Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[rusty_shackleford]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

pathfinder isn't D&D3.5, stop bringing it up already

 

[Cael]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

pathfinder isn't D&D3.5, stop bringing it up already

He said 2E.

 

[Lhynn]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

pathfinder isn't D&D3.5, stop bringing it up already

But moooooooom, he started it!

 

[Incendax]

The other extreme is a game that forces you to only play certain builds to survive. That means you don't get to muck around with fun but not uber-powerful builds because you won't get to finish the game. For example, a challenge we had recently was to play an all pure cleric party in IWD2. You try the equivalent in Bugmaker, like say an all pure Fighter party, you are likely fucked.

This is not remotely true. Even on Hard Difficulty the default characters (even the really bad ones) are enough to beat the game by themselves without your character being involved except in story critical places like Verdant Gardens. This means it literally does not matter what you personally play. Even if you go full mercenary for a theme party, the worst that would happen is a rather linear game where you have visit all the weaker areas first to build up your strength.

 

[Cael]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

pathfinder isn't D&D3.5, stop bringing it up already

But moooooooom, he started it!

Correcting someone is a bad thing according to the paiturd fanbois. How quaint.

Listen, kiddies. If you like big numbers and stat bloat, go play a JRPG.

 

[Sarkile]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

Fine, from the 3.5 Monster Manual the Harpy, Mummy Lord, Ogre, and Troll Hunter are presented with class levels. That's not including the several templates that are assumed to be added on top of a creature with class levels such as Vampire, Half-Fiend etc.

 

[Dedup]

An interesting thing just happened while I was playing. I was exploring the overland map when a random encounter gave me 2 primal manticores. I tried attacking but the party was no match for them at this point (everyone's at about level 6). We managed to take out one but more than half of the party was down. The second manticore took out everyone else leaving Kanerah for last. I was pretty much resigned to a reload when I noticed that even though Kanerah was reduced to no health and kept getting knocked down, she would get back up and attack with a fire blast before being knocked down again. I let the fight run and she eventually beat the monster. When I took a look at her stats this is what I found:

Spoiler

I guess the large constitution damage and negative hit points was to much for the game to handle and made her immortal instead of killing her. Anyone else have something like this happen?

 

[Cael]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

Fine, from the 3.5 Monster Manual the Harpy, Mummy Lord, Ogre, and Troll Hunter are presented with class levels. That's not including the several templates that are assumed to be added on top of a creature with class levels such as Vampire, Half-Fiend etc.

All those you mentioned are considered exceptional creatures and not the base standard monster, which was what you were talking about. All of them, without fail, are actually side-by-side with a normal specimen of the species and none of the normal ones have class levels.

Plus none of them are wererats, which was also what you were talking about.

You are one deceitful paiturd, aren't you?

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

This will forever go down in RPG Codex history as "The Wererat Debacle."

 

[Cael]

This will forever go down in RPG Codex history as "The Wererat Debacle."

I am just surprised that he didn't point out the Dire Wolf Lycan (Werewolf Lord), which would have fit his narrative better.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Or the Crag Linnorm. There's an impossible monster to fight at the level you first explore that map, yet you make a mental note and come back later.

 

[Incendax]

This will forever go down in RPG Codex history as "The Wererat Debacle."

I'm convinced the Wererats are a puzzle fight.

The first time you walk in there, you are probably going to get your ass kicked. But if your perception is good you discover a chime trap outside that you can dismantle. Without the chime, one of the wererats does not start the fight invisible and you can alpha strike it out of existence. Even if you do not spot the chimes, only two of the wererats are high level. If you pass a lore check, you discover that one of the wererats is only level 2 (possibly a child?) and easily defeated. If you focus him down, the higher level wererat cannot get his flank mojo on besides winning initiative and taking advantage of you being flat-footed. But that specific wererat also has a TERRIBLE will saving throw even on Hard Difficulty, so a simple Cause Fear spell can make him run around like an idiot. The targeting on the alchemist is similarly lackluster, and you can not only cast fire resistance... but also move whoever is being attacked by bombs away from the others (possibly up into the alchemists face). So, it's a dangerous fight if things go their way. But they crumple like a house of cards if you study their weaknesses and exploit them (which IS possible without metagame knowledge if your skills checks are good enough).

Many fights in Kingmaker can be herp-derp, but this one has a pretty clever design.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Wait until level 5 and/or use Resist Energy Communal, Fire.

 

[Incendax]

Wait until level 5 and/or use Resist Energy Communal, Fire.

Level 5 is a great level to take them on. At that point you have Heroism, +2 Inspire, Bulls/Cats, Reckless Aura, Outflank, and possibly even some Freebooter goodness.
It's not impossible to have +20 Attack at Level 5.

 

[Sarkile]

Wait until level 5 and/or use Resist Energy Communal, Fire.

Level 5 is a great level to take them on. At that point you have Heroism, +2 Inspire, Bulls/Cats, Reckless Aura, Outflank, and possibly even some Freebooter goodness.
It's not impossible to have +20 Attack at Level 5.

