Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[CthuluIsSpy]

Nok-Nok is made of wet tissue paper and next to useless on higher difficulties. You can work on his defenses, but it will take many levels to make him decent.

I play on hard, the second highest difficulty. He's brokenly OP so long as you don't try to tank with him. The +4 DEX and CON belt he's given gets him to 16 CON. Toughness gets him acceptable HP. He never gets tank AC but he gets enough to get by. I usually have +5 bracers of armour available by the time I get him, or at least +4. Giving him these, Mother's care and Mother's Warmth, the belt and the feat makes him pretty much flawless out of the box. His only real weakness is his shit will save, but I guess that's still a weakness so maybe he's less of a Sue than Ekun.

No light armor? Is it so that he gets AC from dex?

Yeah his AC is lower in leather armour. Take it off and put bracers on him, it's actually a hindrance to him to wear armour at all.

Huh, can he wear robes? Having an empty chest slot just feels wrong to me.
With robes you get passive bonuses at least.

I mean I think he looks great in the top hat and the bogeyman's robe.

Wait, you can get those? Are they a rare drop from Bogeymen?
Where else do those things spawn anyway? I've only seen them during Ancient Curse.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Nok-Nok is made of wet tissue paper and next to useless on higher difficulties. You can work on his defenses, but it will take many levels to make him decent.

I play on hard, the second highest difficulty. He's brokenly OP so long as you don't try to tank with him. The +4 DEX and CON belt he's given gets him to 16 CON. Toughness gets him acceptable HP. He never gets tank AC but he gets enough to get by. I usually have +5 bracers of armour available by the time I get him, or at least +4. Giving him these, Mother's care and Mother's Warmth, the belt and the feat makes him pretty much flawless out of the box. His only real weakness is his shit will save, but I guess that's still a weakness so maybe he's less of a Sue than Ekun.

No light armor? Is it so that he gets AC from dex?

Yeah his AC is lower in leather armour. Take it off and put bracers on him, it's actually a hindrance to him to wear armour at all.

Huh, can he wear robes? Having an empty chest slot just feels wrong to me.
With robes you get passive bonuses at least.

I mean I think he looks great in the top hat and the bogeyman's robe.

Wait, you can get those? Are they a rare drop from Bogeymen?
Where else do those things spawn anyway? I've only seen them during Ancient Curse.

The tenebrous depths. The DLC dungeon. IIRC you need to pass a perception check to find them, but I always seem to find them. But then almost everyone trains perception every level in my party, even those who are bad at it like Valerie.

They aren't great robes. They give something like a DC 14 chance to make an enemy shaken on hit, and make shaken enemies frightened on hit. So they make trash mobs run away. It's not the best. They just look really cool on Nok Nok when combined with the hat you get for killing Crag Linnorm. You can also just use visual adjustments to make him look how you want.

It doesn't bother me him not having armour on. It makes him weaker so why should he?

 

[Haplo]

You recommend not to tank with him - I wonder how you're gonna avoid that on a melee character with no reach?
Furthermore his pathetic reach (particularly with Reduce Person) means he's usually only attacking once per round.
Not to mention some enemies are immune to sneaks.
Amiri is a much stronger character in practice.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

He has stats that are impossible to achieve with a human PC because the politically correct devs wanted to get good stats for a ranger without dumping INT or CHA on a black character.

Valerie also has illegal stats and she gets a boost to all of them later on.

They gave her a single, non functional point of CHA above what I can get with a PC (this is actually a respec at +25 stats, but that's what the player can get). Because, as you stated, she's supposed to be beautiful. There are story reasons (as you've noted) behind the extra point and her default stats don't make her particularly strong.

The extra point is so useless I'm more than happy to let it go and respec her with +25 stats when I play. A martial character with 14 STR and no class feature like weapon training to compensate is a bit too "balanced" for my taste, despite having one more point than a PC can achieve (+27 stats). So I stat her better (but not optimally, I like her to feel like a character, not just a build).

Too smart. Valerie is a INT 9 character. Also, Charisma is not necessarily beauty. Charisma is a mental stat more along the lines of "social skill and talent."

