Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[mondblut]

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

Why don't you uninstall Kingmaker and play... I don't know... Mass Effect? Divinity: Original Sin? Skyrim Legendary Edition? Anything?

Look, a tool who thinks developers are Always Right and Know Better.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Why don't you install bag of tricks mod? It's got everything from teleporting to faster walking speed to accessing kingdom management anywhere to fixing the ranking up to... well, pretty much everything.

Why don't you uninstall Kingmaker and play... I don't know... Mass Effect? Divinity: Original Sin? Skyrim Legendary Edition? Anything?

Pathfinder Kingmaker falls under Anything.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Look, a tool who thinks developers are Always Right and Know Better.

When the lead designer describes the Kingdom Management as "one of 3 pillars on which Kingmaker stands" - then yes. You take it or you leave it.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Look, a tool who thinks developers are Always Right and Know Better.

When the lead designer describes the Kingdom Management as "one of 3 pillars on which Kingmaker stands" - then yes. You take it or you leave it.

That doesn't make it less poorly designed. There is always room for improvement.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I like the map and the idea of moving pawns over it.
what I dont like is dragging pawns slowly across a wooden table, making an endless grinding sound.

Also for wrath (dont remember km bugs), this is further fucked up by frequently having aforementioned sound effect be stuck on endless loop. It also lasts until you reboot entire game!

Yeah, a good chunk of the play time is just waiting for movement to finish. And having to camp every 5 seconds.
I really liked the world map too, but the move speed is way too slow. You kind of need to rush teleporters.

 

[Napalm]

CthuluIsSpy you learn by failing and trying again.

That's okay in individual fights, you get trashed and can immediately reload to start figuring out what you need to change. With kingdom management it may be long time later when you realize that you prioritized wrong things.

Yeah, but actually putting words in the players' mouths and saying "Your character blurts out his name to the soul stealing demon. No, you aren't under mind control, no you don't get to roll for it, no you don't get to be clever and lie to it, shut up"?
That's just being shit DM. He's going to have to better than that if he wants to bamboozle his players.

I actually just ran into this yesterday. When Valerie blurted out her name at first time Raven questions you it was only a minor facepalm, she is pretty straightforward and not familiar with magic tricks. But when Raven questions for second time asking who is the weakest among your party, you tell him to bugger off, and then Tristian shouts out "I am Tristian, follower of Sharenrae blah blah" it became full WTF situation. It is especially annoying because game shows you tip about names being important for certain enemies, so you easily see can it coming but are powerless to prevent it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

That doesn't make it less poorly designed. There is always room for improvement.

I agree. But what you have been advised is "drop the strategic layer to a bare minimum and remove all travel management". Which means "play Kingmaker by not playing Kingmaker". To each his own, but I am against both such approach and the people who promote it. Especially for the 1st playthrough.

With kingdom management it may be long time later when you realize that you prioritized wrong things.

Which is good. Either the lesson will stick for longer, or the game will be dropped. In both cases the player base will be improved.

then Tristian shouts out "I am Tristian, follower of Sharenrae blah blah" it became full WTF situation.

Or you had wrong expectations of Tristian.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

That doesn't make it less poorly designed. There is always room for improvement.

I agree. But what you have been advised is "drop the strategic layer to a bare minimum and remove all travel management". Which means "play Kingmaker by not playing Kingmaker". To each his own, but I am against both such approach and the people who promote it. Especially for the 1st playthrough.

I never suggested removing the travel mechanics though? "Make the movement faster" doesn't mean "remove travel mechanics".
In-game time still passes, its just that you wouldn't have to watch the little pawn take 10 seconds to move a short distance. I would tolerate having to camp a lot often more if I didn't have to watch the pawn slowly move and sit through the camp sequence resolution sequence every time.

At what point did I say to reduce the strategic layer to a bare minimum? You mean give the player back control during the rank up sequence? I don't see how that would negatively impact the strategic layer that much, as your advisors will still be locked in and unable to resolve problems. Its just that 14 days suddenly don't disappear and you aren't assailed with a bunch of events as a consequence.

