Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[LannTheStupid]

That's why you use that thing between your ears, do research and build a teleportation network. Also, you look at the map and prioritize the regions to grab soonest.

You know, as a competent ruler would do.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

That's why you use that thing between your ears, do research and build a teleportation network. Also, you look at the map and prioritize the regions to grab soonest.

You know, as a competent ruler would do.

Which is only possible with foreknowledge, as there is no tech tree in this game. Where does it tell you in the game that teleporter pads are a thing and you need Arcane Level 2 to unlock them?
"Just grab regions" isn't helpful advice either, because the regions also have some obscure prerequisites, are bloody expensive and also consume two weeks of your time.

"Competent ruler" doesn't mean being able to check the wiki every 3 seconds.

Also, what do you do if you're stuck in an upgrade loop? There was a point in my playthrough where I ranked up, then I was qualified for another rank up so I ranked up again, then I was qualified for yet other rank up. This was for the same stat.
That really ate up a lot of time. I guess I was doing too well?

 

[Bigg Boss]

I'm halfway through the game and this is the first I heard of a teleportation network.

Maybe because I never used a wizard much up to this point?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I'm halfway through the game and this is the first I heard of a teleportation network.

Maybe because I never used a wizard much up to this point?

Yeah you really need to rank up divine as soon as possible just to unlock the magister.
The game does tell you that ranking up divine unlocks arcane, but it's not obvious; if you float your cursor over the kingdom stats it gives a little more information.
There is still nothing that tells you what those stats actually unlock though.

Also, if you get the event where you can dedicate a temple to a god, don't bother going for Abadar. It's bugged and you get nothing. Which bloody sucks if you're Lawful.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I think I found out early enough because I will be finishing up Varnhold soon.

 

[LannTheStupid]

CthuluIsSpy you learn by failing and trying again.

First, I think there is something about teleporting in the description of the Mage's Tower. The Tower is available right after the first upgrade of the capital. However, it is a hint, not an instruction.
Second, you rank up strategically. Gather up all the events together, spread the advisors, rank up one of them. Boom, you have several solved events, for better or for worse. Also, never rank up through the end of the month.
Third, I think Varnhold is marked on the map even before it is accessible. So when you receive something from Varn (which is earlier than Varnhold's Vanishing begins) you know that you need to somehow get closer.

The more I write about this aspect of the game the more I like it. It reminds me of Dark Souls where to uncover the plot the player needs to meticulously read and connect all the clues.

What I definitely agree with is that both Owlcat games cannot be ironmanned blindly. Most likely several first attempts will fail.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Except this is meant to be based on a PnP game, where trial and error isn't really a thing.
How many DMs do you know will allow you have Do-Overs?

Not to mention how long the game is. Save Scumming is a crutch, not a sign of good design.
Dark Souls is not applicable here; you don't lose everything in Dark Souls when you die, even your souls can be reclaimed. Souls don't even matter in the end, as there will be a point where you have more souls than you know what to do with.
As long as you get the items and unlock the short cuts you're fine as they are not reset, no progress is lost. If you're forced to restart in Kingmaker or reload a save you lose your progress. That's just wasting the player's time.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Except this is meant to be based on a PnP game, where trial and error isn't really a thing.
How many DMs do you know will allow you have Do-Overs?

Not to mention how long the game is. Save Scumming is a crutch, not a sign of good design.
Dark Souls is not applicable here; you don't lose everything in Dark Souls when you die, even your souls can be reclaimed. Souls don't even matter in the end, as there will be a point where you have more souls than you know what to do with.
As long as you get the items and unlock the short cuts you're fine as they are not reset, no progress is lost. If you're forced to restart in Kingmaker or reload a save you lose your progress. That's just wasting the player's time.

It's a computer game based on a PnP game, not a PnP game. A lot that works in PnP won't work as well in a computer game. You can't really balance it for no saves, it's way too long so only a hanful of super obsessives would bother finishing it. If you think about it, in PnP it's not true ironman. If your character dies and isn't able to be raised you aren't told by your DM that you're dead and to go home and hang yourself like in a chick tract. You roll a new character or get given an NPC to take over as a PC and you keep playing. That would be very hard to emulate in a story based cRPG. So you need a save. But there is an optional permadeath, no saving mode. It's exiting, but it's a bitch. I can't finish it.