 

[Bloodeyes]

He has stats that are impossible to achieve with a human PC because the politically correct devs wanted to get good stats for a ranger without dumping INT or CHA on a black character.

Valerie also has illegal stats and she gets a boost to all of them later on.

They gave her a single, non functional point of CHA above what I can get with a PC (this is actually a respec at +25 stats, but that's what the player can get). Because, as you stated, she's supposed to be beautiful. There are story reasons (as you've noted) behind the extra point and her default stats don't make her particularly strong.

The extra point is so useless I'm more than happy to let it go and respec her with +25 stats when I play. A martial character with 14 STR and no class feature like weapon training to compensate is a bit too "balanced" for my taste, despite having one more point than a PC can achieve (+27 stats). So I stat her better (but not optimally, I like her to feel like a character, not just a build).

Too smart. Valerie is a INT 9 character. Also, Charisma is not necessarily beauty. Charisma is a mental stat more along the lines of "social skill and talent."

I was doing that from memory. Guess I screwed that up. Must be WIS 10 INT 9? Same number of points to buy which is what I was responding to there.

Agreed that CHA isn't necessarily looks. CHA for the Sorceror is even more than social skills and talent, it's force of personality. How alpha you are. It's taken beyond personality and charm into a metaphysical concept akin to Maori "mana".

I think Val has too much CHA, but not an unreasonable amount and there's at least logic behind that beyond "We can't dump stats on this character that would be racist" like with Ekundayo.

I give her 7 INT because she's a stupid bitch, 8 WIS because her foolish ass is going to end up in whatever Pathfinder's version of the Wall of Souls is, and 12 CHA because she's (in lore) pretty but not really that charming when you get to know her. I actually still like her character, despite her not being particularly likeable.

 

[Yosharian]

Anyone in melee range has to tank, the AI is not going to ignore your squishy rogue

 

[Bloodeyes]

You recommend not to tank with him - I wonder how you're gonna avoid that on a melee character with no reach?
Furthermore his pathetic reach (particularly with Reduce Person) means he's usually only attacking once per round.

Delay his turn, then attack a flanked enemy. Give him what AC you can but don't try to draw agro with him. I don't consider inevitably drawing aggro sometimes to be tanking. Even my backliners Linzi and Jubilost draw agro at times. The thing is they aren't trying to. They aren't tanking. There's a difference between losing initiative and getting rushed and running into the thick of things to take hits for the party. The latter is tanking, the former happens to all characters. He'll get hit a couple times when this happens but will survive and kill that enemy, then go back to doing what he does best, stealing tankier characters kills, critting multiple times a round and triggering outflank. That's not what I'm gonna do, it's what I've been doing with Nok Nok.

I'd consider a character a tank if they're supposed to draw aggro. So Harrim's not a tank even though he gets attacked semi-frequently. Valerie is an AC tank. Amiri is an HP tank once she levels up a bit (and a DR tank as well with a respec to rager). Regongar is a mirror image and displacement tank. Animal companions and summons can be tanks. If I tried to draw aggro with him he'd die pretty quick, but so would most of them. It's not their role. I don't bitch that he can't heal either. He's a damage dealer. That's why you give him what AC you can. +2 ring and amulet, +4 DEX belt and +5 bracers are always available to me when I get him, then he very soon gets +4 DEX and CON. I also cast blur on every melee character with Jubilost. Until he gets the CON belt bear's endurance covers this. It's not much of a wait. With shield spell (which everyone gets buffed with in my party, except shield users I also cast blur on every melee character with Jubilost and blur (on every melee character from Jubilost) everyone gets by. Tank AC is only needed for tanks.

Draw agro with Valerie. Then send Nok-Nok in. Rogues aren't tanks. I'm sure someone could make a rogue into a tank but that's not what their class naturally does. Some enemies are immune to sneak attacks yes, but with all his attacks and keen weapons he kills them anyway. Giving him combat reflexes and outflank, and later the opportunist rogue talent makes him even more of a dirty kill stealing bastard than he already is. Enemies just explode whenever someone hits them, if Nok-Nok is nearby. Also I play with CoTW and cast the long arm buff on him with Jubilost. That isn't needed but it's fun to do.

