KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Cael]

it also dies in the first round if you have two characters using true strike

True strike is just +20, not enough to guarantee a hit. It's HP also isn't 1.

Do I have to explain it? It moves your hit chance from only on a 20 to extremely likely to hit. It also ignores miss chance from concealment. And you certainly will do more than 1 dmg.
But it's OK - you don't have to use true strike and can instead fish for 20s like that other guy itt and then come back complaining that you had to fish for 20s.

No, it's not extremely likely to hit. He has 42 AC, extremely likely means >50% in my book. Even with true strike you need +12 AB to hit that, GL at lvl 2 when the only ones with TS are Jaed & Harrim.

Stop whinning. Now you want guaranteered win on lvl 2. He's DOABLE with preparations.

I have a guaranteed win, you cast resist electricity and win. Easy.

I'd like to see how you guys get to "EXTREMELY LIKELY TO HIT" 42 Ac at lvl 2 though.

You DON'T NEED to kill him on lvl 2. It's completely optional encounter. He's not even here until YOU summon him.

And he goes from:
- You guys just suck! to
- The difficulty, fools! to
- True Strike, True Strike, True Strike! (because all fighters should get True Strike because that is how the game should be played) to
- You don't have to kill him, you know.

 

[Reinhardt]

it also dies in the first round if you have two characters using true strike

True strike is just +20, not enough to guarantee a hit. It's HP also isn't 1.

Do I have to explain it? It moves your hit chance from only on a 20 to extremely likely to hit. It also ignores miss chance from concealment. And you certainly will do more than 1 dmg.
But it's OK - you don't have to use true strike and can instead fish for 20s like that other guy itt and then come back complaining that you had to fish for 20s.

No, it's not extremely likely to hit. He has 42 AC, extremely likely means >50% in my book. Even with true strike you need +12 AB to hit that, GL at lvl 2 when the only ones with TS are Jaed & Harrim.

Stop whinning. Now you want guaranteered win on lvl 2. He's DOABLE with preparations.

I have a guaranteed win, you cast resist electricity and win. Easy.

I'd like to see how you guys get to "EXTREMELY LIKELY TO HIT" 42 Ac at lvl 2 though.

You DON'T NEED to kill him on lvl 2. It's completely optional encounter. He's not even here until YOU summon him.

And he goes from:
- You guys just suck! to
- The difficulty, fools! to
- True Strike, True Strike, True Strike! (because all fighters should get True Strike because that is how the game should be played) to
- You don't have to kill him, you know.

You claiming you are DM. Imagine situation - lvl 2 group found abandoned camp littered with decently equipped corpses, including some magic stuff. There is enough provision left in camp to rest right here and group decided to just do it - rest in the middle of the corpses using their supplies. This group deserve to live?

 

[Parabalus]

it also dies in the first round if you have two characters using true strike

True strike is just +20, not enough to guarantee a hit. It's HP also isn't 1.

Do I have to explain it? It moves your hit chance from only on a 20 to extremely likely to hit. It also ignores miss chance from concealment. And you certainly will do more than 1 dmg.
But it's OK - you don't have to use true strike and can instead fish for 20s like that other guy itt and then come back complaining that you had to fish for 20s.

No, it's not extremely likely to hit. He has 42 AC, extremely likely means >50% in my book. Even with true strike you need +12 AB to hit that, GL at lvl 2 when the only ones with TS are Jaed & Harrim.

Stop whinning. Now you want guaranteered win on lvl 2. He's DOABLE with preparations.

I have a guaranteed win, you cast resist electricity and win. Easy.

I'd like to see how you guys get to "EXTREMELY LIKELY TO HIT" 42 Ac at lvl 2 though.

You DON'T NEED to kill him on lvl 2. It's completely optional encounter. He's not even here until YOU summon him.

And he goes from:
- You guys just suck! to
- The difficulty, fools! to
- True Strike, True Strike, True Strike! (because all fighters should get True Strike because that is how the game should be played) to
- You don't have to kill him, you know.

You claiming you are DM. Imagine situation - lvl 2 group found abandoned camp littered with decently equipped corpses, including some magic stuff. There is enough provision left in camp to rest right here and group decided to just do it - rest in the middle of the corpses using their supplies. This group deserve to live?

Dude, why do keep twisting stuff?

Post your party which made you "extremely likely" to hit his 42 AC at lvl 2.

 

[Reinhardt]

it also dies in the first round if you have two characters using true strike

True strike is just +20, not enough to guarantee a hit. It's HP also isn't 1.