But I think it's absurd to think save scumming is built into the design. I've heard others say this here. It's not. The only part of this game where I feel compelled to save scum is the stupid chests and perception checks. The perception checks are only because I've played before and I'm hunting for specific items. If it was my first playthrough I wouldn't know what I was missing. The chests are a bitch and a shit design choice. You have to come back when you level up to try the trickery check again, and many have insanely high DCs. Can't I just pry it open with my sword or something? Still, neither of these things actually force save scumming and an experienced player has ways to make those checks without doing so (multiple characters trained in the skill + stacking luck domain power with inspire competence).

I can't think of anything that actually soft locks you in this game. There's bound to be something but not much comes to mind. Party member death, curses, diseases etc can all be fixed pretty easily by your two clerics. It's only PC death or TPK that causes a game over and that's pretty rare after level 5 if you don't suck at making characters and know what buffs stack with what. I can only speak for up to hard difficulty, but if you're playing on unfair you get what it says on the tin.

*I started ranting here. You don't need to read this bit*

More generally, in response to many comments I've seen about "This or that isn't like the tabletop", I'd say that if anything I think Owlcat's design philosophy leaned too heavily towards the ideal of directly importing mechanics from the PnP that don't work the same in a computer game. For example - minute*class level buffs. These aren't meant to be something you walk around with always on. But in Kingmaker you can clear half a large dungeon in 10 minutes and then camp in the dungeon before clearing the other half. Fully buffed at all times there isn't much that can really worry you. Functionally they are no different from hour*class level buffs which you are meant to be able to have always on. It's kinda game breaking. This clearly needed to be reduced to 5 seconds*class level for minute*level buffs and 10 minutes*class level for hour*class level buffs to allow these buffs to be used as they would be in PnP while accounting for the for the faster pacing of a cRPG. They should have aimed more to emulate the spirit of the PnP experience, rather than directly translating mechanics.

Aside from this, loads and loads of abilities are in the game that are fucking useless in a cRPG. Touching someone to give them a bonus on one charisma based skill check? As if that bullcrap deserves a place in my hotbar. I can see that being useful in PnP but you can't even cast spell in dialogue in this game. So it's a trash ability and shouldn't be in the game. There's loads of spells and domain powers like this. What about a 50 foot AOE that has friendly fire? Sure there are times you can use it, but not many. It sucks. You wish it was 20 feet, or 10. The scale is smaller in a computer game. I could go on but looking at the length of this post I kind of already have. The point is they should have cut the shit that doesn't work from the cRPG and modified it or replaced it. Because it's not a PnP game and can't be. It's just meant to feel like a PnP game but cRPGs need adaptation of PnP systems to achieve this.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yes I do agree. Some of the entries for abilities read like they just copied from the Pathfinder Rulebook, and it's really jarring to see in a CRPG.
The entry for Regeneration, for example, talks about how a creature with regen can reattach a limb within an hour. Since when does that happen in the game?

The thing about having only one attempt to pick locks per level is indeed poor design, especially when the game doesn't even tell you that the chest is locked to begin with. So it's entirely possible to waste your attempt by accident, and that's no fun.

I'd argue the save scumming problem goes further than that though. There are some truly poorly designed areas in the game that require foresight and save scumming to get through. The Tomb of Vordakai is probably the most egregious example, as that area locks you in and consists of multiple grueling encounters, including one that's just pure bullshit, both from a PnP RPG perspective and a CRPG perspective, as it completely takes control away from the player and causes the party members to act like idiots for no reason. If you die or run out of supplies, you'll have to reload a save all the way before you even set foot in that area because there's no running out of there to a priest or a shop. I dread to imagine what trying to Iron Man that area would be like because of the amount of nonsense it throws at you.