The pacing of KM's strategic layer actually reminded of me XCOM 2's, where that game's idea of a complex strategic layer is to constantly interrupt you by having tasks take a long time and then hit you with something you have to do right now, forcing you to drop everything and run around the map like a headless chicken.
I didn't find it deep or particularly strategic, just really annoying.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Or you had wrong expectations of Tristian.

Yes, how dare we expect the cleric (and later we learn he's a

Spoiler

deva

) to not be an absolute cretin and fall for obvious demonic tricks.

 

[Efe]

speeding up map movement also speeds up time so nothing changes balance wise.

mod I used specifically had an option for this behavior and another clearly titled as "cheat" which only sped up movement without time.
we are clearly not recommending the latter here

 

[mondblut]

Look, a tool who thinks developers are Always Right and Know Better.

When the lead designer describes the Kingdom Management as "one of 3 pillars on which Kingmaker stands" - then yes.

Hear that?

...

That's the sound of me giving a fuck.

You take it or you leave it.

Or what?

By the way, I made Ekun white. Cope, seethe, dilate.

 

[mondblut]

I don't see how that would negatively impact the strategic layer that much, as your advisors will still be locked in and unable to resolve problems. Its just that 14 days suddenly don't disappear and you aren't assailed with a bunch of events as a consequence.

Funny how they are capable of resolving problems while being stuck with you in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere for the entire time. Kingdom management my ass, lol.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

By the way, I made Ekun white

Bro what the hell, I expected better of you.
Shameful display, not providing a link.

 

[mondblut]

By the way, I made Ekun white

Bro what the hell, I expected better of you.
Shameful display, not providing a link.

Visual Adjustments mod ftw.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I don't see how that would negatively impact the strategic layer that much, as your advisors will still be locked in and unable to resolve problems. Its just that 14 days suddenly don't disappear and you aren't assailed with a bunch of events as a consequence.

Funny how they are capable of resolving problems while being stuck with you in a dungeon in the middle of nowhere for the entire time. Kingdom management my ass, lol.

Yeah I noticed that and it's weird as hell.
My favorite part is where I have an advisor in my party and he wants to talk to me about the kingdom. Like, motherfucker I'm right here, do we have to go all the back to the capital?

The advisor system needed the most refinement, really. Apparently in Wrath they just dropped advisors completely, and if so it was probably for the best because of how poorly done that mechanic was.
A pity though because I liked the idea of assigning advisors, just not how Owlcat did it.

 

[mondblut]

Yeah I noticed that and it's weird as hell.
My favorite part is where I have an advisor in my party and he wants to talk to me about the kingdom. Like, motherfucker I'm right here, do we have to go all the back to the capital?

The least stoopid they could have done is to remove assigned advisors from the pool of available party members. Or to stick to non-party advisors like Storyteller.

 

[Bloodeyes]

By the way, I made Ekun white. Cope, seethe, dilate.

That sounds needlessly jarring. I mean his voice is African as fuck and his name is Ekundayo. He's described by in game text as "a black skinned man". Why not just tell him to leave or ignore him until his couple of quests if you need the XP?

The portrait you found for him is pretty dope though. Is it from a pack or did you hunt it down yourself? Still, he must seem like a total wigger in your game.

Ekun bothers me a bit too. It's not his blackness, that's adequately explained by his backstory and doesn't come across as jarring. It's that he's a Mary Sue. He has stats that are impossible to achieve with a human PC because the politically correct devs wanted to get good stats for a ranger without dumping INT or CHA on a black character. He's also perfect and all women love him on sight, and he gets OP gear just handed to him right after you get him. It isn't coincidental that a black character gets such favorable treatment. It's political correctness. I've spared Hargulka just to make him leave before.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Wait really? He gets impossible stats? I did notice that he was really combat effective, but I just thought that Rangers were OP in this game.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

That sounds needlessly jarring. I mean his voice is African as fuck and his name is Ekundayo. He's described by in game text as "a black skinned man". Why not just tell him to leave or ignore him until his couple of quests if you need the XP?

