Pathfinder: Kingmaker's combat is more of a clusterfuck than Deadfire's

[fantadomat]

I see that tag is correctly applied to you then, since you told me that I should be playing PoE 2 on it to make the game less tedious.

Can we get an intellectual dishonesty tag?

 

[GloomFrost]

Pathfinder is the best party based RPG in years. Its understandable if you dont like it but using POE 2 of all games as an example how it should be done..... come on man. Also people above already showed that some turn based games can be even more clusterfuck when its impossible to see what is going on (OS, Numanuma)

 

[Sharpedge]

I see that tag is correctly applied to you then, since you told me that I should be playing PoE 2 on it to make the game less tedious.

Can we get an intellectual dishonesty tag?

RTwP is shit. End of Story. Good day.

The funny thing is I wasn't even saying anything for or against turn based or RTwP and in fact, when I had the option to switch to turn based in Pillars I did. You were the one who specifically mentioned RTwP in your responses to me, but then went and edited it out because you realized it kind of reflected poorly on your own argument and looked like you were telling me that RTwP is how I should be playing. Too bad I caught your post before you got in the edits.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

People still waste their time arguing with this guy?

 

[Sharpedge]

People still waste their time arguing with this guy?

I just like arguing, anyone will do.

 

[Yosharian]

You really are a muppet, Safav.

 

[hpstg]

Ironically, some of the easiest to read games are non - pausable, with tens of units on screen at a time, like Diablo 3 or StarCraft 2.

Rtwp or turn based are irrelevant in readability. Budget and art department talent is the only thing that matters.

 

[Wunderbar]

RTwP is objectively garbage. It's a worse version of both RTS games and TB strategy games.

i thought you liked deadfire even before turn-based update.

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

Pathfinder actually has some neat Combat, in particular in smaller scale battles. But, like all Nu-RtWP games, it's based on mechanics that either way ARE (Pathfinder) or desperately wanted to be (…) TB before realizing they had actually promised a BG-like in their Kickstarter pitches, a game that was based on simplified AD&D 2nd Edition, which in itself was in many ways a more simple affair. Once things reach a certain king of complexity and busyness, the hybrid that is RtwP does neither inherit the strengths of real-time, which is its visceral straight-forwardness; nor the tactical Depth of TB, but rather the worst of both worlds. You can improve and tune visual Feedback all you want. It won't change a thing about all those rolls being resolved, AoEs being cast, abilities used and status effects being switched on/off simultaneously.


At least at Obsidian it slowly seems to sink in, given how they seem to gradually reduce their Party sizes -- as well as patching in TB modes suggested by System Designers that clearly would have prefered to go TB from the start.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Ironically, some of the easiest to read games are non - pausable, with tens of units on screen at a time, like Diablo 3 or StarCraft 2.

Rtwp or turn based are irrelevant in readability. Budget and art department talent is the only thing that matters.

I played diablo 3 for a while and had no fucking idea what was happening 90% of the time because my screen was full of explosion effects, it's a common problem in basically every left click simulator game

 

[purpleblob]

My experience with Kingmaker

There is the main problem - your experience as a retard

 

[RaptorRex888]

The need on here to constantly shit on PoE and continually state how much you hate it is just fucking tiring. We get it - balance man bad.

 

[Neanderthal]

The need on here to constantly shit on PoE and continually state how much you hate it is just fucking tiring. We get it - balance man bad.

If it generates butthurt then it has worth.

 

[Cael]

However Pathfinder(and DnD for that matter) is a system designed around the idea of turn based, making it into RTwP is just unnecessary and pointless.

Here's a quote from Kingmaker's lead director defending the decision not to go turn based (PorkyThePaladin)

Turn-based battles are attention hogs. It takes a lot of time to finish one and there are many battles to be fought. Since they take up so much time and attention, these battles have to be different and unique, and that makes the game too combat-oriented for our taste.

"...there are many battles to be fought..." swiftly followed by "...makes the game too combat-oriented..."