Do I have to explain it? It moves your hit chance from only on a 20 to extremely likely to hit. It also ignores miss chance from concealment. And you certainly will do more than 1 dmg.
But it's OK - you don't have to use true strike and can instead fish for 20s like that other guy itt and then come back complaining that you had to fish for 20s.

No, it's not extremely likely to hit. He has 42 AC, extremely likely means >50% in my book. Even with true strike you need +12 AB to hit that, GL at lvl 2 when the only ones with TS are Jaed & Harrim.

Stop whinning. Now you want guaranteered win on lvl 2. He's DOABLE with preparations.

I have a guaranteed win, you cast resist electricity and win. Easy.

I'd like to see how you guys get to "EXTREMELY LIKELY TO HIT" 42 Ac at lvl 2 though.

You DON'T NEED to kill him on lvl 2. It's completely optional encounter. He's not even here until YOU summon him.

And he goes from:
- You guys just suck! to
- The difficulty, fools! to
- True Strike, True Strike, True Strike! (because all fighters should get True Strike because that is how the game should be played) to
- You don't have to kill him, you know.

You claiming you are DM. Imagine situation - lvl 2 group found abandoned camp littered with decently equipped corpses, including some magic stuff. There is enough provision left in camp to rest right here and group decided to just do it - rest in the middle of the corpses using their supplies. This group deserve to live?

Dude, why do keep twisting stuff?

Post your party which made you "extremely likely" to hit his 42 AC at lvl 2.

I don't charge him at lvl 2 - it's not worth it resource wise. Also i don't charge 3 enraged owlbears at lvl 6. It's not worth it too. I'm not some retard.

 

[Parabalus]

it also dies in the first round if you have two characters using true strike

True strike is just +20, not enough to guarantee a hit. It's HP also isn't 1.

Do I have to explain it? It moves your hit chance from only on a 20 to extremely likely to hit. It also ignores miss chance from concealment. And you certainly will do more than 1 dmg.
But it's OK - you don't have to use true strike and can instead fish for 20s like that other guy itt and then come back complaining that you had to fish for 20s.

No, it's not extremely likely to hit. He has 42 AC, extremely likely means >50% in my book. Even with true strike you need +12 AB to hit that, GL at lvl 2 when the only ones with TS are Jaed & Harrim.

Stop whinning. Now you want guaranteered win on lvl 2. He's DOABLE with preparations.

I have a guaranteed win, you cast resist electricity and win. Easy.

I'd like to see how you guys get to "EXTREMELY LIKELY TO HIT" 42 Ac at lvl 2 though.

You DON'T NEED to kill him on lvl 2. It's completely optional encounter. He's not even here until YOU summon him.

And he goes from:
- You guys just suck! to
- The difficulty, fools! to
- True Strike, True Strike, True Strike! (because all fighters should get True Strike because that is how the game should be played) to
- You don't have to kill him, you know.

You claiming you are DM. Imagine situation - lvl 2 group found abandoned camp littered with decently equipped corpses, including some magic stuff. There is enough provision left in camp to rest right here and group decided to just do it - rest in the middle of the corpses using their supplies. This group deserve to live?

Dude, why do keep twisting stuff?

Post your party which made you "extremely likely" to hit his 42 AC at lvl 2.

I don't charge him at lvl 2 - it's not worth it resource wise. Also i don't charge 3 enraged owlbears at lvl 6. It's not worth it too. I'm not some retard.

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Dunno why you keep responding then, a bunch of people here claim 42 AC is easy to hit at lvl 2/3, I'd like to know how.

 

[Reinhardt]

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Jubilost and negro both spawn only after troll crisis starts. If you finish Stag Lord fast you have few months of free time before it.

 

[Parabalus]

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Jubilost and negro both spawn only after troll crisis starts. If you finish Stag Lord fast you have few months of free time before it.

Yeah, I spent that time ranking up in the capital and going east, did ch1 in 20 days. What's the issue?

 

[Reinhardt]

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Jubilost and negro both spawn only after troll crisis starts. If you finish Stag Lord fast you have few months of free time before it.

Yeah, I spent that time ranking up in the capital and going east, did ch1 in 20 days. What's the issue?

When you get them you are not lvl 6 already.

 

[Cael]

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Dunno why you keep responding then, a bunch of people here claim 42 AC is easy to hit at lvl 2/3, I'd like to know how.

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles. Few people seem to get that, it seems.

The whole notion of 2 people in melee combat = target considered flanked by everyone and their mothers is a game quirk that is openly and obviously exploited by everyone here to hell and back.