I also use Amiri in the "goes second to deal damage" slot in my party, switching out with Jaethal when I feel like it. But Nok Nok fills this role very, very well.

My party almost always consists of front line tanks to take hits (I prefer Val and Amiri because I like them as characters)

Second line damage dealers. I like enlarged Harrim for this as well as my main is normally in this role (enlarged or long armed).

Reach helps here but isn't actually needed. It's the benefit of playing harder fights in turn based. You can choose who goes first more easily, and where you put them. You get a sense for where the AI will go on their turn so you stand the damage dealer on the left instead of the right (for example), because the right would draw aggro. Nok Nok gets better at this as his build progresses, but he can do it immediately. Rogues are meant to be played sneaky, not stand in front. I'm sure cleverer players than me stand their rogue in front to great effect, but that's the beauty of this system. It allows for novel, ideosyncratic solutions. But it's not the obvious way to use Nok-Nok. If you wanted reach on him in the unmodded game you could still enlarge him. He'd take a small hit to his DEX but he has so much you'd barely notice. Not needed though, with sensible play. I don't like reduce person.

Back line support (Linzi and Jubilost). Other characters can fill these roles.

Not to mention some enemies are immune to sneaks.

Immunities? Seriously? "some enemies" are immune to necromancy, some enemies are immune to mind effecting. Some enemies are COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO MAGIC. Except alchemists every class has their cryptonite. A sneak attack on an enemy that is immune to precision damage is still an attack. Nok Nok will struggle against an enemy immune to precision damage AND critical hits, this is true. Otherwise he'll trigger outflank and kill them.

Amiri is a much stronger character in practice.

Either you're using Nok Nok wrong or I'm using Amiri wrong. Don't get me wrong, she's fine. But 16 STR isn't amazing for a barbarian. She's solid but not exactly a powerhouse. That coupled with being unable to wear a STR belt unless you want to put up with fatigue from raging limits her damage potential a bit. She's good but not great. I do use her sword unlike most which nerfs her somewhat. It's roleplaying.

 

[Yosharian]

You must be playing a different game to me because any melee range character is going to get attacked regardless of whether or not they consider themselves to be a tank. 'aggro' is a relative term

 

[Bloodeyes]

You must be playing a different game to me because any melee range character is going to get attacked regardless of whether or not they consider themselves to be a tank. 'aggro' is a relative term

Tank goes first, provoking enemies to attack them. Every time? No. You can't make it happen every time. But you give them the best chance you can with their initiative. Damage dealer goes second. Once an enemy has started attacking one character they seldom switch to attacking another unless you do something to make them. What's hard to understand about that?

Foolproof? Of course not. Every character gets attacked, melee or otherwise. You give them what AC and HP you can, but it's not essential to have tank AC to melee. Those with moderate AC don't try to get attacked. They do get attacked, but you minimize it with turn order and placement on the battlefield. The big thing is not sending them out front alone, or not standing on the side of the tank that has enemies that haven't attacked anyone yet. Tanks need to be capable of getting attacked by all the enemies at once and have a majority of enemies hitting at low % enough that they can (with good inititative and good luck), run into the middle of all the enemies provoking as many to attack them as they can. More on them, fewer in you back lines. Fewer in your back lines, the faster they die. A good tank is safe against a group. You don't have to worry about them, it's their job.

A tank has so much AC that they try to provoke enemies to attack them to take the heat off others. Sometimes it works for all the enemies, usually it's only a few but as long as more than 1 is attacking them they've brought the odds in your favour. Because they have so much AC (Or DR, or concealment effects or a combination of these) that they are very low probability of getting hit. 5% for an AC tank against trash mobs. Not the best against hard hitters. Usually becomes like 50% against very hard hitters. Not ideal, so they need some CON too, and to be able to kill so they don't have to weather that too long. Ranged healing helps them live when this happens, but is only need for the toughest foes like things much higher level. CON/DR tanks who get hit but can take it are better for the hard hitters, but concealment + AC tanks are the best of all. Sword saint. But there isn't a Sword Saint companion.