That's why people say save scumming is part of the design, because the game has a nasty habit of throwing some crap at you that you need to know in advance to counteract, because if you don't have an answer for it's game over. Hence save scumming and reloading. Which does detract from the experience, both as a CPRG and as an emulation of a PnP game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Actually, I can imagine a DM that puts the whole party to the state of confusion or takes the agency from the players by other means. I would like to play in such a group.

Sadly, I am not in Moscow.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, but actually putting words in the players' mouths and saying "Your character blurts out his name to the soul stealing demon. No, you aren't under mind control, no you don't get to roll for it, no you don't get to be clever and lie to it, shut up"?
That's just being shit DM. He's going to have to better than that if he wants to bamboozle his players.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Yeah, but actually putting words in the players' mouths and saying "Your character blurts out his name to the soul stealing demon. No, you aren't under mind control, no you don't get to roll for it, no you don't get to be clever and lie to it, shut up"?
That's just being shit DM. He's going to have to better than that if he wants to bamboozle his players.

Well, in my game the name of my hero revealed one of the Defaced Sisters, and my companions told their names by their own volition. I guess the latter can happen in a table top if someone wants to play an interesting role.

So your mileage may vary.

Also, your cleric should have Crusader's Edge at this moment. And those Eaters are evil outsiders. Problem solved, no?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

That's the thing, your characters shouldn't be revealing their names out of their own volition, because given the context it just makes them look really stupid. Especially it's someone like Tristian who should know better than to reveal his name to the creepy bird in a tomb filled with dark magic when the party already fought Soul Stealers in a similar location, especially when their leader is trying his damnedest to not give their names away.
It's the equivalent of idiot characters in horror movies where they go towards the creepy dark corner of the room. It feels really forced and punishes the players who want to act with prudence and self-preservation, that is to say, not fall for the bird's bait.
And there's nothing you can do to get around it other than meta-gaming it and using foreknowledge, which is bullshit because that is not how you roleplay. You can't even give the crow fake names and take a bluff check, which is what players would try to do.

If it were someone like Amiri, I'd get it, she's a hot headed barbarian who tends not to think that much. But literally anyone else? They'd have to be complete cretins given the circumstance.

Don't soul stealers use true names too, not given names? It seems really odd how it's that easy for them to just eat your soul if they know your parents named you Bob.

I tried Crusader's Edge. Didn't help because the game decided to have Octavia and Tristian go full retard. My character was an Alchemist. I built Octavia to be a mage, not a fighter. Tristian was the only one with crusader edge. The game also throws 6 soul stealers after losing half the party. And for some reason, everyone kept missing. You do the math.

I had to reload a save from two hours prior and replace Octavia and Reg with Harrim and Jahael and nominated those two. It went better, but it was still bullshit because I had to undo all of that progress and bring a tailored party, all because of some bullshit cinematic encounter where three party members had to have their little one on one duel with a demon (because fuck casters, am I right?) followed by a gank of 6 demons.

It probably worked better on the tabletop, but in a CRPG? Complete tedium and horseshit.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I tried Crusader's Edge. Didn't help because the game decided to have Octavia and Tristian go full retard. My character was an Alchemist. I built Octavia to be a mage, not a fighter. Tristian was the only one with crusader edge. The game also throws 6 soul stealers after losing half the party. You do the math.

Well, I don't remember what I did, but maybe I made my hero spill the names of those who are the most robust. I remember Octavia kiting and shooting Sroching Rays (which was very good as she was Arcane Trickster), Regongar and my hero were using Crusader's Edged weapons and fought the Soul Eaters. It was OK-ish on Hard. Never tried it on Unfair - probably, would have to redo the dungeon.

Surely, I lost the fight the first time, reloaded, redid the spells, rested - and passed.

Also, an Alchemist should have Holy Bombs around this time, and with Expeditious Retreat he can kite, too.

As I were writing before: Owlcat games are probably not ironmannable blind.

 

[mondblut]

Yeah, the pacing is a little off. A lot of the time spent is for useless crap like camping, travel and dialogue cutscenes too.
Do I have to watch the camping sequence every time? Do my characters have to move that slowly on both the world map and the area map? Why isn't there a bloody fast forward button?

