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Pathfinder Pathfinder : Kingmaker VS Wrath of the Righteous. Which one do you prefer?

Which one do you prefer?


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    147

Pink Eye

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
Speaking of Ravenloft. In the first game the only way you could defeat Count Strahd is by using the 'Holy Symbol of Ravenkind':
qY6uK5D.png
And as is demontrated here:

Otherwise, without the Holy Symbol. There is no way to defeat the Great Vampire Lord. It's great because you can reach the vampire quite soon in your playthrough if you explore the lower levels of the Castle in which the Count resides - which means you can encounter him super early and die, die, die!
 

Yosharian

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Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity. Even with Insane monster stats and boosted stats from a mod, I still steamrolled him. Granted, he lasted more than 1 round this time.

He needs to have pre-cast buffs and have access to far more dangerous spells. Also maybe some unique spells/effects and immunities.

It wouldn't hurt if the arena you fight him in had some triggered traps that immobilized party members for example or something else similar to that.

This whole fight is always a let-down and it's sad because the dungeon itself is fairly good.
 
Joined
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Owlbears are another aspect of Owlcat arbitrary buffs as the standard Owlbear should have 19 STR where the ones in their games have 28 or 30 STR on normal difficulty. Owlcat did this stuff in Kingmaker in quite a few places. It just got much worse in Wrath.

Owlbears are a CR 4 enemy, which means they'd be an appropriate foe to face for a party of 4-5 level 4 characters. You fight the boss owlbear at level 8-10 or so I think? Obviously it needs to be stronger. Though I do wish Owlcat had done some more comprehensive encounter design changes rather than just inflating stats so that boss enemies have brokenly high AB and Damage.

Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity. Even with Insane monster stats and boosted stats from a mod, I still steamrolled him. Granted, he lasted more than 1 round this time.

Yeah he's a joke. Meanwhile the ghosts he summons on level 1 can force you to kite for 10 mins if you didn't know what was going on and ended up in a bad 1v1 fight. He needs both more enemies in his fight and some pre buffs.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Owlbears are another aspect of Owlcat arbitrary buffs as the standard Owlbear should have 19 STR where the ones in their games have 28 or 30 STR on normal difficulty. Owlcat did this stuff in Kingmaker in quite a few places. It just got much worse in Wrath.

Owlbears are a CR 4 enemy, which means they'd be an appropriate foe to face for a party of 4-5 level 4 characters.
They're not boss enemies. They're regular enemies you fight multiple at a time. There's only one boss owlbear. That's after you fight dozens of owlbears. You even fight one as a level 2-3 character in the Temple of the Elk. The issue is that you're supposed to run into them more in the second book and around the end of the first. That's for characters who are around level 4. You're supposed to be around level 4 after defeating the Staglord. The adventure path is also intended for Pathfinder 2nd edition rules instead of the generally bloated and broken 1st edition rules. On top of that, Troll Trouble is the end of the second book which is supposed to be followed immediately by Varnhold Vanishing.

Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity. Even with Insane monster stats and boosted stats from a mod, I still steamrolled him. Granted, he lasted more than 1 round this time.

He needs to have pre-cast buffs and have access to far more dangerous spells. Also maybe some unique spells/effects and immunities.

It wouldn't hurt if the arena you fight him in had some triggered traps that immobilized party members for example or something else similar to that.

This whole fight is always a let-down and it's sad because the dungeon itself is fairly good.
Maybe if you didn't minmax everything, it would be reasonable. The adventure paths are intended for players who actually create characters with along the lines of a variety of character themes who don't dump stats because they can dip two levels into paladin or take a feat that turns dex into damage. It's also designed for players who are actually roleplaying, something that video games really aren't good at. Any sensible GM doesn't allow the dumps needed to minmax unless they're playing a campaign intended for that and even then they would enforce the fact that an INT dump makes the character practically incapable of completing certain tasks and restricts their vocabulary to that of a simpleton (no more allowing the player to solve puzzles and no more being a cleric which requires reading) or that dumping WIS would coincide with fairly erratic behavior leading. These are things this game doesn't check for and Owlcat seems unwilling to reduce the scope of their games as well as commit the necessary development time (much more than a year or year and a half) to actually make a simulation of the tabletop game rather than just something plopped out full of gamebreaking bugs needing a year of patches to fix.

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In tabletop a GM should be creative enough to implement the entirety of Vordekai's arsenal of spells and abilities to provide a challenge as well. Something Owlcat has never committed the time to develop AI for and likely never will.
 
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Yosharian

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So I should hamstring my creativity and enjoyment from creating effective builds because the game doesn't have a challenging difficulty level?

Ok I guess
 

Yosharian

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As for your moronic argument about dumping stats, none of my characters have less than 10 INT and I could easily make it so that none of them have less than 10 WIS/CHA without impacting on their effectiveness whatsoever.
 

Yosharian

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Lastly role-playing, it is a great fallacy that role-playing means you have to take less effective builds, or that dipping classes automatically means you are role-playing wrong.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
So I should hamstring my creativity and enjoyment from creating effective builds because the game doesn't have a challenging difficulty level?