Actually, this one got me thinking a bit. Games like XCom, Fallout Tactics, and the like are very combat oriented. Even ToEE, BG, IWD/IWD2 and Gold Box games are. Yet, when I complete the games, I often wish the game was much, much longer.

The argument that TB is bad because it takes up too much time and attention is, to me, a complete nonsense.

 

[razvedchiki]

Freezing stills from game = clusterfuck.
/Thread.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Dungeon Siege 1 combat >>> nuTurnBased Combat (KOTC2 is an exception from this).

 

[Circuit the Short]

Action <<< RTwP <<<<< turn-based <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< simultaneous turn resolution

Spoiler

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< card combat

 

[Nifft Batuff]

turn-based >>> RTwP <<< first person shooter

 

[Circuit the Short]

turn-based >>> RTwP <<< first person shooter <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< puzzle minigames

 

[Divine Blessing]

what seems as a "clusterfuck" to some, is a nuanced choreography to others.

while completely understanding the visual (and emotional) confusion RT(w)P may cause, there is exclusively one felt difference to TBC.
this singular difference is the felt simultanity of "action execution" in RTP, which is just a feeling, cuz action (execution) hierarchy is still determined by initiative (and stats etc.) as in TBC.

there r no theoretical differences to TBC, cuz RTP still is turn-based.
in Pathfinder press (iirc) V to progress combat turnbased and enter commands at start of every round. also there is (and shoud be stardard) an option to reduce visual "clutter gradually.

although personal preference is TBC, it didnt save PoE2 to fall before the epicness of Pathfinder Kingmaker.

 

[Kruno]

However Pathfinder(and DnD for that matter) is a system designed around the idea of turn based, making it into RTwP is just unnecessary and pointless.

Here's a quote from Kingmaker's lead director defending the decision not to go turn based (PorkyThePaladin)

Turn-based battles are attention hogs. It takes a lot of time to finish one and there are many battles to be fought. Since they take up so much time and attention, these battles have to be different and unique, and that makes the game too combat-oriented for our taste.

"...there are many battles to be fought..." swiftly followed by "...makes the game too combat-oriented..."

Actually, this one got me thinking a bit. Games like XCom, Fallout Tactics, and the like are very combat oriented. Even ToEE, BG, IWD/IWD2 and Gold Box games are. Yet, when I complete the games, I often wish the game was much, much longer.

The argument that TB is bad because it takes up too much time and attention is, to me, a complete nonsense.

The issue with TB mode taking too long is because games do not run the sim. before drawing the graphics. I have created a TB simulators with over 10,000 NPCs taking turns. Here is the trick. Let the simulator do all steps for a turn and then draw the result to the graphics device. Problem solved! Turning off animations would make it far better for TB PoE2.

 

[Lacrymas]

There must be a skip animation button. TB battles won't take forever if that is always implemented. Some rogue-likes have much bigger battles than either PoE or P:K but take a fraction of that time because there are either no animations or you can skip them. I also know the TCG-like Etherlords 2 also has a skip animation button and you don't have to wait forever to look at your units attacking. Why developers don't do this is beyond me.

 

[Cael]

There must be a skip animation button. TB battles won't take forever if that is always implemented. Some rogue-likes have much bigger battles than either PoE or P:K but take a fraction of that time because there are either no animations or you can skip them. I also know the TCG-like Etherlords 2 also has a skip animation button and you don't have to wait forever to look at your units attacking. Why developers don't do this is beyond me.

Because they tend to be inordinately proud of their graphics and want to force people to see them as much as possible. Arrogance is pretty much a given when it comes to the modern games developer.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Yet, when I complete the games, I often wish the game was much, much longer.

This has happened to me with an RPG only once. The vast majority are much too long, even the good ones.

 

[fantadomat]

Action <<< RTwP <<<<< turn-based <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< simultaneous turn resolution

Spoiler

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< card combat

real life combat trumps everything else
Igor bring me the axe!