- You also need to return to capital every couple of weeks to solve problems, thus wasting time and stopping you from finishing the quests
- Ranking up takes up two weeks of your time because apparently ranking up the kingdom forces you into a stasis chamber that you can't leave from, meaning that once the two weeks are up a lot of bullshit has occurred without you knowing about it.

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, the pacing is a little off. A lot of the time spent is for useless crap like camping, travel and dialogue cutscenes too.
Do I have to watch the camping sequence every time? Do my characters have to move that slowly on both the world map and the area map? Why isn't there a bloody fast forward button?

- You also need to return to capital every couple of weeks to solve problems, thus wasting time and stopping you from finishing the quests
- Ranking up takes up two weeks of your time because apparently ranking up the kingdom forces you into a stasis chamber that you can't leave from, meaning that once the two weeks are up a lot of bullshit has occurred without you knowing about it.

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

Might do just that. How easy is it to mod kingmaker, and is Bag of Tricks just QoL improvements or does it affect the balance?

 

[Bloodeyes]

That's the thing, your characters shouldn't be revealing their names out of their own volition, because given the context it just makes them look really stupid. Especially it's someone like Tristian who should know better than to reveal his name to the creepy bird in a tomb filled with dark magic when the party already fought Soul Stealers in a similar location, especially when their leader is trying his damnedest to not give their names away.
It's the equivalent of idiot characters in horror movies where they go towards the creepy dark corner of the room. It feels really forced and punishes the players who want to act with prudence and self-preservation, that is to say, not fall for the bird's bait.
And there's nothing you can do to get around it other than meta-gaming it and using foreknowledge, which is bullshit because that is not how you roleplay. You can't even give the crow fake names and take a bluff check, which is what players would try to do.

If it were someone like Amiri, I'd get it, she's a hot headed barbarian who tends not to think that much. But literally anyone else? They'd have to be complete cretins given the circumstance.

Don't soul stealers use true names too, not given names? It seems really odd how it's that easy for them to just eat your soul if they know your parents named you Bob.

I tried Crusader's Edge. Didn't help because the game decided to have Octavia and Tristian go full retard. My character was an Alchemist. I built Octavia to be a mage, not a fighter. Tristian was the only one with crusader edge. The game also throws 6 soul stealers after losing half the party. And for some reason, everyone kept missing. You do the math.

I had to reload a save from two hours prior and replace Octavia and Reg with Harrim and Jahael and nominated those two. It went better, but it was still bullshit because I had to undo all of that progress and bring a tailored party, all because of some bullshit cinematic encounter where three party members had to have their little one on one duel with a demon (because fuck casters, am I right?) followed by a gank of 6 demons.

It probably worked better on the tabletop, but in a CRPG? Complete tedium and horseshit.

That encounter was traumatic the first time I experienced it. Linzi, the character I wanted to disappoint the least ate a crit and exploded into bloody chunks before my eyes. I found it a bit railroaded, sure, but it was an intense moment. I can't pretend I was happy, but games like this aren't supposed to be fun and fair all the time. Sometimes they have to suck and be no fun to give tension to the encounters and meaning to your triumphs. You'd feel safe if there was a way of predicting and preventing everything that could happen to you. You'd relax and then you'd get bored.

Vordakai's tomb is no joke the first time and like you I went in with no supplies and pushed forward relentlessly, eventually dying to the last man. In later playthroughs I realized that you can easily clear the thing by bringing 12 rations along and camping twice, or by just walking out the door at any time. Yeah it closes behind you in the first fight but (at least for me) it opens again after that. It's a shame actually. That tomb is fucking hard core on your first run. Like something out of an old school DnD module (I've not actually played these but I've watched youtube videos. DnD used to not fuck around). Deadly, terrifying and wholly unfair. I loved it. That bit where you enter the banquet hall and get mobbed by all the zombies is pretty awesome.