If you have a Wizard or a scroll with UMD you can also toss a Haste on the party to make the encounter trivial.

 

[Sharpedge]

Wererats are meant as a joke encounter, it seems some people are just completely humorless.

 

[hell bovine]

The other extreme is a game that forces you to only play certain builds to survive. That means you don't get to muck around with fun but not uber-powerful builds because you won't get to finish the game. For example, a challenge we had recently was to play an all pure cleric party in IWD2. You try the equivalent in Bugmaker, like say an all pure Fighter party, you are likely fucked.

This is not remotely true. Even on Hard Difficulty the default characters (even the really bad ones) are enough to beat the game by themselves without your character being involved except in story critical places like Verdant Gardens. This means it literally does not matter what you personally play. Even if you go full mercenary for a theme party, the worst that would happen is a rather linear game where you have visit all the weaker areas first to build up your strength.

The funny thing is, I recall how back in ye olde days people claimed you couldn't possibly solo BG2. Too difficult, you need this and that to make it, a solo character couldn't handle it all, etc. And it went from there to no-reloading SCS/Ascension.

 

[ArchAngel]

Wererats are meant as a joke early challenge encounter, it seems some people are just completely humorless retarded.

Fixed it for you.

 

[hell bovine]

Yep, I agree with all the criticism regarding the last chapters; both the mobs and the general design were just not fun.

But what annoys me is this toning down of all optional content, because a player might stub their toe and complain about it. Durlag's tower had lightning traps that could chunk your thief and half of your party if you were not careful. Nowadays I'm just waiting for a game dev to come up with level scaled traps, with the way things are going.

already done. tyranny has skill checks leveled to your character. traps use subterfuge skill.

Lol, I forgot about that! Ah well, seems I'm not a visionary, just senile.

 

[ArchAngel]

And this is a problem. A monster, that has hero class training should be exceedingly rare. In fact even common town guards shouldn't have hero class training. Typical beginning of hero training is training under idiot and surviving until he can do what he was trained.

So no barbarian class trolls. No defensive fighting +dodge +special fighter defensive training for +30 AC. AC can't be trough the roof. Basically what we seen in BG I, and to some extend in BG II. Pathfinder seems like few teenagers seen rules and doing theirs first campaign.

The basic Wererat presented in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a level 2 Rogue, and is a template that can be added to other characters. Your assumption of what monsters and classes should be hasn't really been accurate since the 2E days.

3.5 use the NPC warrior class, not the PC rogue class.

I love it. Cael has finally proved he knows shit about 3.5 as well. We already know he is completely clueless about Pathfinder. This proves Cael is one of those retarded DMs that never opened or read a little book called DM guide.
And in DM guide there are rules that explain how to add PC classes to any monster and how their Challenge Rating changes with it.
Go away retard. Go troll Pillows 2 topic, they deserve you more.

 

[Shadenuat]

Wererats is how every encounter should have been, instead of 22 undead cyclops

Cheese hidden in their stash was an extra lolz

 

[Cael]

Variety from insect hives and cultists or even demons (makes sense for the Vordakai dungeon) would have relaxed this problem.

Someone is asking to be sent to the Elemental Plane of Bees...

 

[Fedora Master]

Somehow the beta managed to break the second bandit encounter at Olegs so I can't progress.

 

[Yosharian]

This will forever go down in RPG Codex history as "The Wererat Debacle."

I'm convinced the Wererats are a puzzle fight.

The first time you walk in there, you are probably going to get your ass kicked. But if your perception is good you discover a chime trap outside that you can dismantle. Without the chime, one of the wererats does not start the fight invisible and you can alpha strike it out of existence. Even if you do not spot the chimes, only two of the wererats are high level. If you pass a lore check, you discover that one of the wererats is only level 2 (possibly a child?) and easily defeated. If you focus him down, the higher level wererat cannot get his flank mojo on besides winning initiative and taking advantage of you being flat-footed. But that specific wererat also has a TERRIBLE will saving throw even on Hard Difficulty, so a simple Cause Fear spell can make him run around like an idiot. The targeting on the alchemist is similarly lackluster, and you can not only cast fire resistance... but also move whoever is being attacked by bombs away from the others (possibly up into the alchemists face). So, it's a dangerous fight if things go their way. But they crumple like a house of cards if you study their weaknesses and exploit them (which IS possible without metagame knowledge if your skills checks are good enough).

Many fights in Kingmaker can be herp-derp, but this one has a pretty clever design.

This is all well and good but you do still need to be fairly high level to focus these rats down quickly. They're not THAT weak. Myself I beat it by spamming Hideous Laughter and focusing them down one by one, as you said. Since I have Detective Mode on, I didn't know when the Laughters were about to wear off, which added an extra layer of difficulty.

 

[Sharpedge]

For solo gameplay I beat them by spamming stinking cloud and animate dead. By the time you get to them in a solo playthrough, you will have access to both spells if you are a spellcaster that can gain those spells.