Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Yosharian]

I'm toxic apparently =(

 

[Bloodeyes]

Taking you off ignore was a mistake that I shall rectify presently.

As a human you should have enough brain power to ignore people without software crutches.

Hard. Amiri kills fast enough she can take hits. Of course you don't want her getting beaten up but when stuff starts to hit hard enough that Val's AC stops mattering it's better her than anyone else. So put her in harm's way so others don't have to be.

So you are using a CON/DR tank as a meatshield who can hit things in opposite to summons and pets. It might be viable, but wouldn't Jaethal be better for that? She does not need resurrection after death.

Jaethal is my alternate for this role. I think Amiri does better the way I build her. Better HD and 18 CON. In the early game you're right, Jaethal is better when Amiri is still going down. But she doesn't go down much later. No-one does. I think my use of turn based mode may account for this.

My current party are level 11, most of the way through the Womb of Lamashtu. I'm well past the point where Amiri (or anyone) dying is a likely outcome in a given encounter. Bad luck can happen, but it usually doesn't. Summons and pets do work in this role, but I find them a nuisance and don't need them, except for very tough encounters.

An example of this would be Crag Linnorm, who I fight at level 8. At this level Amiri is not yet capable of living long enough against him to stand in front. So summons and Ekun's wolf do it (the wolf usually dies). Amiri would die if I sent her into that and it costs 5k for a diamond or 6k for a scroll to bring her back. For everything else it works just fine. Between buffs and her rager abilities she can soak a lot of hits. Later on when Crag Linnorms show up as regular enemies in the Tenebrous Depths Amiri and Valerie stand in front. Pets are annoying in CoTW, much weaker than in the unmodded game.

In my current run (I'm tabbed out of the game RN), Valerie tanked a full round attack from the giant Owlbear boss at the capital. Unfortunately I underestimated it's AB and every attack hit. I should have sent Amiri first, she'd have done better there. It didn't matter, because the party had all gathered round and Nok Nok was with them. He got the final hit in on an already near death boss. There was no round 3, and the Owlbear never got its turn on round 2, it was dead. So Val only needed to live though one round of that. She had a bit under half health left. Not ideal but most enemies don't have as much AB. Usually not all attacks will hit from even tough enemies. For most enemies none of this is needed. I just run around with RT on, everyone buffed up, not even controlling what they do. Even the least tanky ones usually aren't getting hit by this point.

The party are currently level 11 and most of the way through the Womb of Lamshtu. Her and Valerie have been there, taking the worst of the damage for the party. This is one of the worst places for "tanking" as groups of enemies spawn in around you. But I use turn based against any enemy worth a damn, so it's still possible to have them directly engage with most of them. Of course sometimes, randomly, every enemy will decide to target Linzi or my main (an ecclesitheiurge with 12 CON and only 14 DEX) and that can't really be stopped. At least when that happens these enemies are putting themselves in the middle of a party who all have outflank and improved critical. They aren't there for long. Most of the time they just go for whoever I put closest to them. Despite the scoffing of this forum this continues to work for me, as it has been doing.

Edit: here's a screen of my current battle. We lost initiative, but the spiders went for Valerie because she's in front. Except the doomspider who appears to be targeting my main. He's going to die first, he's not going to get to attack my main. As the fight continues I will improve their positioning, putting my main behind Amiri and Valerie. But this is just how things turned out before round 1:

Now it is gone. Everyone except Amiri missed it, but Amiri is buffed with true seeing. All remaining enemies are targeting Valerie. Any that didn't would be killed first. What other name is there for what she's doing in this image than tanking? Does it have to be an MMO for this to happen? But it's happening! Valerie is doing her job of tanking.

 

[Efe]

why the hell would you ignore wife scholar

 

[Nano]

I'm toxic apparently =(

^ Says the guy who has 130 people in his ignore list.

 

[kangaxx]

Just a side note for the people flexing about which difficulty they played on. Isn't the game balanced around the core rules, thereby making the discussion gay?

 

[Bloodeyes]

Just a side note for the people flexing about which difficulty they played on. Isn't the game balanced around the core rules, thereby making the discussion gay?

I don't think anyone here is flexing the diff they play on. If someone is describing a strategy/build they use then it's very relevant to ask what difficulty they play on as things work differently the harder things get. Some builds just plain stop working. The felt difference isn't too much going from challenging to hard. I hear it's night and day going from hard to unfair. So "what difficulty are you playing on?" is fair to ask. It provides context to what you're saying.

What works for me won't work for an unfair player, as I only play on hard.