 

[Parabalus]

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Jubilost and negro both spawn only after troll crisis starts. If you finish Stag Lord fast you have few months of free time before it.

Yeah, I spent that time ranking up in the capital and going east, did ch1 in 20 days. What's the issue?

When you get them you are not lvl 6 already.

You are talking about the 3 owlbears in the swamp witch area, in the NE area, cut off by an athletics check, where you have to come back to get an artisan item?

I did them on the first visit, I'll check my save when I play what level I was.

You can kill the owlbears easily at that level, spam summons + you have Jubilost to exploit RTAC.

Dunno why you keep responding then, a bunch of people here claim 42 AC is easy to hit at lvl 2/3, I'd like to know how.

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles. Few people seem to get that, it seems.

The whole notion of 2 people in melee combat = target considered flanked by everyone and their mothers is a game quirk that is openly and obviously exploited by everyone here to hell and back.

If you spam summons, they would be flanked without the quirk either way, no?

 

[Reinhardt]

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles.

We are talking about highest difficulty of this game, not some theory. Highest difficulty is, well, highest. You should build properly and use all options available to you - that's the point. Game even tells you that you must optimize your characters. Monsters getting UNFAIR advantages and player should be prepared to counter it.

 

[Lord Andre]

Speaking about True Strike there is one thing that really annoys me. If you roll a natural 1 while True Striking it doesn't matter whether you cleared the AC or not, it's an automatic miss. Now I know what a natural 1 means in D&D but fuck is it rage inducing in such a situation.

I once had True Strike Harrim rush Tartuccio with a slay living scroll for the lolz and it missed cause he rolled a natural 1. In my headcannon, Harrim is still wearing the gnome's skull as a funny hat to this day...

 

[Jasede]

Whoever suggested giving Nok-Nok Vivisectionist levels: you are a GOD! Nok-Nok is now running around with 37 DEX and things die if he vaguely looks at them.

 

[Parabalus]

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles.

We are talking about highest difficulty of this game, not some theory. Highest difficulty is, well, highest. You should build properly and use all options available to you - that's the point. Game even tells you that you must optimize your characters. Monsters getting UNFAIR advantages and player should be prepared to counter it.

So post your party build for "extremely likely" hitting of 42 AC at level 2 already.

 

[Cael]

If you spam summons, they would be flanked without the quirk either way, no?

No. Flanking only occurs when you have two characters on opposite sides of the target, and flanking only applies to those two characters. Everyone else doesn't get the flanking bonus.

It is a quirk of the game to allow everyone else to also gain the flanking bonus, which triggers sneak attacks. Which, of course, gave rise to the number of builds shoehorning in sneak attack at every opportunity.

 

[Reinhardt]

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles.

We are talking about highest difficulty of this game, not some theory. Highest difficulty is, well, highest. You should build properly and use all options available to you - that's the point. Game even tells you that you must optimize your characters. Monsters getting UNFAIR advantages and player should be prepared to counter it.

So post your party build for "extremely likely" hitting of 42 AC at level 2 already.

 

[Cael]

Speaking about True Strike there is one thing that really annoys me. If you roll a natural 1 while True Striking it doesn't matter whether you cleared the AC or not, it's an automatic miss. Now I know what a natural 1 means in D&D but fuck is it rage inducing in such a situation.

I once had True Strike Harrim rush Tartuccio with a slay living scroll for the lolz and it missed cause he rolled a natural 1. In my headcannon, Harrim is still wearing the gnome's skull as a funny hat to this day...

Try rolling a 1 on a Fort save when you are being targeted by a Disintegrate... Luckily, I had a bag handy. Unfortunately, it was a Bag of Holding. To this day, I swear there is still Paladin dirt in that bag...

 

[Parabalus]

If you spam summons, they would be flanked without the quirk either way, no?

No. Flanking only occurs when you have two characters on opposite sides of the target, and flanking only applies to those two characters. Everyone else doesn't get the flanking bonus.

It is a quirk of the game to allow everyone else to also gain the flanking bonus, which triggers sneak attacks. Which, of course, gave rise to the number of builds shoehorning in sneak attack at every opportunity.

If you surround an enemy with summons, everyone melee attacking him will get flanking, even by your definition.

 

[Reinhardt]

Whoever suggested giving Nok-Nok Vivisectionist levels: you are a GOD! Nok-Nok is now running around with 37 DEX and things die if he vaguely looks at them.

Yeah, seeing him murdering everything i want to play as Nok-Nok too.

