KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Parabalus]

Funny, but a cop out. Still waiting for your OP party build

I don't charge him at lvl 2 - it's not worth it resource wise.

So why keep trolling if you can't put out?

I killed him at lvl 3, but couldn't muster the necessary +AB to be "extremely likely" to hit him.

Here people keep claiming 42 AC is no big deal, I'd like to see that.

I don't like the ranged SA too much, but it's a loading tip that it works that way so I doubt it's changing.

Melee SA is fine, NWN had a worse implementation where spammable HiPS meant you had full SA while being immune to aggro.

HiPS wasn't supposed to work that way in the first place. I had always thought it was a bad implementation of the ability more than anything else. It is definitely not a limitation of the engine.

Spoiler

HiPS only allowed you to use the Hide skill while in line of sight of others. It still took a standard action to Hide, and attacking from hiding broke hide. All of this meant you can't attack more than once per Hide, and certainly not entire rounds of sneak attacks.

Made rogues viable, I didn't mind, especially since NWN spammed SA immune enemies.

House rules and all that.

 

[Jasede]

My issue with sneak attacking isn't the flanking - that's a reasonable abstraction, I am fine with the flanking.
My issue would be more along the lines of "Why in the world can I sneak attack undead?"

Considering the amount of undead in this game it really bothers me. Sneak attacking is amazing, no doubt, but this just reeks of whiny children going "B- but muh rogue isn't OP against everything!!!! Fix!!" -- fucking Paizo, and fuck the Pathfinder system.

 

[Parabalus]

My issue with sneak attacking isn't the flanking - that's a reasonable abstraction, I am fine with the flanking.
My issue would be more along the lines of "Why in the world can I sneak attack undead?"

Considering the amount of undead in this game it really bothers me. Sneak attacking is amazing, no doubt, but this just reeks of whiny children going "B- but muh rogue isn't OP against everything!!!! Fix!!" -- fucking Paizo, and fuck the Pathfinder system.

Why would zombies and random undead critters be immune to sneak attack in the first place?

 

[ArchAngel]

My issue with sneak attacking isn't the flanking - that's a reasonable abstraction, I am fine with the flanking.
My issue would be more along the lines of "Why in the world can I sneak attack undead?"

Considering the amount of undead in this game it really bothers me. Sneak attacking is amazing, no doubt, but this just reeks of whiny children going "B- but muh rogue isn't OP against everything!!!! Fix!!" -- fucking Paizo, and fuck the Pathfinder system.

Because undead still have arms, legs and head. Doing serious damage to those still hampers their ability to fight.

 

[Serus]

Who gives a shit? Since enemies can and will do it to you too, where's the problem? There isn't one.

Not a "problem" per se but it makes Rogue classes (and Vivisectionists of curse) beat the crap out of fighters and barbarians because of easy sneak attacks combined with the ability to take combat trick multiple times - they're simply better than pure combat classes for combat in most scenarios.
It's a single player game (and not a Sawyer one) so it's not a big issue, not everything needs to be "balanced" but I wouldn't mind rogues and vivisectionists not beating the crap out of pure-combat classes... in combat.
Of curse there is the argument that a computer game will be always more combat focused than a pnp and offer less options outside of combat thus making rogues less interesting to play than they would be in pnp. To compensate, Owlcat decided to give them better combat ability by changing how sneak attack and how some feats work. But was it the best way to go about it?

 

[Jasede]

Well, traditionally, we used to rule Sneak Attacks being attacks to vital organs. The idea was that the undead don't require hearts, spleens, livers, and therefore are immune to such extra organ-damage. Yes, you can argue your point. But I still don't like it as a game balance choice. I feel that the inability to do much against undead was iconic to Rogues and removing it leads to less depth.

 

[Parabalus]

Who gives a shit? Since enemies can and will do it to you too, where's the problem? There isn't one.