Edit: So far as "game balance" goes. I don't think there really is any. Before level 5 the game is hard. I'm sure others will chime in to say it's not but I find levels 1 - 3 an absolute bitch. Level 4 is tolerable, level 5 onwards is getting easy but there is still challenge. After level 8 or so there's only rare moments that are less than a cake walk. It seems a quirk of the system. It's like there's a threshold. Enemies are either piss easy (if you can hit them and they can't hit you) or a very challenging (they can hit you, you can't hit them). Not much "balanced" middle ground really.

 

[kangaxx]

I agree with you up to the point that, for example, people say Nok Nok is useless because on hard he gets blown up too quickly. I agree but the game is balanced around having a million potions and playing on normal rules.

Tbf I'm not saying it's stupid to talk about higher difficulty modes, but built into that has to be the knowledge that the game wasn't really balanced that way.

 

[LannTheStupid]

First, gay discussions could be interesting, too.
Second, what the hell is "balance" in a single player game?
Third:

 

[Bigg Boss]

So playing on Normal is the right way?

 

[Bloodeyes]

I agree with you up to the point that, for example, people say Nok Nok is useless because on hard he gets blown up too quickly. I agree but the game is balanced around having a million potions and playing on normal rules.

Tbf I'm not saying it's stupid to talk about higher difficulty modes, but built into that has to be the knowledge that the game wasn't really balanced that way.

Normal is too easy for me to enjoy. I don't even recommend normal to new players because it lets you get away with too much shit. You can't even die on normal you just get injured and crits don't happen to you. Start on challenging or you'll never have any motivation to learn the systems. If you've played the tabletop (I hadn't) start on hard. Move up when you want to. Not to flex but when you are getting bored. If you haven't needed to heal in like 3 or 4 rests you've probably got the diff too low. Fine if that's what you like but games need some challenge to be fun.

 

[Bigg Boss]

I do think Normal is too easy but this is my first run and I am at Varnhold Vanishing.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I do think Normal is too easy but this is my first run and I am at Varnhold Vanishing.

Well if it suits you then play on normal. I'm not gonna judge you for it. You can customize a diff for yourself. You're not even limited to the default settings. Maybe turn death's door off though? That setting is a wee bit gay.

 

[Cryomancer]

I believe that OwlCat senior game design said somewhere that Normal is the difficulty for novices in the genre and Core for CRPG veterans.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I believe that OwlCat senior game design said somewhere that Normal is the difficulty for novices in the genre and Core for CRPG veterans.

There is no "Core" in Kingmaker though. That's in Wrath. Equivalent in Kingmaker would probably be hard as (based on my limited time with it) Wrath is a harder game.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Ok I am going to turn Death's Door off at least. I do think it is gay. It makes the game a little too easy.

 

[kangaxx]

Sorry, my point isn't that normal is the only way to play the game. I just think that the devs most likely balance it around that, because most people will just leave it at that setting. The game is so customisable in difficulty terms that it would be impossible for them to balance it for every permutation.

To the guy who memed about balance in single player: I do sort of agree, but they obviously have to try and do that, or at least conceal the imbalance. Otherwise the game becomes a joke when you work it out. Again tbf my favourite games of all time such as DE and SS2 suffer from it.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Generally I feel like all games are balanced for normal in the first place. I do appreciate the two thousand different options the game offers me to customize it. People complaining about modern RPG's should play all their games on a Gateway computer back in 1995 because we are getting some good stuff now you just can't be horribly offended if some half orc wants to fuck you. I just leave him out of my party and take his woman with me.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I agree with you up to the point that, for example, people say Nok Nok is useless because on hard he gets blown up too quickly. I agree but the game is balanced around having a million potions and playing on normal rules.

Tbf I'm not saying it's stupid to talk about higher difficulty modes, but built into that has to be the knowledge that the game wasn't really balanced that way.

Normal is too easy for me to enjoy. I don't even recommend normal to new players because it lets you get away with too much shit. You can't even die on normal you just get injured and crits don't happen to you. Start on challenging or you'll never have any motivation to learn the systems. If you've played the tabletop (I hadn't) start on hard. Move up when you want to. Not to flex but when you are getting bored. If you haven't needed to heal in like 3 or 4 rests you've probably got the diff too low. Fine if that's what you like but games need some challenge to be fun.

You can die on Normal, actually. It just has to happen twice.
Death's Door just gives you another life.

 

[Bloodeyes]

I agree with you up to the point that, for example, people say Nok Nok is useless because on hard he gets blown up too quickly. I agree but the game is balanced around having a million potions and playing on normal rules.