Any that don't go for them may rush your second and back lines, but they'll only get one attack usually unless they're a leopard or something (which do shit all damage anyway). Your other 4 then get a full attack on them. Two or three these are melee damage dealers with outflank. Support classes like cleric who can still kill. Everyone has outflank and improved critical if they melee, at least in my party. Combat reflexes if possible as well. The tanks then kill on their turn, then the damage dealers come in and attack those left attacking them. It goes this way more often than not. Some enemies (like boggards) have different AI. They'll ignore your lines and try to run through them, usually going for Jubilost or Linzi or my glass cannon main. This is good because the idiots always die to attacks of opportunity doing this.

Everyone should have what AC they can (or concealment) but I'd not bother trying to get default Jaethal down to a 5% chance to get hit, or Harrim. So not tanking with them is best. Giving them reach by enlarging them has the benefit of letting them attack the tanks already engaged enemy from a charge. But with haste it doesn't really matter. Once they're going for the tank they go for them almost exclusively, and once they've got two characters attacking them they're dead soon anyway.

It seems disingenuous and strange to me to hear such experienced players professing ignorance of how to use tanks, or questioning the existence of the role. It's pretty rudimentary stuff. No you can't psychically compel all enemies to go for one character, but it's pretty damn easy to get a couple characters to draw most of the agro.

 

[Haplo]

This is not a MMO.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Doesn't have to be an MMO for tanking to work. Don't worry, study the above instructional guide and practice. It won't take you long to get the hang of using turn order and tactics. Tanks are only one role you know, but they're a pretty important one. They protect your support casters and ranged characters so you should master their use. Just remember the one simple rule "Enemies usually attack the guy closest to them" and put the hardiest guy closest. It may take tens of minutes of practice but you'll get the hang of it.

But what do you do when they run past? Don't worry, your characters know what to do and can attack of opportunity without your input. You just work on standing the tough guy between the bad guys and the squishier guys.

 

[Efe]

afaik if they miss a lot they try to switch targets so you will get those stray hits

 

[LannTheStupid]

You recommend not to tank with him - I wonder how you're gonna avoid that on a melee character with no reach?

You max Mobility and if anyone attacks him, enable Acrobatics and move him away from the threat range. With enough DEX he can pass the check that negates AoO. Then disable Acrobatics so his movement speed is normal and attack again.

It is somewhat micro intensive, but I like my rogues. Especially the ones that work like a delete button.

 

[Bloodeyes]

afaik if they miss a lot they try to switch targets so you will get those stray hits

To be clear I'm not advocating sending targets up front who get hit 100% of the time and die in one hit. You need to be able to survive a single enemy solo for at least a full round attack + 1 attack for when shit goes wrong. They shouldn't live beyond 2 rounds anyway because you're not just standing there. On your turn you kill them.

Enemies fighting two characters for more than 1 round is definitely not a problem that often. The tank probably took most of their health in the charge. They aren't just tanks. The damage guy most likely finished them. If he didn't they're so close to dead they only have one round left in this world. They probably can't kill your rogue in one round unless they're bad ass and focused on you 100%. You do still have 24 base DEX, a ring of deflection, an amulet of natural armour, shield spell, bracers of armour, a DEX and CON belt (or equivalent buffs) and blur on. If they are trash mobs it's enough to run around in real time not microing and be ok.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

This is an excellent game but I had trouble to finish it - it is just too long for its own good.

.

I've spent a significant amount of time in this game and am yet to finish it. I want to move on from it now so I'm forcing myself to, but I know what you mean. I've often wondered why I abandon my playthroughs around level 13 - 14 to start again and I think what it comes down to is reinforcement.

In operant conditioning the removal of reinforcement is called extinction, and the end goal of extinction is the cessation of a given behaviour. In RPGs the most potent reinforcer is character progression - levelling up. Because of how much Kingmaker's level progression slows down after level 9 you're playing for days after that without levelling up at all. So you experience extinction of your desire to continue that playthrough. But the game is still awesome, so you return to the early game, starting a cool new build. Then you're levelling again, getting that reinforcement again.

I guess I should say "I", rather than "you" here, but I've heard from a lot of other people who have put a lot of time into this game and never finished it and I think this is why.