Because we can.

 

[mondblut]

That sounds needlessly jarring. I mean his voice is African as fuck and his name is Ekundayo. He's described by in game text as "a black skinned man".

Ekun bothers me a bit too. It's not his blackness, that's adequately explained by his backstory and doesn't come across as jarring. It's that he's a Mary Sue. He has stats that are impossible to achieve with a human PC because the politically correct devs wanted to get good stats for a ranger without dumping INT or CHA on a black character. He's also perfect and all women love him on sight, and he gets OP gear just handed to him right after you get him. It isn't coincidental that a black character gets such favorable treatment. It's political correctness. I've spared Hargulka just to make him leave before.

Yeah, and I made him white just because I could

Why not just tell him to leave or ignore him until his couple of quests if you need the XP?

Why would I miss out on content or exclude a useful meat puppet? I mean, I even readded that annoying midget from prologue back into my party. Once you realize you are not beholden to the limit of 6 (or even 12, for all inconveniences of having no extra formation slots), the sky is the limit.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Wait really? He gets impossible stats? I did notice that he was really combat effective, but I just thought that Rangers were OP in this game.

Yeah. Make his build as a PC. You run out of points. It's the combination of hurricane bow and an oversized longbow that makes him OP. He's just been given the perfect item for his class (the oversized acidic bow) and another item that negates its penalty (the bracers of archery). Can't have the Mary Sue having any drawbacks to his epic abilities now can we?

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Huh, well that's annoying.
Then again, they do have a stronk wamen who needs no man in the form of Amiri, so go figure that Owlcat is a bit woke.
It must be a modern RPG thing.

 

[Efe]

nah the barb's wokeness is all paizo
there are also stuff like offering her to be ogre's wife etc that makes you thnk not everyone on team is inhaling woke fumes.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Huh, well that's annoying.
Then again, they do have a stronk wamen who needs no man in the form of Amiri, so go figure that Owlcat is a bit woke.
It must be a modern RPG thing.

They're more than a bit woke. WOTR is the wokest game ever made. By a country mile. It's basically Cuckold Simulator only without the irony. And really good combat and character creation. It's not worth it. Play the first game then move on to other franchises. That being said, I came to really like Amiri. Yeah she's there to be a strong woman, but she's pretty well written and voice acted, and with a respec into invulnerable rager and the cord of stubborn fury becomes an excellent tank. She definitely charmed me, despite my antifeminist leanings.

I personally don't care for

- Regongar (gross character with gratingly corny camp dialogue)
- The Tiefling sisters (Seem like the kind of special snowflake characters 5e players like making)
- Ekundayo (Mary Sue)
- Tristian (Crap without a respec. Not useless just not good.)

But I love the rest of them. Harrim is probably my favorite.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Yeah, Reg is a little out there. Didn't like him too much. He feels like he's been written by someone who wants to make a macho character but doesn't know how, so he just makes a sleazy violent dickhead.
His questline is crap too because of how shallow it is. With literally any other character you have some level of input in the outcome, but with Octavia and Reg's you have one choice and that's it. No talking Reg out of going angry murder hobo, no talking Octavia out of being an arsonist which literally comes out of nowhere, nothing.
Tristian isn't bad, but he's boring (he's literally just a heal bot and his questline makes him even more of a heal bot by making him blind and therefore even more shit at fighting) and his dialogue isn't great. He and Reg have some pretty cringe dialogue.
I found Linzi to be annoying too.

Harrim is pretty neat though. I didn't like him at first because of his sleepy voice acting and fatalism, but his story arc is solid. Jahael has an interesting questline too, and Nok-Nok is just fun.
Jubi has a fun questline as well and it actually has a pretty big impact later on in the game, which is a nice touch.