Ok I guess
Multiclass is a thing that would have been done in tabletop according to particular character and the events. A monk isn't going to suddenly pick up sorcerer levels because you want to have a melee caster unless events literally happen to justify the acquisition of sorcerer levels. Second, only singleclassing is not going to hamstring your creativity. Restricting to singleclass can force you to be more creative with the build since you have limited your options to what can be normally acquired within that class rather than deciding to dip into monk out of the blue if you want more AC/free feat, paladin for higher saves, or vivisectionist for mutagen and sneak attack die.

As for your moronic argument about dumping stats,
I explained why exactly dumping stats is nothing but abusing the overall lack of development in this game. Dumping is pretty much nothing but abuse of the game's deficiencies.
none of my characters have less than 10 INT
So what about your character's int? Dumping int is still common in builds so it deserves a mention and as mentioned, the game does not punish it.
I could easily make it so that none of them have less than 10 WIS/CHA without impacting on their effectiveness whatsoever.
Then don't dump if there's no reason to.

Lastly role-playing, it is a great fallacy that role-playing means you have to take less effective builds, or that dipping classes automatically means you are role-playing wrong.
It's not a fallacy. Roleplaying means taking actions with a character according to what happens in game. It's an important part of a ROLEPLAYING game.

Nothing happens within the game's story or any character's personal development in most cases to justify multi-classing so it simply shouldn't be done. That's what roleplaying is. The scenarios and events the GM presents can lead to a fighter picking up some wizard levels or perhaps the campaigns starts at level 3 and a wizard character gets a little bit of combat training via a fighter level. But the character doesn't pick up Eldritch Knight levels unless the character actively seeks out training related to it in their downtime are coinciding with contact with a specific characters who provide the instruction in the campaign questline.

Another example is an evil cleric or maybe fallen paladin getting the ability to become blackguard after making a pact with an evil outsider that they came into contact with in the questline or purposely sought out and the player roleplayed through it in game. Still, the multiclass can happen. It just requires things to actually happen in game to justify it. That's part of roleplaying.

Something like weapon master build given that the character is played that way up to the point where they can get access to it the weapon master class is fairly appropriate for a fighter since its along the lines of what the corresponding character normally does anyways. So that would be roleplaying.

Starting as a scaled fist, then picking up two paladin levels for divine favor, then four thug levels because it's optimal, then a 3 two-handed fighter levels, a sword saint level for the free proficiency, two archeologist levels, then four dragon disciple levels, and finally four freebooter levels for example isn't roleplaying since nothing happens in game to justify why the character would pick up those levels. The likelihood for example is that the character would lose his paladin abilities as maintaining all those other class related skills would cause him to neglect his duties. To get the abilities back, he'd have to do some attonement and return to his duties which cause him to neglect studies that would hinder his archeology skills. Finally, Dragon Disc may not even be appropriate for the archeologist as bards do not rely on bloodlines.

Bardic Valerie is another example, it's a convenient build but it has nothing to do with her character. It's contrary to her character since she departed from anything related to that when she became a fallen paladin (she probably should've started at 2nd level with a dead paladin level and then the fighter level as her second level). Plus she dislikes that type of thing. So the bard build is not role-playing since it contradicts the character.
 

EdgyRightWinger

Educated
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An INT dump makes the character practically incapable of completing certain tasks and restricts their vocabulary to that of a simpleton (no more allowing the player to solve puzzles and no more being a cleric which requires reading)

Roughly speaking, each point of INT is worth 5 points of IQ. So 7 INT (normal minimum in Kingmaker) equals 85 IQ. That's not too bad, there are tens of millions of Americans that dumb, and most of them can drive a car and read at a 5th grade level or so.

Multiclass is a thing that would have been done in tabletop according to particular character and the events. A monk isn't going to suddenly pick up sorcerer levels because you want to have a melee caster unless events literally happen to justify the acquisition of sorcerer levels. Second, only singleclassing is not going to hamstring your creativity. Restricting to singleclass can force you to be more creative with the build since you have limited your options to what can be normally acquired within that class rather than deciding to dip into monk out of the blue if you want more AC/free feat, paladin for higher saves, or vivisectionist for mutagen and sneak attack die.

So realistically what happens in a PNP game when your Paladin of Irori joins the Scaled Fists at level three, and then trains Archaeologist for a couple levels, and then his draconic heritage manifests for four levels, and then a couple levels of fighter for the feats, and then back to the Scaled Fists for another feat... at what point does the GM say "fuck you, no" and tear up your character sheet?
 