Tbf I'm not saying it's stupid to talk about higher difficulty modes, but built into that has to be the knowledge that the game wasn't really balanced that way.

Normal is too easy for me to enjoy. I don't even recommend normal to new players because it lets you get away with too much shit. You can't even die on normal you just get injured and crits don't happen to you. Start on challenging or you'll never have any motivation to learn the systems. If you've played the tabletop (I hadn't) start on hard. Move up when you want to. Not to flex but when you are getting bored. If you haven't needed to heal in like 3 or 4 rests you've probably got the diff too low. Fine if that's what you like but games need some challenge to be fun.

You can die on Normal, actually. It just has to happen twice.
Death's Door just gives you another life.

I know. I think it's splitting hairs though. You have to be nearly trying to die for that to happen.

What I mean about normal for beginners is that it's too forgiving. It's not (to use a dirty word) balanced to where making mistakes actually matters enough for you to learn from them. I started on custom diff. No deaths door, normal crits, weight effected movement speed. But otherwise normal. I wasn't doing myself any favors. I played the game for ages on these settings without really getting better at it. It's only when I moved to challenging that I started to actually feel the need to bother figuring out how shit worked. Not long after that I'd basically mastered that difficulty and needed hard. Not to brag on the Codex, to extend my own enjoyment of the game. Hard wasn't much of a change from challenging. High AC wasn't God mode any more and I started to value CON more. That was the only change I noticed.

There's still plenty I don't know, I'll never learn it all because I'm starting (after thousands of hours) to get bored and feel like new adventures in other games. My current run is my last adventure in Kingmaker for a while. I'd be so fucked off if my government hauled me off to a death camp before I got around to finishing Planescape Torment. I started it 15 ish years ago and I've always meant to get back to it.

 

[Grunker]

I agree with you up to the point that, for example, people say Nok Nok is useless because on hard

I played with Nok Nok on unfair. Game is so piss easy post level 9ish I don't get how people can make these claims

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So is it me, or is it only worth multiclassing into Eldritch knight if you start as a wizard? As Magus you don't really gain anything and as sorc you lose out on bloodlines and get even worse spell progression, so it seems wizard is the most optimal option.

 

[Delterius]

So is it me, or is it only worth multiclassing into Eldritch knight if you start as a wizard?

Eldritch Knight is not that great in general but yeah. It's a hold over from 3E. Most Pathfinder classes like Magus are complete packages. You generally don't multi-class away from those unless you're just accumulating early class features, like multiple stats to AC.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

So is it me, or is it only worth multiclassing into Eldritch knight if you start as a wizard?

Eldritch Knight is not that great in general but yeah. It's a hold over from 3E. Most Pathfinder classes like Magus are complete packages. You generally don't multi-class away from those unless you're just accumulating early class features, like multiple stats to AC.

Oh, well that's disappointing to hear.
I was thinking of creating a sort of dark necromancer lord sort of character who uses high level necromantic spells and can get stuck in, and Eldritch Knight seemed to be the way to go because Magus can't use spells past level 6.
But after doing some digging you lose so much if you go Magus/EK and Bloodline Sorcerer/EK, and I really wanted that bloodline too.

 

[Bloodeyes]

So is it me, or is it only worth multiclassing into Eldritch knight if you start as a wizard? As Magus you don't really gain anything and as sorc you lose out on bloodlines and get even worse spell progression, so it seems wizard is the most optimal option.

Pretty much this yeah. I've played an EK and it was ok. I don't remember my exact level 1 stat array but my high stat was STR, followed by INT and then DEX. I didn't do DC casting at all, just buffs and rays. Didn't even try to use anything with a save. My weapon was a falchion, but a fauchard would have been more optimal. Rays all day and metamagic empower + maximize from feats and items made sure my damage output was good. This was in Beneath the Stolen Lands so I was able to confirm he was the top damage dealer in that party.

Still, it wasn't that fun to play TBH. I had a sword saint in that party too and she just felt so much more legit as a fighter caster. Honestly dude even though my EK wasn't bad at all I wouldn't play it again. Cleric, Sword Saint and Eldritch Scion are better options for a fighter/caster. I like Cleric best for more of a caster and Sword Saint for more of a fighter. There's nothing wrong with a Scion either.

Here he is. A very forgettable build, but he killed the Wicked Chanter and retired alive so that deserved having his picture taken:

Spoiler

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Hm, might just go pure necromancer sorc then.
A pity though, rocking up in heavy armor with a great hammer and blasting gits with finger of death sounded like a fun concept, but if the game doesn't support it the game doesn't support it.

Is the Stolen Lands that good? Apparently it's a rogue-like thing?