Not a "problem" per se but it makes Rogue classes (and Vivisectionists of curse) beat the crap out of fighters and barbarians because of easy sneak attacks combined with the ability to take combat trick multiple times - they're simply better than pure combat classes for combat in most scenarios.
It's a single player game (and not a Sawyer one) so it's not a big issue, not everything needs to be "balanced" but I wouldn't mind rogues and vivisectionists not beating the crap out of pure-combat classes... in combat.
Of curse there is the argument that a computer game will be always more combat focused than a pnp and offer less options outside of combat thus making rogues less interesting to play than they would be in pnp. To compensate, Owlcat decided to give them better combat ability by changing how sneak attack and how some feats work. But was it the best way to go about it?

What feats did they change?

 

[Lawntoilet]

Well, traditionally, we used to rule Sneak Attacks being attacks to vital organs. The idea was that the undead don't require hearts, spleens, livers, and therefore are immune to such extra organ-damage. Yes, you can argue your point. But I still don't like it as a game balance choice. I feel that the inability to do much against undead was iconic to Rogues and removing it leads to less depth.

 

[Reinhardt]

So why keep trolling if you can't put out?

Me? Trolling? I said from the beginning that i'm fine with some optional encounters requiring returning later. It's you keep asking me for something i didn't said.

 

[vazha]

Any idea what influences the items artisans give to you? Also I wonder why some of them have stopped coming altogether with their gifts (Bokken and Maharaja lady come to mind). Based on my game, if you want a certain item for certain artisan, maybe you shouldnt hire others and milk this one until you get what you want.

 

[Jasede]

Bokken is just bugged. I did his quest and never seen or heard from him again. Tempted to cheat his Masterwork item into my game.

Anyway, Sneak Attack isn't that good anyw-

1 combat round, unbuffed Nok-Nok. He's the only one in my group that can Sneak Attack.

 

[Reinhardt]

The idea was that the undead don't require hearts, spleens, livers, and therefore are immune to such extra organ-damage.

You literally must headshot them to disable. It's already established genre trope.

 

[Parabalus]

So why keep trolling if you can't put out?

Me? Trolling? I said from the beginning that i'm fine with some optional encounters requiring returning later. It's you keep asking me for something i didn't said.

But they don't require returning later. I beat both of the encounters you mentioned.

Any idea what influences the items artisans give to you? Also I wonder why some of them have stopped coming altogether with their gifts (Bokken and Maharaja lady come to mind). Based on my game, if you want a certain item for certain artisan, maybe you shouldnt hire others and milk this one until you get what you want.

They're tied to kingdom rank stats, but dunno how exactly.

 

[vazha]

Bokken is just bugged. I did his quest and never seen or heard from him again. Tempted to cheat his Masterwork item into my game.

Anyway, Sneak Attack isn't that good anyw-

1 combat round, unbuffed Nok-Nok. He's the only one in my group that can Sneak Attack.

Also it seems I was wrong earlier to suggest you need to stop his knifemaster lvls at lvl 8, with impr uncanny dodge. lvl 10 rogue gives him awesome advanced talents which you can take as a vivi with their medical discoveries. Stuff like bewildering injury & disorienting injury & dispelling strike. And considering he can also tank if properly buffed... He's just the best there is or ever was.

 

[Roguey]

Well, traditionally, we used to rule Sneak Attacks being attacks to vital organs. The idea was that the undead don't require hearts, spleens, livers, and therefore are immune to such extra organ-damage.

It's a sneak attack, not a coup de grace.

 

[vazha]

So why keep trolling if you can't put out?

Me? Trolling? I said from the beginning that i'm fine with some optional encounters requiring returning later. It's you keep asking me for something i didn't said.

But they don't require returning later. I beat both of the encounters you mentioned.

Any idea what influences the items artisans give to you? Also I wonder why some of them have stopped coming altogether with their gifts (Bokken and Maharaja lady come to mind). Based on my game, if you want a certain item for certain artisan, maybe you shouldnt hire others and milk this one until you get what you want.

They're tied to kingdom rank stats, but dunno how exactly.

In theory, they might be. I've got rank 6-7 in every stat, last time maharaja or bokken came I was in 2-3 ies.

 

[Reinhardt]

But they don't require returning later. I beat both of the encounters you mentioned.

I'm glad. Then why you keep asking for easy way to do it? You CAN defeat them but why you should have easy and reliable way to defeat them at low level? They are not supposed to be easy.

 

[Parabalus]

So why keep trolling if you can't put out?

