the general area of where you are supposed to go and you can stumble onto it accidentally resulting in "Oh snap, you dead!"?

That wererat is an alchemist, its bombs are a class feature and have nothing to do with wealth by level. Additionally it has an armor that provides additional uses of that class feature, and all three creatures buff themselves after you trigger the alarm outside of their cave. There are many examples of bad encounter design in this game, but this optional area isn't it.

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Someone is starting a Kingmaker roll20 session if anyone is interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lfg/comments/aakt0b/online_pathfinder_discord_roll20_saturdays_gm/

Homophobic white nationalist types need not apply.

So most of the Codex is fucked.

And they also want to know your pronouns.

 

[Elex]

Balance to the point of making everything equal undermines the entire point of combat in an RPG.
For a good example, look at pretty much any modern MMORPG.

The irony of that statement is... staggering.

MMORPGs largely share their combat with single player RPGs. It's only a recent trend that they moved away from spreadsheets and number crunching to safety scissor design

mmorpg are dead.

 

[2house2fly]

Balance in RPGs is dumb.

Breaking RPGs or ruining your character and needing to start over is what makes RPGs a lot of fun. It's the thinking man's genre. If I want balance I'll bust out the 2600 and play Pong, nigga.

if an option sucks then why have it in the game? If one option is a million times better than all the others, why have any others in the game?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Someone is starting a Kingmaker roll20 session if anyone is interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lfg/comments/aakt0b/online_pathfinder_discord_roll20_saturdays_gm/

Homophobic white nationalist types need not apply.

So most of the Codex is fucked.

And they also want to know your pronouns.

I sexually Identify as an AMD Radeon RX Vega 64. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of generating beautiful game graphics and running Crysis on max settings. People say to me that a person being an AMD Radeon is impossible and I'm fucking retarded but I don't care, I'm beautiful. I'm having a plastic surgeon install 8GB HBM2 VRAM, high-quality transistors and blower fans on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me "Vega" and respect my right to run games on max settings. If you can't accept me you're a Nvidiot and need to check your gaming privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.

 

[Butter]

Balance in RPGs is dumb.

Breaking RPGs or ruining your character and needing to start over is what makes RPGs a lot of fun. It's the thinking man's genre. If I want balance I'll bust out the 2600 and play Pong, nigga.

if an option sucks then why have it in the game? If one option is a million times better than all the others, why have any others in the game?

This is a reasonable mindset. The problem is when you go full Sawyer and make your attributes barely matter, just so that players can't accidentally make a bad character.

 

[Cael]

Balance in RPGs is dumb.

Breaking RPGs or ruining your character and needing to start over is what makes RPGs a lot of fun. It's the thinking man's genre. If I want balance I'll bust out the 2600 and play Pong, nigga.

if an option sucks then why have it in the game? If one option is a million times better than all the others, why have any others in the game?

This is a reasonable mindset. The problem is when you go full Sawyer and make your attributes barely matter, just so that players can't accidentally make a bad character.

The other extreme is a game that forces you to only play certain builds to survive. That means you don't get to muck around with fun but not uber-powerful builds because you won't get to finish the game. For example, a challenge we had recently was to play an all pure cleric party in IWD2. You try the equivalent in Bugmaker, like say an all pure Fighter party, you are likely fucked.

 

[Gregz]

The other extreme is a game that forces you to only play certain builds to survive. That means you don't get to muck around with fun but not uber-powerful builds because you won't get to finish the game. For example, a challenge we had recently was to play an all pure cleric party in IWD2. You try the equivalent in Bugmaker, like say an all pure Fighter party, you are likely fucked.

Combat difficulty is the least of Kingfaker's problems.

 

[Cael]

The other extreme is a game that forces you to only play certain builds to survive. That means you don't get to muck around with fun but not uber-powerful builds because you won't get to finish the game. For example, a challenge we had recently was to play an all pure cleric party in IWD2. You try the equivalent in Bugmaker, like say an all pure Fighter party, you are likely fucked.

Combat difficulty is the least of Kingfaker's problems.

Aww, if you listen to all the fanbois, you'd think bugmaker is the most perfect thing ever and you can't say a bad thing about it on pain of "paizohu akbar!!!"

 

[Sarkile]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

 

[Cael]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.