Yosharian

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So realistically what happens in a PNP game when your Paladin of Irori joins the Scaled Fists at level three, and then trains Archaeologist for a couple levels, and then his draconic heritage manifests for four levels, and then a couple levels of fighter for the feats, and then back to the Scaled Fists for another feat... at what point does the GM say "fuck you, no" and tear up your character sheet?
Yeah because people in real life (or in other fictional media) never try to juggle multiple professions/disciplines

So unrealistic
 
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Yosharian

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The Bride from Kill Bill:
- martial artist, Kung Fu specialist
- trained assassin
- adept with throwing knives and knives in general
- has some monk-like abilities as demonstrated in many scenes
- extremely proficient with katanas

Gandalf from LOTR:
- master wizard
- extremely adept with sword & staff
- has many druid-like abilities such as being able to speak with animals
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Gandalf from LOTR:
- master wizard
- extremely adept with sword & staff
- has many druid-like abilities such as being able to speak with animals

Gandalf is a GODLIKE being and clearly an OP DM PC. Not exactly the best example, and he is also not as good in marksmanship as Legolas and not so resistant to corruption of the ring as Frodo. He has a good point through, multiclassing should have a story explanation for the character. For example, you as a random specialist mage from a village can get Red Red Wizard of Thay levels in NWN2 despite never been into Thay. It makes absolute zero sense, is like a French guy who was never into Britain getting British nobility titles...
 

Yosharian

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Gandalf from LOTR:
- master wizard
- extremely adept with sword & staff
- has many druid-like abilities such as being able to speak with animals

Gandalf is a GODLIKE being and clearly an OP DM PC. Not exactly the best example, and he is also not as good in marksmanship as Legolas and not so resistant to corruption of the ring as Frodo. He has a good point through, multiclassing should have a story explanation for the character. For example, you as a random specialist mage from a village can get Red Red Wizard of Thay levels in NWN2 despite never been into Thay. It makes absolute zero sense, is like a French guy who was never into Britain getting British nobility titles...
Well ok that's true, but you get my general point. And yeah I agree that extreme multiclassing in PnP should be backed by reasonable role-playing explanations.

But this is a CRPG.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Vordakai is extremely underpowered to the point of absurdity. Even with Insane monster stats and boosted stats from a mod, I still steamrolled him. Granted, he lasted more than 1 round this time.

He needs to have pre-cast buffs and have access to far more dangerous spells. Also maybe some unique spells/effects and immunities.

It wouldn't hurt if the arena you fight him in had some triggered traps that immobilized party members for example or something else similar to that.

This whole fight is always a let-down and it's sad because the dungeon itself is fairly good.
He's a shadow of his former self due to the 10,000 years thing and you're supposed to be barely alive yourself after having gotten unexpectedly locked into what turns out to be a pretty long and eventful tomb with limited supplies (and thus rests).

Not really fair to judge it after you know what's coming.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
So realistically what happens in a PNP game when your Paladin of Irori joins the Scaled Fists at level three, and then trains Archaeologist for a couple levels, and then his draconic heritage manifests for four levels, and then a couple levels of fighter for the feats, and then back to the Scaled Fists for another feat... at what point does the GM say "fuck you, no" and tear up your character sheet?
He should have stopped you from nerfing your character so badly in the first place.
 
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He's a shadow of his former self due to the 10,000 years thing

If you start trying to treat the world as it would be realistically then you have to question everyone's level, e.g. who in their right mind sent level 1 assassins in the prologue, or how has the Stag Lord survived so long as ruler when 6 months later vastly stronger creatures are overrunning everything immediately.


and you're supposed to be barely alive yourself after having gotten unexpectedly locked into what turns out to be a pretty long and eventful tomb with limited supplies (and thus rests).

Would have been trivial to include a 1-use rest station of some kind near the end of the dungeon. Also they specifically included a "fuck you" in the form of the ghosts that your party members have to 1v1, anyone who came in with an improper build for that and answered the wrong character either has to rest or even reload before the dungeon entirely (if they somehow had a completely non-combat character).
 

Darth Canoli

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Pathfinder : Kingmaker VS Wrath of the Righteous. Which one do you prefer?


None of the above.
Divinity Original Sin (first half is decent/good enough for a single playthrough) > Pillows of Eternity (less than decent but still) > Kingmaker > Wrath of the Trannies.

Kingmaker could have been good with a regular Dark Sun/Baldur's Gate 1/ Temple of elemental Evil structure.
  • No kingdom aka wasting the player's time
  • Tone down the traveling shenanigans, aka, each region leads to the next one like in Dark Sun and BG.
  • Better in-game help like ToEE / KotC / KotC 2
  • Easier to use and read character creation and development, more classes, les (or no) subclasses. It's really, it's painful. KotC 2 (character development and encounter design) and Dark Sun: Shattered Lands (world and map design, quest design) should be the model if they ever want to make another RPG.
 

perfectslumbers

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I like Kingmakers setting and classic adventure feel better. If another game like Kingmaker came out without it's flaws it would probably end up my favourite rpg ever. As it is it's still great and will live in my heart for a long time. As for WOTR it's close, I really enjoyed the games overt tumblr faggotry and all the extra classes and races and other options add a lot to a game using the Pathfinder ruleset but it's also a messy game with some truly awful sections. It's been a long time since release so perhaps those sections have been fixed in the same way House at the Edge of Time in Kingmaker has been fixed, considering the amount of bugs I hear about the game still suffering from I kind of doubt it's reached that level of polish yet.
 

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