Me? Trolling? I said from the beginning that i'm fine with some optional encounters requiring returning later. It's you keep asking me for something i didn't said.

But they don't require returning later. I beat both of the encounters you mentioned.

Any idea what influences the items artisans give to you? Also I wonder why some of them have stopped coming altogether with their gifts (Bokken and Maharaja lady come to mind). Based on my game, if you want a certain item for certain artisan, maybe you shouldnt hire others and milk this one until you get what you want.

They're tied to kingdom rank stats, but dunno how exactly.

In theory, they might be. I've got rank 6-7 in every stat, last time maharaja or bokken came I was in 2-3 ies.

I read that upgrading their artisan buildings causes them to bug out, dunno. I have a few Xs and they all seem to disappear, still getting shit items.

 

[Parabalus]

But they don't require returning later. I beat both of the encounters you mentioned.

I'm glad. Then why you keep asking for easy way to do it?

Because people here keep claiming 42 AC is easy to hit at lvl 2 and I'd like to know how?

 

[ga♥]

Artisans are heavy bugged. Same thing happened with me but with Irlene

 

[Tacgnol]

Well, traditionally, we used to rule Sneak Attacks being attacks to vital organs. The idea was that the undead don't require hearts, spleens, livers, and therefore are immune to such extra organ-damage. Yes, you can argue your point. But I still don't like it as a game balance choice. I feel that the inability to do much against undead was iconic to Rogues and removing it leads to less depth.

I understand that argument, but it really made rogues feel shit on undead or construct heavy campaigns.

I prefer the PF system where they made specific undeads and constructs immune to precision rather than as a blanket racial ability.

 

[vazha]

Artisans are heavy bugged. Same thing happened with me but with Irlene

Damn. And I specifically repeced in hopes of maharaja giving me a decent fauchard. I wonder what will happen if I ll tell other artisans to leave?

 

[Jasede]

I always thought it was kind of fun having to think out of the box to deal with that crippling weakness. Of course, yeah, I'd rather not bring a pure rogue to a heavy undead campaign unless the DM made sure I got other ways to shine: lethal traps only I can disarm, a store where I can buy holy water sling bullets, that sort of thing.

 

[Parabalus]

Artisans are heavy bugged. Same thing happened with me but with Irlene

Damn. And I specifically repeced in hopes of maharaja giving me a decent fauchard. I wonder what will happen if I ll tell other artisans to leave?

Anyone who has the items care to post their codes?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Dunno why you keep responding then, a bunch of people here claim 42 AC is easy to hit at lvl 2/3, I'd like to know how.

Nobody is forcing you to make a beeline for that encounter the moment you leave Oleg's for the first time.
A more realistic level when most people would tackle that encounter would be 4 or 5.
You ask what people did when defeating that mob yet when you're told what they did you go nah nah nah I can't hear you, also you need to fight that mob at level 1 how is that supposed to work? Checkmate!

I had an Eldritch Archer, let's see
+2 BAB (yes at lvl4 I only had magus 3, Vivi 1 so 2 BAB)
+ 5 Dex
+ 2 (cat's grace)
+ 2 dex mutagen
+1 point blank shot
+ 1 bless
+1 aid
+1 bard song
+ 3 arcane accuracy (16 int omg you could buff that with fox cunning and get another +2)
+ 1 weapon enchantment
------
19
+20 True Strike
39

But you did it at level 3 (yet continue to complain) so just subtract 1 point of BAB and 1 of arcane accuracy (because I started with INT 15 and only increased it to 16 at lvl4), then add 2 points back because I now use Fox Cunning as well. Extremely likely to hit enough?
But but but you totally have to do it at level 2 because everybody who just dinged 2 at Olegs will immediately make a beeline for this encounter. It is known. Because you cannot afford a scroll of pro electricity yet, so of course you do that thing right now, right? Derp derp derp

This mob literally does zero dmg when protection from electricity is up, so this encounter is way down on the frustration scale unlike that boar in the elk temple who tends to hit your lvl3 chars with 20-30 dmg per strike while sporting way too high AB, AC and even has concealment.

But... what if I don't want to use true strike? Checkmate!