It also has to do with the plot of the game. Around level 14 you run into the barbarian invasion, which just seems tacked on. The areas get big, lose complexity, and are filled with trash mobs for that whole act. Even the whole Vordekai episode felt like a forced interlude. It just has a much much better dungeon. The game would have been a more cohesive experience without those two chapters.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

To be clear I'm not advocating sending targets up front who get hit 100% of the time

My barbarian usually ends up this way anyway. Gramercy he can hold up.

 

[Yosharian]

Maybe Bloodeyes' tank gets hit a lot, that's why his Nok-Nok is able to get away without getting targeted

 

[Bloodeyes]

To be clear I'm not advocating sending targets up front who get hit 100% of the time

My barbarian usually ends up this way anyway. Gramercy he can hold up.

Is your barb a reckless stance invulnerable rager? Because that's different. There's a tank who is supposed to get hit for sure. Buffed with stoneskin and empowered false life greater. Toughness, 18 base CON and all three ranks of increased DR. That's what I do with my Amiri respec. Pretty crap in the early game but then just gets better and better. I still give her what AC I can but her AC is never enough to matter against hard hitters. She doesn't get hit every time she's attacked but stuff isn't around long enough to damage her much anyway. Rarely need to heal her because temporary HP and DR soak most things.

Maybe Bloodeyes' tank gets hit a lot, that's why his Nok-Nok is able to get away without getting targeted

Lol no. My usual AC tank is Valerie with a respec to

STR: 14 (+2 on levels)
DEX: 19 (+3 on levels)
CON: 16
INT: 7
WIS: 9
CHA: 12

Not claiming these stats are optimal. I like her to still feel like Valerie, not just a build. Still a tower shield specialist. Weapon finesse and an Estoc for her weapon. Belt of physical flow/perfection. DEX based AB, STR based damage. Gets gear priority for best AC items, even ahead of my main. Dodge, armour focus, shield focus help a bit too. She doesn't start getting hit until quite late in the game, by which time Amiri the CON/DR tank can take over her duties against the hard hitters. Early/mid game she's basically untouchable except against things too high level for us. Even there she stays up long enough for the damage dealers reduce the enemy's hit probability to 0 by killing them.

Advanced weapon and armor training changes this a bit. My current tank is her as a standard fighter as it's much better. AC is comparable but accuracy is much better. Heavy armour specialization, fighter's finesse + Trained grace. She's still only level 10 but she's only getting hit on 20s by most enemies, just like the tower shield specialist, but she's a better killer. Very accurate thanks to fighter BAB and weapon training + the usual buffs for this level (good hope, inspire courage, haste). Wearing belt of physical might +4 RN, but belt of physical flow will be better for her once that drops. Still takes care of business and rarely gets hit.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Is your barb a reckless stance invulnerable rager?

None of that yeehaw. Just a regular barbarian

 

[Yosharian]

'CON/DR tank' =D

 

[LannTheStupid]

There's a tank who is supposed to get hit for sure.

What difficulty are you playing on?

 

[Bloodeyes]

There's a tank who is supposed to get hit for sure.

What difficulty are you playing on?

Hard. Amiri kills fast enough she can take hits. Of course you don't want her getting beaten up but when stuff starts to hit hard enough that Val's AC stops mattering it's better her than anyone else. So put her in harm's way so others don't have to be.

 

[Bloodeyes]

'CON/DR tank' =D

You really are one of the most consistently toxic people I've interacted with on the Codex. I don't think I've ever had a pleasant discussion with you. Taking you off ignore was a mistake that I shall rectify presently.

 

[Yosharian]

Lmao!

 

[LannTheStupid]

Taking you off ignore was a mistake that I shall rectify presently.

As a human you should have enough brain power to ignore people without software crutches.

Hard. Amiri kills fast enough she can take hits. Of course you don't want her getting beaten up but when stuff starts to hit hard enough that Val's AC stops mattering it's better her than anyone else. So put her in harm's way so others don't have to be.

So you are using a CON/DR tank as a meatshield who can hit things in opposite to summons and pets. It might be viable, but wouldn't Jaethal be better for that? She does not need resurrection after death.