I wish I could re experience the menace and intensity of my first run in Vordakai's tomb. As a BBEG he just felt like such a genuine threat, especially as I dragged my heels doing artisan quests and had a time limit on that act before my barony fell. Discovering his story as you explored that place, the back and forth with that bastard raven, it all build him up into something that felt truly frightening. A genuine ancient evil, both iconic in that he's a lich and alien in that he's a Cyclops from a dead empire (that he killed). Until you meet him and he's a chump who you beat in two rounds of course. Flawed masterpiece is my verdict on this game. Heavy emphasis on the "flawed", but still a masterpiece.

Clearing that tomb is a piece of piss on your second attempt. There's nothing that bad in there. By that point nothing is too much of a threat to you when fully buffed, so if you've got rations to rebuff a couple times it's nothing. Ancient soul eaters have crazy AC but aren't undead. Any kind of damage works on them, including necrotic. Characters with decent AB can just kill them with weapons. I play on hard and don't minmax Valerie. I keep her in tower shield specialist, give her a +4 STR belt and a +1 flaming bastard sword, and have her at 16 base STR by this point. Her BAB, gear and weapon focus is enough that she can kill them. Buffed. Bombs kill everything and don't need to hit. Yawn. It's never as intense as the first time. "Who among you do you most fear disappointing?" Any martial. I tend to pick Valerie. "Who is the weakest?" Jubilost. Chop, chop, chop, bomb, bomb, bomb. Dead soul eaters.

 

[mondblut]

Might do just that. How easy is it to mod kingmaker,

You install Unity Mod Manager and it gets added right into the game's main menu.

and is Bag of Tricks just QoL improvements or does it affect the balance?

It has about 9000 options to enable. Everything from "you can open kingdom management anywhere" to "you always roll natural 20 and enemies always roll 1". Pretty much every single aspect of game mechanics is open for tinkering with.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Yeah, the pacing is a little off. A lot of the time spent is for useless crap like camping, travel and dialogue cutscenes too.
Do I have to watch the camping sequence every time? Do my characters have to move that slowly on both the world map and the area map? Why isn't there a bloody fast forward button?

- You also need to return to capital every couple of weeks to solve problems, thus wasting time and stopping you from finishing the quests
- Ranking up takes up two weeks of your time because apparently ranking up the kingdom forces you into a stasis chamber that you can't leave from, meaning that once the two weeks are up a lot of bullshit has occurred without you knowing about it.

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

Might do just that. How easy is it to mod kingmaker, and is Bag of Tricks just QoL improvements or does it affect the balance?

While you're at it grab Kingdom Resolution, Respecialization, Races Unleashed, Fencing Fix, Visual adjustments and Call of the Wild, but leave CoTW for a second playthrough. All from the nexus. I don't use bag of tricks myself because I don't trust myself to not cheat but it's a popular mod for a reason I'm sure.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

That's the thing, your characters shouldn't be revealing their names out of their own volition, because given the context it just makes them look really stupid. Especially it's someone like Tristian who should know better than to reveal his name to the creepy bird in a tomb filled with dark magic when the party already fought Soul Stealers in a similar location, especially when their leader is trying his damnedest to not give their names away.
It's the equivalent of idiot characters in horror movies where they go towards the creepy dark corner of the room. It feels really forced and punishes the players who want to act with prudence and self-preservation, that is to say, not fall for the bird's bait.
And there's nothing you can do to get around it other than meta-gaming it and using foreknowledge, which is bullshit because that is not how you roleplay. You can't even give the crow fake names and take a bluff check, which is what players would try to do.

If it were someone like Amiri, I'd get it, she's a hot headed barbarian who tends not to think that much. But literally anyone else? They'd have to be complete cretins given the circumstance.

Don't soul stealers use true names too, not given names? It seems really odd how it's that easy for them to just eat your soul if they know your parents named you Bob.

I tried Crusader's Edge. Didn't help because the game decided to have Octavia and Tristian go full retard. My character was an Alchemist. I built Octavia to be a mage, not a fighter. Tristian was the only one with crusader edge. The game also throws 6 soul stealers after losing half the party. And for some reason, everyone kept missing. You do the math.