 

[Cael]

If you spam summons, they would be flanked without the quirk either way, no?

No. Flanking only occurs when you have two characters on opposite sides of the target, and flanking only applies to those two characters. Everyone else doesn't get the flanking bonus.

It is a quirk of the game to allow everyone else to also gain the flanking bonus, which triggers sneak attacks. Which, of course, gave rise to the number of builds shoehorning in sneak attack at every opportunity.

If you surround an enemy with summons, everyone melee attacking him will get flanking, even by your definition.

Yes. But the problem isn't the people in melee with the guy. It is the ranged people with sneak attack.

One of the things about playing Rogues is that it is a high risk option in combat. You are squishy with that d6 HD, and with a 3/4 BAB, you are likely to miss if you play around with things like TWF. Going into melee combat, where you are most likely to get sneak attacks off via flanking, is a dangerous proposition for a glass cannon like you. Plus, any monster with an Int higher than 2 will immediately target you the second you get a sneak attack off at it (massive damage = massive threat), and you are well within whacking range. However, ranged sneak attacks (the "safe" sneak attacks) really don't work very well, unless you somehow got the drop on the target. It makes ranged sneak attacks very situational.

In this game, however, ranged sneak attack is a guarantee so long as you have two guys in melee with the target. That breaks the whole notion of sneak attacks wide open.

 

[Jasede]

Who gives a shit? Since enemies can and will do it to you too, where's the problem? There isn't one.

 

[Parabalus]

There is a difference between a challenging game and a game that you need to exploit bugs, game quirks or only build a certain path in order to overcome obstacles.

We are talking about highest difficulty of this game, not some theory. Highest difficulty is, well, highest. You should build properly and use all options available to you - that's the point. Game even tells you that you must optimize your characters. Monsters getting UNFAIR advantages and player should be prepared to counter it.

So post your party build for "extremely likely" hitting of 42 AC at level 2 already.

Funny, but a cop out. Still waiting for your OP party build.

If you spam summons, they would be flanked without the quirk either way, no?

No. Flanking only occurs when you have two characters on opposite sides of the target, and flanking only applies to those two characters. Everyone else doesn't get the flanking bonus.

It is a quirk of the game to allow everyone else to also gain the flanking bonus, which triggers sneak attacks. Which, of course, gave rise to the number of builds shoehorning in sneak attack at every opportunity.

If you surround an enemy with summons, everyone melee attacking him will get flanking, even by your definition.

Yes. But the problem isn't the people in melee with the guy. It is the ranged people with sneak attack.

One of the things about playing Rogues is that it is a high risk option in combat. You are squishy with that d6 HD, and with a 3/4 BAB, you are likely to miss if you play around with things like TWF. Going into melee combat, where you are most likely to get sneak attacks off via flanking, is a dangerous proposition for a glass cannon like you. Plus, any monster with an Int higher than 2 will immediately target you the second you get a sneak attack off at it (massive damage = massive threat), and you are well within whacking range. However, ranged sneak attacks (the "safe" sneak attacks) really don't work very well, unless you somehow got the drop on the target. It makes ranged sneak attacks very situational.

In this game, however, ranged sneak attack is a guarantee so long as you have two guys in melee with the target. That breaks the whole notion of sneak attacks wide open.

I don't like the ranged SA too much, but it's a loading tip that it works that way so I doubt it's changing.

Melee SA is fine, NWN had a worse implementation where spammable HiPS meant you had full SA while being immune to aggro.

 

[Reinhardt]

Funny, but a cop out. Still waiting for your OP party build

I don't charge him at lvl 2 - it's not worth it resource wise.

 

[Cael]

I don't like the ranged SA too much, but it's a loading tip that it works that way so I doubt it's changing.

Melee SA is fine, NWN had a worse implementation where spammable HiPS meant you had full SA while being immune to aggro.

HiPS wasn't supposed to work that way in the first place. I had always thought it was a bad implementation of the ability more than anything else. It is definitely not a limitation of the engine.

Spoiler

HiPS only allowed you to use the Hide skill while in line of sight of others. It still took a standard action to Hide, and attacking from hiding broke hide. All of this meant you can't attack more than once per Hide, and certainly not entire rounds of sneak attacks.

 

[ArchAngel]

Who gives a shit? Since enemies can and will do it to you too, where's the problem? There isn't one.

They do that every 10th or 20th combat encounter. You do it ever combat encounter.
I agree that flanking and sneak attacks are too good currently. Makes combat much less tactical than it is supposed to be.