I had to reload a save from two hours prior and replace Octavia and Reg with Harrim and Jahael and nominated those two. It went better, but it was still bullshit because I had to undo all of that progress and bring a tailored party, all because of some bullshit cinematic encounter where three party members had to have their little one on one duel with a demon (because fuck casters, am I right?) followed by a gank of 6 demons.

It probably worked better on the tabletop, but in a CRPG? Complete tedium and horseshit.

That encounter was traumatic the first time I experienced it. Linzi, the character I wanted to disappoint the least ate a crit and exploded into bloody chunks before my eyes. I found it a bit railroaded, sure, but it was an intense moment. I can't pretend I was happy, but games like this aren't supposed to be fun and fair all the time. Sometimes they have to suck and be no fun to give tension to the encounters and meaning to your triumphs. You'd feel safe if there was a way of predicting and preventing everything that could happen to you. You'd relax and then you'd get bored.

Vordakai's tomb is no joke the first time and like you I went in with no supplies and pushed forward relentlessly, eventually dying to the last man. In later playthroughs I realized that you can easily clear the thing by bringing 12 rations along and camping twice, or by just walking out the door at any time. Yeah it closes behind you in the first fight but (at least for me) it opens again after that. It's a shame actually. That tomb is fucking hard core on your first run. Like something out of an old school DnD module (I've not actually played these but I've watched youtube videos. DnD used to not fuck around). Deadly, terrifying and wholly unfair. I loved it. That bit where you enter the banquet hall and get mobbed by all the zombies is pretty awesome.

I wish I could re experience the menace and intensity of my first run in Vordakai's tomb. As a BBEG he just felt like such a genuine threat, especially as I dragged my heels doing artisan quests and had a time limit on that act before my barony fell. Discovering his story as you explored that place, the back and forth with that bastard raven, it all build him up into something that felt truly frightening. A genuine ancient evil, both iconic in that he's a lich and alien in that he's a Cyclops from a dead empire (that he killed). Until you meet him and he's a chump who you beat in two rounds of course. Flawed masterpiece is my verdict on this game.

Clearing that tomb is a piece of piss on your second attempt. There's nothing that bad in there. By that point nothing is too much of a threat to you when fully buffed, so if you've got rations to rebuff a couple times it's nothing. Ancient soul eaters have crazy AC but aren't undead. Any kind of damage works on them, including necrotic. Characters with decent AB can just kill them with weapons. I play on hard and don't minmax Valerie. I keep her in tower shield specialist, give her a +4 STR belt and a +1 flaming bastard sword, and have her at 16 base STR by this point. Her BAB, gear and weapon focus is enough that she can kill them. Buffed. Bombs kill everything and don't need to hit. Yawn. It's never as intense as the first time. "Who among you do you most fear disappointing?" Any martial. I tend to pick Valerie. "Who is the weakest?" Jubilost. Chop, chop, chop, bomb, bomb, bomb. Dead soul eaters.

True, but they could have done that without your party suddenly becoming a bunch of lemmings.
That's the part I have the most issue with, it just seemed really forced and once you know the gimmick it's really easy to counter as you pointed out. The tomb would have been better without it, really. If you don't know the gimmick you get fucked, but once you know about it it's so easy to counter. It's not clever, its just the being a cunt.
Yeah Vordekai himself is probably the easiest part of the dungeon. I did like him though, I thought he was pretty cool.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I would feel like such a fag if I used those mods on my first run though.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

Why don't you uninstall Kingmaker and play... I don't know... Mass Effect? Divinity: Original Sin? Skyrim Legendary Edition? Anything?

 

[Efe]

You %100 need a mod that doubles or triples map movement speed in both of owlcats games.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Maybe it's because I love the tabletop style map but I think it is fine. I have not played Wrath though.

 

[Efe]

I like the map and the idea of moving pawns over it.
what I dont like is dragging pawns slowly across a wooden table, making an endless grinding sound.

Also for wrath (dont remember km bugs), this is further fucked up by frequently having aforementioned sound effect be stuck on endless loop. It also lasts until you reboot entire game!